Lovage
Smash Hero
french candians = way funnier to bring up than WC lol
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Big_R
Smash Champion
hes lonely man he wants u to tell him h2play
ERayz
Smash Journeyman
Of course. I should wait until this thread is dead, before asking for any advice withotu disturbing any discussion?
I've asked for advice a few times in the past (in this thread or on Fox boards), and my posts were almost always ignored. Maybe is it a badluck streak (people not feeling like giving advice, which is understandable), but it'd be nice to at least know when they don't have intention of giving feedback. :/
It really felt like everybody just agreed to not help newcomers or something.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Cmon dude, you know im spelling it sike on purpose lol
Anyway I just moved to norcal and will be here for 3 months. Look out WC!! or something lol
Edit: Btw I couldn't care less about what they were talking about or whatever but EC Canada + Leffen are my *****s foreal
shadrach kabango
Banned via Warnings
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOL. And k let's team sometime. And I'm here for an internship. Staying in San Jose.
DerfMidWest
Fresh ******
I think it might just be you...
I mean, I post matches every once in awhile asking for tips/advice, and I usually get quite a few things that help me a lot.
I mean sure, sometimes I'd like somebody to break a set down in a little more detail for me, but if not, then it's whatever. Nobody is required to help me, so I'll take whatever advice I can get.
It's not the boards fault that you aren't as good as you want to be, so stop being mad at them. If you don't like the fox boards, get advice from somewhere else.
Anyway, I came here to ask if anybody could link me to some fox/peach games that would help me understand how to movement camp a little better. That would be much appreciated ^^
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Just learn how to approach, you scrub. 
(Just kidding.)
(Just kidding.)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
We have poutine, what do you have?
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I mean he could have asked way more nicely considering no one has to do it for him and it can be time consuming. Also if I remember correctly he didn't even wait a day to see if anyone would do it. That's hardly even giving people enought time to be able to look at it and set aside time later to critique him (at least properly).
unknown522
Some guy
yo, the way that french canadians say 'poutine' is so intense. It's like 'poutain' or something....
anyways, fox discussion
anyways, fox discussion
Sinji
Smash Master
JPOBS
Smash Hero
You're right, multiple top level players from numerous regions spanning multiple time zones and backgrounds converged and decided to ignore new comers. yup, thats what happened.
unknown522
Some guy
it's a secret conglomerate. People aren't supposed to know tristan
Sinji
Smash Master
If your behind them both. If in front, nair shine.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
b-air has one more frame of shield stun, but 3 more frames of landing lag, so n-air is better
unknown522
Some guy
indeed
Sinji
Smash Master
Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7
Total: 39
Hit: 4-19
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 24>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10
Winston
Smash Master
-nair shine is "safer", as in it has smaller gaps, since nair has less lag
-bair shine does more shield damage, so it can be better for pressuring people into rolling
generally I think you should only use bair shine when they are cornered, but in that situation mixing up both is good to make it less predictable. It's also good to use late bair to end your shield pressure, or possibly early bair -> fadeaway; both let you get some free extra shield damage.
finally I think bair shine is at its best vs. characters like Falcon and Ganon whose only OOS option in front of them is shieldgrab (which you can space around while doing delayed aerials), and vs. Marth since the extra shield damage is particularly valuable because of how bad his shield is.
-bair shine does more shield damage, so it can be better for pressuring people into rolling
generally I think you should only use bair shine when they are cornered, but in that situation mixing up both is good to make it less predictable. It's also good to use late bair to end your shield pressure, or possibly early bair -> fadeaway; both let you get some free extra shield damage.
finally I think bair shine is at its best vs. characters like Falcon and Ganon whose only OOS option in front of them is shieldgrab (which you can space around while doing delayed aerials), and vs. Marth since the extra shield damage is particularly valuable because of how bad his shield is.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
dair shine is saferst because there is even less gaps
Lovage
Smash Hero
damn nair owns
Shai Hulud
Smash Lord
As far as I know I did "invent" (discover is more accurate) Shai dropping, which at the time I called dash platform dropping. The first time I mentioned how to do it on Smashboards was in 2007, though I made the thread some months later. And AFAIK there was no mention of how to do this technique on Smashboards at that time. I didn't discover the basic technique of pressing down with the right amount of pressure to drop through the shield, which is what people used to mean by "shield dropping," and have never claimed I did, only the techniques for dropping through while dashing and doing it OOS by rotating the stick to SE or SW. So I don't really understand your post. It sounds like you think I didn't discover this (from the scare quotes), and that I'm just seeking attention making false claims. This is not the case, but I do object to other people acting like they figured it out.
I have been advocating this technique for years, because I am a fan of competitive Melee, and believe its mastery can advance the metagame. But would it be so wrong if I also wanted a little credit?
In any case, I hardly see why my motivations matter here.
