Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[leffen]

if the marth tries to punish after the shine, what aerial you used before the shine is irrelevant. even if you meant after the b-air/n-air (before the shine), marth never has enough time to wd oos grab.

also, it only has one extra frame of hitlag. i wouldn't say that makes it "much" easier to miss the l-cancel

uh, how are you thinking exactly.

shine->missed bair->shine has 25 frames of space [assuming the bair doesn't hit]. WD oos takes 15 frames, grab takes 7 (22). Since nair has 3 frames less lag, it has 23 frames of window. Add in the final bit (the fact that marth has to either turnaround, or dash+jc grab) there you have it.

TL;DR: You're wrong

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually between shine bair shine is 3 + 2 + 15 + 10 equals 30. I think its reasonable for a marth player to do some action in that window

 

[leffen]

What is "3 + 2"? I'm talking about the first shine hitting, btw

 

[unknown522]

Wow. After reading some posts, I see that I play the Luigi matchup way different

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What is "3 + 2"? I'm talking about the first shine hitting, btw

Oh that was shine pre-jump and jumpsquat. I obviously wasn't caught up on the posts, ignore me

 

[Kyu Puff]

uh, how are you thinking exactly.

i didn't finish reading the post you quoted so i thought he was talking about b-air -> shine -> early fadeaway b-air (instead of late b-air).

TL;DR: You're wrong

thanks for summarizing that wall of text for me. i don't know if i would have been able to comprehend it had it not been for this douchey quip.

 

[Silent Wolf]

am i the only one who loves leffens posts?

 

[Bones0]

I love them. I've never seen someone try so hard to be a villain. lmao

 

[Wenbobular]

Wow. After reading some posts, I see that I play the Luigi matchup way different

Care to elaborate?

 

[Warhawk]

am i the only one who loves leffens posts?

The more of his posts I read the more I enjoy them lol.

 

[Silent Wolf]

spread tha love.

all i ever hear is ppl dissing leffen, and yea i guess he kinda deserves it. but leffen is tha **** lol

 

[EWC]

Leffen's a **** but he has the **** to back his talk up. I love his attitude.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I've always thought leffen's posts were good, but i cant admit that because that seems to be the popular thing to do right now so ill just say **** you leffen.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, only about 10 posts on smashboards have been of significant help to me in the last 6 months...4 of which were pp's (2 of which were theoretical basics as opposed to matchup specific) and all of the rest of them were leffen's posts...

however, i don't remember any in which leffen wasn't a **** about it

on a side note: reverse bair seems to look even better than reverse nair at piercing low...reverse nair is probably better for high...still have to say i think a normal bair is better (since it sends me offstage) once the shield is truly down a lot, but any decent marth will angle his shield as it goes down so one repetition of pressure probably won't work...

foxes need to work on piercing low....if only you could do a dtilt instantly while facing backwards

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

leffen just spits truth and doesn't censor. If you don't want to risk being called an idiot, try thinking about what you write a little before you post it, or write it in a way that makes it clear that you don't have all the facts.


to avoid double post, ill write here

Dear fox boards,
Please stop using dash attacks in your combos. There is almost always a better option.
Sincerely, Sveet


edit- i changed my mind, its good against floaties. Sometimes i forget that people play characters other than fox/falco

 

[Bones0]

Every time I dash attack, I wish I could go back in time and just usmash.

 

[voorhese]

Even when u use it at the ledge?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dash attack has a lot of good combo uses, even on FFers.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Nah KK ur wrong. It has some uses, but due to the angle, knockback and duration it is almost always more effective to substitute usmash, dtilt or grab. In this example Jman does a dash attack instead of any of these 3 moves. In this case it works out for him since leffen missed his tech and thus had an easy utilt->bair followup, but had leffen teched towards the middle of the stage the worst he could have received would have been either a grab or usmash, either of which would have killed and no longer would the combo lead off-stage.

Example 2 Leffen reverses an edgeguard but hits jman onto the stage. Jman misses his tech and leffen reacts to the missed tech with a dash attack, only giving him another tech chase opportunity. Had he reacted with an usmash instead he would have had a guaranteed juggle

Basically, this is just my way of saying to fox players that while we have some of the best stage control and punish initiation of any character, we really need to work on maximizing our combos and making stuff more efficient.

 

[Silent Wolf]

dash attack will always ****

 

[unknown522]

Care to elaborate?

I use platforms a lot

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash attack will always ****

Fox's dash attack is like a 700 dmg 1h weap. **** in the early days but crap if you can afford to do better

 

[leffen]

lol.

