Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[shadrach kabango]

lol i just think leffen's posting style is hilarious cuz its so unnecessarily abrasive but word on the street is that in real life he's soft as flowers.

i heard that as well jpobs. oh so silent face to face

hahahahahahaha

 

[Bones0]

I just let my 4 stocks do the talking

 

[Jethrotex]

Every June 11th we should all copy Leffen's avatar and post very exaggerated impressions of his posts.

I dub thee, Leffen Love Dai.

 

[omgwtfToph]

dash attack is the utter shiznit and leffen is da homie

Edit: I think this is my 10000th post. Can't see on my phone tho. Uhh shouts out to toph and oscar

LOL ****in sick, so glad to be part of this amazing moment in history

 

[Bing]

I rather like Dash Attack, I dont use it often so its not as expected. I like hitting them with the end of the attack, sh weak hit bair - Continue combo

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash attack will always ****

Found a good example for you, maybe you would have won this game if you did a usmash instead. It definitely punishes the away DI much harder than dash attack.

 

[shadrach kabango]

every june 11th we should all copy leffen's avatar and post very exaggerated impressions of his posts.

I dub thee, leffen love dai.

looooooooool!

 

[Silent Wolf]

Found a good example for you, maybe you would have won this game if you did a usmash instead. It definitely punishes the away DI much harder than dash attack.

youre not really making a good point here. even tho he DId away, i was still in a good position. in fact, if he had DId an usmash in, hed be in a better position than if he DId the dash attack away imo. also, youll notice that in that very same set, at about 10:31 i use dash attack in the same situation (barely catching them after an aerial) and it works great. why? cuz dash attack is ****ing fast and can catch them off guard like that. and like i said, even if they DI away youre in a great position.

theres also points where usmash/grab wont reach and dash attack will. one of the most common occurrences is after fthrow, after which ONLY dash attack works and works amazingly at that. like in this video at 2:53:10 or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyVSvXINSw

also, i could have gotten a lot more out of it (and even a legit combo) if he was at higher percent. it ***** marth and is good vs most chars.

dash attack -> uair ***** floaties. nuff said.

im not saying its not always the best option, but there are a lot of situations where it can be more useful than the moves you listed. its reaches to a certain point horizontally faster than literally all of foxes moves and simultaneously has both combo/good positioning potential if used accordingly.

edit: im also not saying dash attack is always the best in the situation you linked to. its good as a mix up with other moves like shine/usmash/whatever depending on %

edit: actually i think other stuff works after fthrow situationally. but dash attack works (combos) in a lot more places other moves dont. also dash attack can catch hella more DI than other moves basically

 

[PGH Carroll]

so i was playing against falcon today.

so when i get down thrown at the edge and they go for the drop zone only a couple times was i able to do that cheesey DI where they miss you and you can shine them but most of the time just got knee'd.

anyone good at this? knows the percents? i wanna make falcons whine

 

[Lovage]

there is no di that guarantees you shine him lol. in fact if that happens to you i'd say the falcons you're fighting are slow as **** and prolly mediocre to get shined in such a weird *** way.

just DI away from edge throws and then recover to the best of ur ability. if you don't DI away, drop zone does combo and u will die at 40 lol.



edit: not reading all the above discussion but dash attack is amazing lol

 

[Wake]

I was just going to mention dash attack-->uair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In that situation, had you usmashed and he DI'd in, he would have been directly above you and you would have had a free bair. From what I can see, dash attack is only useful as a gimmick combo: it is used to force missed techs or catch them off guard with their DI. In the case that you play someone who does not make these mistakes, dash attack is always inferior to the alternatives I suggested (assuming they can reach, which is the majority of situations).

Your counter arguments are coming from matches against floaties, which I have already admitted to being a decent use for dash attack. I was talking about comboing against fox/falco only. I think dash attack is even alright against falcon (because fox combos falcon so hard, it doesn't even matter what you hit with really, tech chasing falcon is stupidly easy).

 

[Bing]

Yeah I was gunna say Carroll just DI away otherwise you're pretty well ****ed :S

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Carroll

I think that one is mostly dependent on the Falcon's positioning and stuff.

I've seen the knee reverse, enabling Fox to wall tech > shine gimp but I think it depends mostly on how far Falcon is from the edge when he d-throws and how far he goes forward (I think he could probably counter this and similar shenanigans by holding back as he slips off into knee).

 

[unknown522]

Found a good example for you, maybe you would have won this game if you did a usmash instead. It definitely punishes the away DI much harder than dash attack.

he could've won even with the dash attack. He just decided to d-smash after which happened to miss. There were many followups he could've still gotten in that situation out of the dash attack.

