Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Silent Wolf]

"Its not like you can shield grab it either"

It was very shield grabbable...that's all I have to say. Everything else you said is true, but that's not the point.

Typical smashboards, let's insult the other guy when we don't know enough about the game to tell when pressure is shield grabbable or not.

Edit:

Drill grabs do work, yes.

Regardless of it being shield grabbable or not (and I've never seen anyone get grabbed out of doing it legitly, ie basically only mango and sometimes lovage), its still prob not gonna happen. People who aren't used to that kind of pressure won't be able to time the grab at all, let alone expect it and even have a solid attempt at the grab, and if they miss the first grab its pretty much over for grabbing during that pressure sequence. Go ahead and play your super theory bros with the rest of the fox noobs, but even pp never grabs mango out of that pressure, so I would hardly call it terrible.

You cannot grab after the nair if you time it like lovagge did and do the shine perfectly, and they can mix it up and do an aerial right away after the shine a few times in if you feel they're catching on. Aka shine nair shine nair shine instant dair or w/e else. That's what mango does tho. The fact that you can hold them there pretty reliably and have answers for the grab (the ONLY thing shiek could do, if she even can) could be enough to scare a good player into rolling away from the ledge, a common situation in itself.

 

[eternisedDragon]

Hi there Smashboards,
I´m fairly new here, yet I´ve been playing Melee for about 2 years - I didn´t compete in a lot of tournies though ( I live in Germany ...). I love Melee, but my brother quit a Month ago. Luckily I was able to capture some games before that happened.
I would really appreciate any advice (I´m the fox player). You might want to remove the sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cATA8M5_lIg&feature=youtu.be
Actually I know attacking when hanging on the edge is not a good choice. Though it isn´t shown in the video I really do abuse my edgedash a lot... yeah, I know no johns..
And yes, spamming techskill is most certainly necessary, lol.
Quick shout out to Xyzz - I know you´re readin´ this; and a big time hi to the fellow foxmains. And I want a response (you know what to do) : Mango....

 

[BTmoney]

Hi there Smashboards,
I´m fairly new here, yet I´ve been playing Melee for about 2 years - I didn´t compete in a lot of tournies though ( I live in Germany ...). I love Melee, but my brother quit a Month ago. Luckily I was able to capture some games before that happened.
I would really appreciate any advice (I´m the fox player). You might want to remove the sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cATA8M5_lIg&feature=youtu.be
Actually I know attacking when hanging on the edge is not a good choice. Though it isn´t shown in the video I really do abuse my edgedash a lot... yeah, I know no johns..
And yes, spamming techskill is most certainly necessary, lol.
Quick shout out to Xyzz - I know you´re readin´ this; and a big time hi to the fellow foxmains. And I want a response (you know what to do) : Mango....

that video seems to be private

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Question regarding drill grabs - do they work? I think I remember reading Silent Wolf saying Fox should do it against characters that waveshine is ineffective on. Is it only something that could work from conditioning the other player to fear the shine?

drill grabs generally combo if you do them correctly (lcancel and start your grab on time).

You may notice that grab and fox's usmash have the same startup time, 7 frames. Before you ask, yes drill->usmash does work -- sometimes. Because drill is a series of alternating hitboxes (2 frames on, 1 frame off) the exact frame advantage fox has when landing changes. Weight also is a factor; heavier characters take less hitstun, lighter characters take more. If you're trolling a noob jigglypuff or happen to play fox vs a G&W or pichu, feel free to try drill->usmash a few times (it'll work if the stars align )

Drill->grab works a little better than drill->usmash for one big reason: grab goes through shield. The number 1 reason drill->usmash will not work is because people will hold shield. Except against another spacie (who can shine frame 1), the fastest option to avoid the grab after drill is to spotdodge. A buffered spotdodge will have 2 extra frames where the grab can connect before it has invincibility, and a buffered roll generally has 5 extra frames to exploit. Because grab can beat shield and grab during the startup of rolls and spotdodges, on top of the fact that it does combo truly, means that drill->grab is easy and consistent to connect with (as opposed to drill->usmash)

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Thank you for the grimoire of knowledge kk
Thank you for telling drugged fox to go poop on his own chest Otto
Thank you for being an entity in this universe toph. Gonna go watch girls und panzer