In the past 3 months or so I've actually had more "lol am I the only one who enjoys leffen's posts" than actual haters LMAO

i didn't finish reading the post you quoted so i thought he was talking about b-air -> shine -> early fadeaway b-air (instead of late b-air).

thanks for summarizing that wall of text for me. i don't know if i would have been able to comprehend it had it not been for this douchey quip.

Look at the first part, and then at the last.
You deserve **** if you don't fully read the posts, and then act like you know ****. With how you somehow failed to understand what I even talked about in the last post, you needing a short summary is not out of the question.
You don't fail a first graders spelling test and then hate on people who assume that you don't know how to spell

 

[PK Webb]

lol.

In the past 3 months or so I've actually had more "lol am I the only one who enjoys leffen's posts" than actual haters LMAO



Look at the first part, and then at the last.
You deserve **** if you don't fully read the posts, and then act like you know ****. With how you somehow failed to understand what I even talked about in the last post, you needing a short summary is not out of the question.
You don't fail a first graders spelling test and then hate on people who assume that you don't know how to spell

y do u feel the need to be little people?

 

[Kyu Puff]

because he's a bratty little kid

leffen: okay sweetie

 

[ShroudedOne]

When did we suddenly switch from, "LOL it's the internet no one takes anything seriously if you do you're dumb," to everyone getting super butthurt over an abrasive posting style?

Just read his posts for the information they give you, and if it's offensive, and you can't, block him. I don't see what the issue is.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nah KK ur wrong. It has some uses, but due to the angle, knockback and duration it is almost always more effective to substitute usmash, dtilt or grab.

Some vague, yet solid reasons to use dash attack in combos:

1) low KB prevents people from landing on platforms when stronger launchers would
2) the predictable, low-variance trajectory prevents combo break opportunities where stronger launchers (like the three you suggested) would
3) comes out super fast and effectively has the most range out of dash - sometimes it will be your only 'legit' follow
4) put damage on the opponent while keeping them in 'being comboed' state - so you can eventually up smash them for the kill, rather than up smashing and ending the combo (which is what would happen in a bunch of the examples you linked below)

In this example Jman does a dash attack instead of any of these 3 moves. In this case it works out for him since leffen missed his tech and thus had an easy utilt->bair followup, but had leffen teched towards the middle of the stage the worst he could have received would have been either a grab or usmash, either of which would have killed and no longer would the combo lead off-stage.

I'm not going to argue that regrab wouldn't have been very good there but the follows off down tilt and up smash in those situations would be pretty meh. You basically get an aerial (if that) on an opponent that's super duper high in the air. I think Jman made a perfectly fine call with dash attack. Tech stand, roll away, & non-tech punishable with d-smash, f-smash, grab, or up tilt is ****. And the roll inwards gives Fox a grab... on himself... on FD. He's still in the range for up throw > up tilt > ??? autocombos on no DI and DI away is punishable by regrab anyway (more damage, closer to up smash KO percent, closer to edge, no real drawback, he basically has to non-DI it). The sheer volume of things that works in Fox vs Fox at that percent on a non-DIed or slight DIed up throw is enough to make this very viable. Certainly as viable as up smash > nothing / maybe bair or d-tilt > aerial.

Example 2 Leffen reverses an edgeguard but hits jman onto the stage. Jman misses his tech and leffen reacts to the missed tech with a dash attack, only giving him another tech chase opportunity. Had he reacted with an usmash instead he would have had a guaranteed juggle

You're wrong because person's damage was too high to combo directly off up smash. I don't really want to go much further into detail on this one because this one seems kind of no brainer to me.

Basically, this is just my way of saying to fox players that while we have some of the best stage control and punish initiation of any character, we really need to work on maximizing our combos and making stuff more efficient.

Yes. I agree. But the secret is not more up smash at every opportunity ever. This is a concept you seem to be struggling with.

 

[leffen]

Is it wrong that I call out on peoples bull**** when they act fraudulent?
I don't hate on players who say "I don't think you could punish it". I "hate" on people who cannot even understand the post and then act like they know everything. Maybe then the person, and everyone seeing the ****falls that rain on him, learn to actually read the post before posting

Oh, and I don't feel the "need". I just enjoy doing it, and I think it works better. And even if I am a bratty little kid, that doesn't really explain why I'm correcting you, and you not me. The reason for that is that you're vastly inferior in read and understand a simple post.
But feel free to john away your failure with personal insults instead of actually learning something. Scrub.