 

[PGH Carroll]

ehh it was swags falcon so it sucked. it looks fuggin sweet when i get it. falcon just goes for the knee and you right under him the whole time and then shine dj and good day

 

[FrootLoop]

haha dash attack -> missed tech is sanchaz's bread and butter

 

[Silent Wolf]

he could've won even with the dash attack. He just decided to d-smash after which happened to miss. There were many followups he could've still gotten in that situation out of the dash attack.

yea that too lol. i def could have followed that up better.

usmash would not have combod into anything if he DId up or had no DI at that %, learn your percents lol. dash attack covers no DI, between none and DIing in, and sets up good if they DI away. at a lot of %s usmash would only be better in that situation if they DI away. if youre shooting for them DIing away, theres usually better options than usmash.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Even with high level players saying all of this, most Foxes end their combos in upsmash, and only dair > shine light characters. The world is a curious place.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How do you figure you can't combo from usmash if they DI straight above you? There is not a single percent where fox cannot combo fox/falco from an usmash when they DI directly above them. Either it combos into another usmash, or a uair, or a bair/nair. The proper escape from a usmash is to DI away, which at the edge is not an option.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How do you figure you can't combo from usmash if they DI straight above you? There is not a single percent where fox cannot combo fox/falco from an usmash when they DI directly above them.

999%

GG

 

[Silent Wolf]

haha i was looking at the % after the dash attack. yea if they DI in you can hit them at 66. if they DI a dash attack in at that percent you can easily get a bair when they are much lower tho, which would be significantly better imo. and if theres no platforms in the way you can do a whole lot more even

of course theres %s where usmash doesnt combo lol. get off usmashes ****

 

[unknown522]

yea that too lol. i def could have followed that up better.

usmash would not have combod into anything if he DId up or had no DI at that %, learn your percents lol. dash attack covers no DI, between none and DIing in, and sets up good if they DI away. at a lot of %s usmash would only be better in that situation if they DI away. if youre shooting for them DIing away, theres usually better options than usmash.

How do you figure you can't combo from usmash if they DI straight above you? There is not a single percent where fox cannot combo fox/falco from an usmash when they DI directly above them. Either it combos into another usmash, or a uair, or a bair/nair. The proper escape from a usmash is to DI away, which at the edge is not an option.

haha i was looking at the % after the dash attack. yea if they DI in you can hit them at 66. if they DI a dash attack in at that percent you can easily get a bair when they are much lower tho, which would be significantly better imo. and if theres no platforms in the way you can do a whole lot more even

of course theres %s where usmash doesnt combo lol. get off usmashes ****

if he DI'd inwards on a u-smash, you could definitely get a combo at that percent. But that relies on him DIing inwards.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

... seriously, when does usmash not combo?

As you pointed out, dash attack could have had the bair while they were lower vertically in the case of DI in, but a fresh uncharged usmash does 18% damage. I'm sure uair would kill vertically at that height at 84% (before the hit). For the record, first hit uair does 5% fresh and second hit does an additional 13% fresh, so after the uair hit falco would have been at 102%.

if he DI'd inwards on a u-smash, you could definitely get a combo at that percent. But that relies on him DIing inwards.

and if they DI away, usmash puts the user in a better position.

 

[unknown522]

in a better position than getting combo'd?

Also, the u-air after a u-smash at that percent wouldn't have killed despite it being yoshi's. Good combo and all, but that's just how it is.

Edit: The way wes was DIing, he wouldn't have gotten anything from u-smash anyway. Maybe a potential edgeguard (though he would be pretty high in the air anyway and not that far from the stage), but he had a sure combo out of that dash attack.

 

[bearsfan092]

Sup guys,

I've played Melee since it came out, but didn't really pay attention to competitive Melee until about a year ago. By that point, I didn't own a Gamecube, so I ended up using an emulator and an Xbox 360 Controller (relevant detail).

So on a local scale, I developed a pretty good Falco. I could SHFFL, wavedash into attacks, combo, and had at least a basic short hop laser game. I did this all on an Xbox 360 Controller, which transferred *mostly* to the Gamecube controller when I had the rare occasion to play. I still consider myself a noob though.

Anyways, I bought a Wii recently (try a week ago) pretty much as a Melee machine and was just screwing around. I actually felt like Fox was a better fit now that I had a Gamecube controller in my hands. I looked up some guides and decided to give Fox a spin. This led me to a few questions.

1. I use the right trigger to wavedash and the left one to shield. Is that a bad habit?

2. On an Xbox 360 Controller, the trigger gives less resistance than the Gamecube controller. I still wavedash pretty well, but I have a higher frequency of unintentional waveshields because I'm pressing down harder on the trigger. This presents a problem when learning to waveshine, as it slows down your ability to shine. I've reduced the frequency of waveshields through practice, but does anyone have any particular tips to get my finger off the trigger faster?