 

[Jim Morrison]

Hi there Smashboards,
I´m fairly new here, yet I´ve been playing Melee for about 2 years - I didn´t compete in a lot of tournies though ( I live in Germany ...). I love Melee, but my brother quit a Month ago. Luckily I was able to capture some games before that happened.
I would really appreciate any advice (I´m the fox player). You might want to remove the sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cATA8M5_lIg&feature=youtu.be
Actually I know attacking when hanging on the edge is not a good choice. Though it isn´t shown in the video I really do abuse my edgedash a lot... yeah, I know no johns..
And yes, spamming techskill is most certainly necessary, lol.
Quick shout out to Xyzz - I know you´re readin´ this; and a big time hi to the fellow foxmains. And I want a response (you know what to do) : Mango....

Do you go to tournaments? If not, do so and get to know other players who you can meet up with instead of just your brother, German smash scene is pretty okay as far as I know.
You're way better than I expected, you have nice tricks up your sleeve and solid tech skill. The problem is that you often take bad openings and make bad decisions.
Especially on approaching, you're approaching too straight forward, running in and using N-air. There was someone asking advice on Fox vs Sheik with his vid and toph gave some solid advice about neutral game, you should read up on that, it's on the last page.

First game you were solid and if the rest of the games are like this, you're gonna have to bring vids of you getting beaten instead of 2-3-stocking people, there's not much advice to give on that.

You're making good decisions on recovering. I'll refrain from giving advice now, I think you're a better player than me judging from these vids.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Typical smashboards, let's insult the other guy when we don't know enough about x

tbh this sounds exactly what you did in your last few posts lol

btw <3 stab!! who is an actual good player unliked druggedwackfox (burn) Lemme know how you like G&P ^_^

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik can nair OOS on that easily and I'd probably get you.

 

[4 Aces]

Hi there Smashboards,
I´m fairly new here, yet I´ve been playing Melee for about 2 years - I didn´t compete in a lot of tournies though ( I live in Germany ...). I love Melee, but my brother quit a Month ago. Luckily I was able to capture some games before that happened.
I would really appreciate any advice (I´m the fox player). You might want to remove the sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cATA8M5_lIg&feature=youtu.be
Actually I know attacking when hanging on the edge is not a good choice. Though it isn´t shown in the video I really do abuse my edgedash a lot... yeah, I know no johns..
And yes, spamming techskill is most certainly necessary, lol.
Quick shout out to Xyzz - I know you´re readin´ this; and a big time hi to the fellow foxmains. And I want a response (you know what to do) : Mango....

Your dash dances can be kind of weird at times. Sometimes it's completely out of distance, and doesn't seem to serve a purpose, other than maybe to warm your fingers (I also noticed you trying to do that shai drop though. ). Ex: In one of your matches where you were dash dancing waaay out of distance, and Sheik was just needle camping you on the side. And you kept doing it too, taking 2 or 3 needle throws before both of you guys got bored and ran in.

Other times when you dash danced though, looked alright. You just missed the follow up a few times; like, when you dd, and tried to go for a grab or something -- you either missed or dashed the wrong way and grabbed the other direction.

When you fight near the edge (while they're hanging onto the ledge), sometimes you like to do that thing that I like to do, where you try to "pressure" them with shines on the ledge, then run off next to them and shine them then double jump back on stage. I don't think that really works, just taking that from personal experience. I'd try to develop some other kind of tactic instead of that one.

Your Fox is strong technically though.

 

[omgwtfToph]

eternisedDragon: STOP NAIRING IN FRONT OF OPPONENT Pls

 

[Bones0]

I mean, of course Sheik can grab that pressure. No matter how you time nair-shine pressure you will always be vulnerable to a grab (unless you only do nair-shine-nair and fade away). The catch is that the player basically has to guess when to grab, and when they're pinned at the ledge, guessing wrong will lead to an edgeguard. Tope still could have done other stuff. Nair like KK said, or even safer, lightshield and DI onto the ledge, or WD backwards OoS onto the ledge and then ledgedash immediately. But alas, people are afraid of ledgedashing so they roll.

Except against another spacie (who can shine frame 1), the fastest option to avoid the grab after drill is to spotdodge.