@Sveet. Dash attack is great in a number of situation. It's just so fast. The reward isn't incredible, but its speed and reach makes up for it

 

[unknown522]

david, americans like to prematurely end combos with u-smash. It's been discussed.

edit: except chillin. He knows what's up

 

[leffen]

Usmash gives so low reward if they just DI away >_>. If you're gonna combo, use utilt or grab

 

[unknown522]

alright, leffen knows what's up too

 

[KirbyKaze]

The secret to Fox combos that go longer is to use more moves that don't end in "B" or "smash".

The exception is "down+B" but nobody calls it that anyway.

 

[unknown522]

*****es don't know about my up-b combos.

jk

 

[Kyu Puff]

The reason for that is that you're vastly inferior in read and understand a simple post.

Your post wasn't entirely clear because you went off on five tangents before returning to the b-air shieldpoke thing. Nothing I said was wrong, it just wasn't relevant because I misinterpreted what you meant.

The scenario you came up with was pretty unrealistic. Even if you n-air, he could just wavedash outside of shine range and grab you. B-air is also more likely to catch someone trying to escape behind you (we don't live in a frame perfect world, so depending on when Marth starts his wd and you start your b-air, you could easily hit him out of it).

Anyways, in that situation wouldn't you either go further into his shield and shine grab, or do an early/mid aerial in case he rolls? What's the point of doing a late n-air in place on the back of his shield?

 

[leffen]

Your post wasn't entirely clear because you went off on five tangents before returning to the b-air shieldpoke thing. Nothing I said was wrong, it just wasn't relevant because I misinterpreted what you meant.

The scenario you came up with was pretty unrealistic. Even if you n-air, he could just wavedash outside of shine range and grab you. B-air is also more likely to catch someone trying to escape behind you (we don't live in a frame perfect world, so depending on when Marth starts his wd and you start your b-air, you could easily hit him out of it).

Anyways, in that situation wouldn't you either go further into his shield and shine grab, or do an early/mid aerial in case he rolls? What's the point of doing a late n-air in place on the back of his shield?

I NEVER mentioned early bair lol

The scenario isn't unrealistic either. Shine is invincible at the frame it hits, so it being out of range or not doesn't matter (since he reaches out his hand). You could also spotdodge.

And you don't seem to understand how this works. Early bair (that would possible catch marths wd) will get shield grabbed by marth. Late bair, is vulnerable to wd oos after shine. If you do the bair early enough so that it catches him, then he could have stayed in shield and grabbed you. Its a mixup, and your reward for hitting one bair is nothing compared to his touch of death grab.

Bair would be more likely to catch someone wding away, but wd away is fast enough and travels far enough that its not even close to mattering. Nair reaches where it matters, WD oos past you.

What I would do depends on what I think he will. If I think he wants to wd oos past me, I'll mixup between dash away, raw grab, doubleshine, shine grab and waveshine on his shield. Early aerials aren't good against marth, since you can just jump over his grab anyway. Late nair gives you a chance to punish grab (after shine), any jump oos, most WD oos', spotdodge, reduces their shield and it puts you at FRAME ADVANTAGE if done late.

And I already stated, you shouldn't be shield pressuring him with aerials. Nair is just by far the better option if you want to.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Some vague, yet solid reasons to use dash attack in combos:

1) low KB prevents people from landing on platforms when stronger launchers would
2) the predictable, low-variance trajectory prevents combo break opportunities where stronger launchers (like the three you suggested) would
3) comes out super fast and effectively has the most range out of dash - sometimes it will be your only 'legit' follow
4) put damage on the opponent while keeping them in 'being comboed' state - so you can eventually up smash them for the kill, rather than up smashing and ending the combo (which is what would happen in a bunch of the examples you linked below)

1) please give an example. Also, why is this good? Tech chasing on a platform is almost always better than tech chasing on the ground.
2) while i agree with the idea, i don't agree that dash attack effectively solves this problem
3) agreed and is the majority of cases where it should be used. This is not quite as often as people believe, however. Dash canceled dtilt and JC usmash have nearly identical effective range.
4) since we are only talking about comboing spacies, i can effectively say this is untrue. If you are able to dash attack and they are unable to hit the ground before usmashing, they would have died had usmash been used to begin with.

As for your rebuttals to the examples, I will postulate these ideas which lead to the conclusions I had.

I. On fast fallers, leading off stage with a combo is consistently better than tech chasing.
II. On fast fallers, leading to aerial combos is consistently better than tech chasing.

Tech chasing, while quite good, is actually the least rewarding and most escapable of combos.

 

[unknown522]

what? tech chasing is so gay

 

[Shai Hulud]

@shai: Previously I've linked to your post (the first one, by the second I had already perfected shield dropping/discovered the techniques you wrote) but after EVERY time I did it, they asked for a more personal/better explanation, I didn't this time. Perhaps "spill" was a bad word choice, but I was more thinking of the techniques that I didn't reveal than the particular one I did (shield drop).