3. Since I already had a lot of the basics like SHFFL down, I only had to adapt them to Fox, which is taking less time than learning it outright. As such, I decided to move on to Fox's bread and butter: the waveshine. I've been practicing against level 1 computers on Final Destination. Here's the question: Particularly against Marth and Luigi, I'm finding I have to wavedash twice to catch up with their knockback. If ">" represents a wavedash, it looks like Shine>>Shine>>Shine>>Usmash. Against someone like Peach, it's Shine>Shine>Shine>Usmash or similar. I know the difference in distance is due to traction, but am I cheating myself by wavedashing twice? Should I be able to do it in one wavedash? Perhaps I should Shine>Dash>Shine>Dash>Usmash? Also, is the setup I'm using (level 1 computers on FD) the best waveshine practice outside of a human?

4. This isn't really Fox specific, but I've gotten into a habit of using A for most of my aerials (nairs are my best friend). I do use the C-stick for retreating aerials or for forward-flying bairs. Should I ween myself off using A except for nairs?

These are definitely nooby questions, but thanks for answering them.

 

[Silent Wolf]

usmash stops comboing around 66 unless they DI in, then it takes a bit more for it not to combo. if they dont DI at 66, you might be able to barely get a fair in or something.

spacies never seem to DI in in that situation for me anyways. usually its no DI or something close to it, so dash attack works well at first. then i mix it up (or should lol)

 

[PGH Carroll]

playing this game on a 360 controller is a sin. and you will burn in hell.

dash attack up tilt works at every % ever. best option. all the time

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What combo does fox have on a falco who DIs a dash attack at the lip of the stage away? None. At best, he has an edgeguard, but most likely falco is still threatening the edge with his jump. Usmash solves those problems.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It is possible that if Falco DIs either move correctly in a very specific situation then neither of them "works".

I'd imagine that since Falco needs to DI these moves differently in order to escape them, that's a good reason in and of itself to mix between the two of them.

 

[Silent Wolf]

It is possible that if Falco DIs either move correctly in a very specific situation then neither of them "works".

I'd imagine that since Falco needs to DI these moves differently in order to escape them, that's a good reason in and of itself to mix between the two of them.

1st post

edit: im also not saying dash attack is always the best in the situation you linked to. its good as a mix up with other moves like shine/usmash/whatever depending on %

but nah, i guess usmash is just better in every way so **** it.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Found a good example for you, maybe you would have won this game if you did a usmash instead. It definitely punishes the away DI much harder than dash attack.

pretty bad example considering sw coulda combo'd shine from the dash attack. if anything the miscalculation was trying to use dsmash where it wouldn't reach, not using dash attack instead of usmash.

edit: nvm unknown is on dat

edit edit: sveet, you SOUND like a midwest smasher. just sayin

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

usmash stops comboing around 66 unless they DI in, then it takes a bit more for it not to combo. if they dont DI at 66, you might be able to barely get a fair in or something.

spacies never seem to DI in in that situation for me anyways. usually its no DI or something close to it, so dash attack works well at first. then i mix it up (or should lol)

In the case that the opponent DIs away both of these, which do you think is better? (this is not a loaded question, just wanting your opinion) (please correct me if my assessment of game physics seems inaccurate)


I. Fox does usmash on falco at 70% in center stage. Falco is technically not being comboed but has limited options revolving around falling with an attack or jumping.

II. Fox does dash attack on falco at 70% in center stage. Falco moves away from fox far enough that fox cannot jab reset from where he stands. Fox thus cannot cover every tech option on reaction, but is in an advantageous position.

I think that the forced tech chase by the dash attack can be quite useful near the edge where rolling away isn't a valuable option but otherwise revolves much less on reaction and more on prediction. This means that the damage is not guaranteed, which is what I believe we should be striving for.

On the other hand, the pressure situation in example I seems more consistently advantageous to me. Like a tiger stalking its prey, the fox player can convert into another combo with advantageous trades and option coverage.


I just think if you were to make a chart of every DI angle and punishments that can come from them, dash attack would clearly be visible as a sub par combo move.

There is one place I believe dash attack to be the best choice: After tech chasing to the top platform (happens sometimes after uthrow uair tech chases at low/mid percents) you can land a nair and then immediately dash attack to the edge of the top platform then dash shffl a nair landing on the middle platform and then following up.