Yoshi could parry frame 1.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Nair OOS attempt after Fox's aerial is probably the best thing to do in that situation cuz even if you get shined, you're off the ground and shine pushes you back to the ground so you can act immediately (well, in that situation you'd get pushed to the ledge; that's fine too)

But yeah. That clip isn't impressive because oscar did something frame-perfect or whatever, it's impressive because he scared the **** out of his opponent and then caught him in a moment of weakness with a REALLY ****ing ballsy call. Aka caught him slippin. Melee aint played in a vacuum

 

[Lovage]

druggedfox u are a joke sorry dude

i'd bet $50 on L rolling you in fox dittos btw

 

[Bones0]

Evo Grudge Matches:

Kage vs. Westballz
L vs. Druggedfox

 

[Silent Wolf]

Sheik can nair OOS on that easily and I'd probably get you.

Really? Either way, my point still stands, that if they've not experienced that pressure they ain't doing **** reliably.

 

[omgwtfToph]

*throws up west coast*

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, watching West Coast makes me want to throw up too.

 

[omgwtfToph]

white nerd alert

 

[Bones0]

white nerd alert

Please don't make this about race. Those wounds cut deep, man.

 

[Deleted member]

But yeah. That clip isn't impressive because oscar did something frame-perfect or whatever, it's impressive because he scared the **** out of his opponent and then caught him in a moment of weakness with a REALLY ****ing ballsy call. Aka caught him slippin. Melee aint played in a vacuum

It's not impressive, it's just bad. It's unnecessarily risky behavior in a game where risk management is a thing and you're validating sub-optimal play. Why you would encourage play that would get him a game loss vs a better player is something that I do not understand and I'm sure druggedfox has the same idea. Do you understand this mode of thinking here? It is a strict tactical disadvantage compared to some unknown number of permutations of decisions that he could have done instead with less risk. Personal attacks aside (and why would you attack a rational point of view to begin with really), it's probably misleading and a disservice to encourage your friends to play in a way that gets them beaten by better players. You can still beat people with bad tactics but you're only hurting yourself in the long run playing that way by unnecessarily lowering your win rate. This has nothing to do with how good of a player druggedfox is or any of that crap.

 

[Diakonos]

Syntactic ambiguity? Unacceptable, Toph. BTW is there a statistic about how many people on smashboards are nerdy white guys? Just curious.

edit:// some people play for more than an "optimal" stream of permutations. They might consider that a "suboptimal" choice is actually the more fun way to play this video game.

 

[Engo]

It got him the kill who cares lol. Lovage was a good enough player to know that it probably wasn't the most optimal choice but he went for it anyway and he was rewarded for it... and das wassup

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

wow the fox boards so chill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNr7my0wWw

can always count on some sick track from fox mains
#lifeofaspaceanimal

@bones you going to xanadu, im making it my first tourney
is it june? i joined the fb group but every1 so far away in SoVa

im going to put in work doe, im pumped and learning smarts but di dude,
somebody hella needs to make a di thread preferably westballz.

 

[Bones0]

wow the fox boards so chill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNr7my0wWw

can always count on some sick track from fox mains
#lifeofaspaceanimal

@bones you going to xanadu, im making it my first tourney
is it june? i joined the fb group but every1 so far away in SoVa

im going to put in work doe, im pumped and learning smarts but di dude,
somebody hella needs to make a di thread preferably westballz.

No idea when the next one is, but I'm probably going.

 

[Deleted member]

edit:// some people play for more than an "optimal" stream of permutations. They might consider that a "suboptimal" choice is actually the more fun way to play this video game.

Sure and that's fine, just don't advertise it to others as if it is the tournament ideal. Even if you're into an ego circle-jerk with your friends, it's still misleading to others. All DF did was call it for what it was.

 

[Diakonos]

Sure and that's fine, just don't advertise it to others as if it is the tournament ideal. Even if you're into an ego circle-jerk with your friends, it's still misleading to others. All DF did was call it for what it was.

"Suboptimal" =/= "mind-blowingly bad". I also don't recall anyone calling it a tournament ideal; it was a cool option and it worked. In this case, it was effective and many people enjoyed the style, too. So is it an "ego circle-jerk"? Not at all. I'm not sure this kind of overdetermined language helps your credibility.