Secret techniques, eh? You should share the knowledge

The reason I said that I was ashamed was you could easily find out how to shield drop, yet I get several PMs/questions about it.Also, I didn't see any mention of you ever mentioning the tilt version (the by far best one since there is no setup) and the "shield stun" part was incredibly small and in another post than the first one, hence why NO ONE thought about using it defensively when they saw your post(s)

The buffer/shield stun stuff may not have been in the OP (don't remember) when first posted but as of the last update (Dec 08) it was, and I had mentioned it briefly in a post a few down from the first. But you're right it was very brief. At the time I had just come up with some of this stuff so I wasn't really aware of which techniques would be more important, or the applications. And I didn't mention tilting specifically in the first thread (though I did in the second, although I'm sure you were doing it before then) but it is implied by this: "You can drop through your shield by tilting 45 degrees below horizontal in any situation where pressing left/right will not cause you to roll." I went on to list some examples of ways to do this but it wasn't supposed to be exhaustive. And it's such a minute variation (tilting vs. other things I mentioned) that it's not exactly a new method. I guess I expected people to figure out the little details themselves rather than being spoonfed everything.

You never explained why you should use a certain kind of buffer/method/shield drop or its flaws (or at least now well) which is why I focused on that instead of frame data, which you already had posted.

I agree, and I appreciate you elaborating on it, I only objected because the post gave the impression you believed you came up with this kind of shield dropping.

anyway, idgaf. just don't be so anal about the fact that you think everything shield drop related is yours.

I'm anal, can't help it =/

And I don't think the original shield drop method is mine, just the techniques for rapidly dropping from a dash/run and from "buffering" the left/right input. Also I think calling all these "shield dropping" is incredibly vague and confusing. The original method should be called "shield drop" and dash / buffered methods something else. "Shai drop" is in common use but descriptive names like "dash platform drop" are also fine, I have been referring to it as "Shai drop" because it's common, brief, and distinguishes the technique from the original "shield drop."

Feel free not to respond to all this, I can go back and forth ad infinitum.

 

[Winston]

Is it wrong that I call out on peoples bull**** when they act fraudulent?
I don't hate on players who say "I don't think you could punish it". I "hate" on people who cannot even understand the post and then act like they know everything.

I went back and read my post, and I used the phrase "I think" twice in a < 1 paragraph post to suggest that these were my views and that I might not be correct. I'll try harder next time I guess.

1) please give an example. Also, why is this good? Tech chasing on a platform is almost always better than tech chasing on the ground.

At low-mid percents, if they DI away on the usmash, they will land on the platform while you are still in usmash lag, and you don't have enough time to techchase them. In some spots its also easy to edge cancel off the platform (since DI away on the usmash sends them fairly horizontally).

3) agreed and is the majority of cases where it should be used. This is not quite as often as people believe, however. Dash canceled dtilt and JC usmash have nearly identical effective range.

Its really really common for dash attack to be your only follow after a nair at low-mid percent. This alone is a good reason for dash attack to be commonly used. In that situation you can't DC dtilt since you're still in your initial dash. It's possible that some of the time in this situation you could JC usmash if you assume they'll go at a certain trajectory, but I don't think you have time to visually confirm and react, which dash attack lets you do since it hits so low + in front and comes out so fast.

4) since we are only talking about comboing spacies, i can effectively say this is untrue. If you are able to dash attack and they are unable to hit the ground before usmashing, they would have died had usmash been used to begin with.

What? Obviously if you can land and usmash and it'll kill them, you should. But there are plenty of times when you can land either and usmash wouldn't kill them, such as in the Jman/Leffen example you linked.

 

[PK Webb]

Is it wrong that I call out on peoples bull**** when they act fraudulent?
I don't hate on players who say "I don't think you could punish it". I "hate" on people who cannot even understand the post and then act like they know everything. Maybe then the person, and everyone seeing the ****falls that rain on him, learn to actually read the post before posting

Oh, and I don't feel the "need". I just enjoy doing it, and I think it works better. And even if I am a bratty little kid, that doesn't really explain why I'm correcting you, and you not me. The reason for that is that you're vastly inferior in read and understand a simple post.
But feel free to john away your failure with personal insults instead of actually learning something. Scrub.


@Sveet. Dash attack is great in a number of situation. It's just so fast. The reward isn't incredible, but its speed and reach makes up for it

all i get from this post is that u hold urself alot higher then u should