 

[Bones0]

Sup guys,

I've played Melee since it came out, but didn't really pay attention to competitive Melee until about a year ago. By that point, I didn't own a Gamecube, so I ended up using an emulator and an Xbox 360 Controller (relevant detail).

So on a local scale, I developed a pretty good Falco. I could SHFFL, wavedash into attacks, combo, and had at least a basic short hop laser game. I did this all on an Xbox 360 Controller, which transferred *mostly* to the Gamecube controller when I had the rare occasion to play. I still consider myself a noob though.

Anyways, I bought a Wii recently (try a week ago) pretty much as a Melee machine and was just screwing around. I actually felt like Fox was a better fit now that I had a Gamecube controller in my hands. I looked up some guides and decided to give Fox a spin. This led me to a few questions.

1. I use the right trigger to wavedash and the left one to shield. Is that a bad habit?

2. On an Xbox 360 Controller, the trigger gives less resistance than the Gamecube controller. I still wavedash pretty well, but I have a higher frequency of unintentional waveshields because I'm pressing down harder on the trigger. This presents a problem when learning to waveshine, as it slows down your ability to shine. I've reduced the frequency of waveshields through practice, but does anyone have any particular tips to get my finger off the trigger faster?

3. Since I already had a lot of the basics like SHFFL down, I only had to adapt them to Fox, which is taking less time than learning it outright. As such, I decided to move on to Fox's bread and butter: the waveshine. I've been practicing against level 1 computers on Final Destination. Here's the question: Particularly against Marth and Luigi, I'm finding I have to wavedash twice to catch up with their knockback. If ">" represents a wavedash, it looks like Shine>>Shine>>Shine>>Usmash. Against someone like Peach, it's Shine>Shine>Shine>Usmash or similar. I know the difference in distance is due to traction, but am I cheating myself by wavedashing twice? Should I be able to do it in one wavedash? Perhaps I should Shine>Dash>Shine>Dash>Usmash? Also, is the setup I'm using (level 1 computers on FD) the best waveshine practice outside of a human?

4. This isn't really Fox specific, but I've gotten into a habit of using A for most of my aerials (nairs are my best friend). I do use the C-stick for retreating aerials or for forward-flying bairs. Should I ween myself off using A except for nairs?

These are definitely nooby questions, but thanks for answering them.

1. Nope, that's not a bad habit. If anything, it'll make WDing OoS easier/more natural.

2. It's really just practice. What you COULD do is take the spring out of your R trigger and push it down before putting the controller back together. Instead of sticking out really far, it will rest right on top of the button that clicks when you airdodge or tech. When you plug your controller in the cube won't read any light shield inputs from your controller, which means as long as you unclick the button you won't shield at all. I actually just recently did this for my controller (I did it to make powershielding easier because you can't powershield with light shield), and I am really happy with it.

3. Characters like Marth and Luigi slide so far that you will just want to grab or attack them after shine. I am pretty sure you can't WD twice and still combo a second shine (you can test in training mode), but if you really want to shine them again for some reason, you can dash cancel. The trick to following them up fast after Shine is to WD, Dash, then whatever you want to do (JC grab, JC usmash, drill, dash attack, etc.). I highly recommend watching videos of top level Foxes to see how they follow up shines on each character and then practice those followups on your own. The stage, your opponent's character, your opponent's %, your positioning on the stage, and previous conditioning are all relevant factors in determining which followup is the best in a given situation. There is often two options where neither is clearly superior, so just make sure you can do all of the followups so you are able to adapt when you play a human.

4. I would recommend using the C-stick whenever it is comfortable because it is much more fool-proof than the control stick+A. Personally, I am very weird about A vs. C-stick because I have a lot of specific situations where I prefer one over the other. Generally speaking, A is good when you want to input the aerial as early as possible while the C-stick is good for when you want to drift left or right, fast fall, or avoid DJing.

 

[omgwtfToph]

dam sveet you really like usmash huh

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No, I really like optimizing combos. Actually, I find dtilt to be a more interesting combo move, though I'm not entirely sure on how effective it is yet. Also, dash attack is really cool off of the top platform because it legit combos into an aerial that you can directly follow up

 

[unknown522]

*bangs head on desk*

ok

 

[knightpraetor]

i disagree about upsmash..i'm a fox who doesn't use dash attack in his combos, so I see lots of places where dash attack does better than upsmash...it has a better trajectory on DI away, keeps them lower at higher percents (making it easier to edgeguard them), sets up for shine finishers instead of bairs (shine is too good at setting up good edgeguarding)

those are just a start...combos into uptilt in places where upsmash would not have (unless you plan to running pivot uptilt on them instead)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dash attack on platforms is one of the worst places to use it AFAIK.

 

[unknown522]

indeed

/10char