 

[Deleted member]

hmm, fair point to both. no arguments.

 

[Dr Peepee]

this thread is hype

 

[Deleted member]

this thread is hype

-everyone immediately stops posting-

 

[omgwtfToph]

It's not impressive, it's just bad. It's unnecessarily risky behavior in a game where risk management is a thing and you're validating sub-optimal play. Why you would encourage play that would get him a game loss vs a better player is something that I do not understand and I'm sure druggedfox has the same idea. Do you understand this mode of thinking here? It is a strict tactical disadvantage compared to some unknown number of permutations of decisions that he could have done instead with less risk. Personal attacks aside (and why would you attack a rational point of view to begin with really), it's probably misleading and a disservice to encourage your friends to play in a way that gets them beaten by better players. You can still beat people with bad tactics but you're only hurting yourself in the long run playing that way by unnecessarily lowering your win rate. This has nothing to do with how good of a player druggedfox is or any of that crap.

no **** it wasn't optimal ROFL

it was pretty suboptimal and it was also ****ing swag

also, google "straw man argument"

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Toph your posts are so much funnier to read after having seen you commentate and know your personality a bit better. I used to think you were just a ****, now I know you're just joking/having fun or whatever

Smashboards suck when you are talking to strangers.

 

[omgwtfToph]

LOOOL We should hang out in person sometime so you can get the full experience <3

wow the fox boards so chill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwNr7my0wWw

can always count on some sick track from fox mains
#lifeofaspaceanimal

word to this. honestly SW/Lovage have introduced me to a lot of sick hiphop lol

 

[Silent Wolf]

It's not impressive, it's just bad. It's unnecessarily risky behavior in a game where risk management is a thing and you're validating sub-optimal play. Why you would encourage play that would get him a game loss vs a better player is something that I do not understand and I'm sure druggedfox has the same idea. Do you understand this mode of thinking here? It is a strict tactical disadvantage compared to some unknown number of permutations of decisions that he could have done instead with less risk. Personal attacks aside (and why would you attack a rational point of view to begin with really), it's probably misleading and a disservice to encourage your friends to play in a way that gets them beaten by better players. You can still beat people with bad tactics but you're only hurting yourself in the long run playing that way by unnecessarily lowering your win rate. This has nothing to do with how good of a player druggedfox is or any of that crap.

I wouldn't say its "just bad" lol. Obv lovage knew what he was doing. Yea, obviously that whole sequence was nowhere near optimal or even reliable, but he had a good feel for the situation. I'm looking at the pressure in the context of the situation, while you guys are talking about it it general terms. I doubt lovage or anyone does that whole scenario very often at all, if at all. It was just cuz lovage had dat feel.
Lovage having such a good sense of the situation and also having the balls to do that is what's considerable really.

Y'all are hatin. Druggedfox is weak

 

[Diakonos]

I read "sick hop"

I like it.

 

[oukd]

super feels brothers is the best

 

[eternisedDragon]

Thanks for the advices. I´ll be working on it. Till now I´ve been to 3 Tournies and every time I got my a** handed to me and I´m very eager to return the favour.

@current_thread_main_subject: I don´t know what a Druggedfox is but it surely sounds disappointing.
Why ain´t you lovin´ the Loveage pressure?
Apparently it was without a doubt the/one tool Loveage needed to make his opponent (Tope) flinch at a critical point in the game granting him victory.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I don´t know what a Druggedfox is but it surely sounds disappointing.

LMAO. SIG WORTHY. Eternised Dragon 2013.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

druggedfox knows things. i wish he played more. but marvel.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't say its "just bad" lol. Obv lovage knew what he was doing. Yea, obviously that whole sequence was nowhere near optimal or even reliable, but he had a good feel for the situation. I'm looking at the pressure in the context of the situation, while you guys are talking about it it general terms. I doubt lovage or anyone does that whole scenario very often at all, if at all. It was just cuz lovage had dat feel.
Lovage having such a good sense of the situation and also having the balls to do that is what's considerable really.

I watched a good bit more from that event and a lot of his stuff was both good and had the feels. No one is here is suggesting that Oscar doesn't know how to press the buttons. A little bit of criticism is healthy.

 

[unknown522]

Alright toph, I posted