1) pick small stages
2) Shine him off stage
3) edgeguard him with bair then during his horrible recovery shinespike him
4) dont try and "combo him"
5) if u up throw him wait for his reaction since he can normally nair out
Those are some starter tips
2) Shine him off stage
3) edgeguard him with bair then during his horrible recovery shinespike him
4) dont try and "combo him"
5) if u up throw him wait for his reaction since he can normally nair out
Those are some starter tips
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Luigi is so easy to Nair combo when you pop him in the air <_< ... you just have to be fast and know when you're too slow so you don't get hit by Nair
Big stages are fine if you know how to edgeguard him because it gives you hella room to work with
Shinespike is way better than Bair if you can hit it, Luigi is mad floaty and gains height with good DI
When you're unsure of what to do in neutral running away is usually the worst option ... you want to stay in his wavedash "deadzone" - between where he can hit you with an aerial and when he can hit you with wavedash attacks <-- super important for not getting bit by random wavedash dsmashes and stuff
When Luigi is grounded the optimal DI is usually toward his back, but when he's in the air you want to DI away from the combos (just don't get Faired and die at 80)
Big stages are fine if you know how to edgeguard him because it gives you hella room to work with
Shinespike is way better than Bair if you can hit it, Luigi is mad floaty and gains height with good DI
When you're unsure of what to do in neutral running away is usually the worst option ... you want to stay in his wavedash "deadzone" - between where he can hit you with an aerial and when he can hit you with wavedash attacks <-- super important for not getting bit by random wavedash dsmashes and stuff
When Luigi is grounded the optimal DI is usually toward his back, but when he's in the air you want to DI away from the combos (just don't get Faired and die at 80)
leffen
Smash Champion
@shai: Previously I've linked to your post (the first one, by the second I had already perfected shield dropping/discovered the techniques you wrote) but after EVERY time I did it, they asked for a more personal/better explanation, I didn't this time. Perhaps "spill" was a bad word choice, but I was more thinking of the techniques that I didn't reveal than the particular one I did (shield drop).
The reason I said that I was ashamed was you could easily find out how to shield drop, yet I get several PMs/questions about it.Also, I didn't see any mention of you ever mentioning the tilt version (the by far best one since there is no setup) and the "shield stun" part was incredibly small and in another post than the first one, hence why NO ONE thought about using it defensively when they saw your post(s)
You never explained why you should use a certain kind of buffer/method/shield drop or its flaws (or at least now well) which is why I focused on that instead of frame data, which you already had posted.
anyway, idgaf. just don't be so anal about the fact that you think everything shield drop related is yours.
The reason I said that I was ashamed was you could easily find out how to shield drop, yet I get several PMs/questions about it.Also, I didn't see any mention of you ever mentioning the tilt version (the by far best one since there is no setup) and the "shield stun" part was incredibly small and in another post than the first one, hence why NO ONE thought about using it defensively when they saw your post(s)
You never explained why you should use a certain kind of buffer/method/shield drop or its flaws (or at least now well) which is why I focused on that instead of frame data, which you already had posted.
anyway, idgaf. just don't be so anal about the fact that you think everything shield drop related is yours.
Sinji
Smash Master
If I may add to Luigi, use dtilts into bairs at mid percents. chain uptilts into uairs.
leffen
Smash Champion
I hate these kinds of posts
you should not be focusing on how safe a move is really, you should be concerned about the REWARD.
Fox should always aim to grab shields as a priority. Shield pressuring with shines/aerials is more often than not a failed approach that turns into a way to make you safe than what you should be looking for.
Also, Bair vs marth is bad. Marths best option is to WD oos, and bair both has landing lag. Grab should be a priority though, since shine doesn't give much and marths spotdodge is awful
Winston
Smash Master
He asked specifically about nair shine vs. bair shine, so I compared the two... what do you want me to do?
about the bair vs. Marth bit, I meant when he is cornered. Sure, he can WD oos onto the edge I guess, but that's fine.
about the bair vs. Marth bit, I meant when he is cornered. Sure, he can WD oos onto the edge I guess, but that's fine.
leffen
Smash Champion
I didn't mean to hate on your post alone, it was aimed at the never ending feed of noobs asking BAIR OR NAIR OR DAIR!11! and the inability of all players who know better (the few) to say "grab dat hoe"
also, bair still has more landing lag, which is the best place for marth to grab. Bair is used when they're corned to HIT WITH, if you hit a shield you've "failed" in a way. To keep bairing a shield against a marth is almost never worth it, especially when they're on the ledge... Shine lets them grab the ledge for free, grab takes your stock at any percent.
Also, if you're turned around you should do mango pressure aka jump back nair if you're dead set on mindless sh aerials
also, bair still has more landing lag, which is the best place for marth to grab. Bair is used when they're corned to HIT WITH, if you hit a shield you've "failed" in a way. To keep bairing a shield against a marth is almost never worth it, especially when they're on the ledge... Shine lets them grab the ledge for free, grab takes your stock at any percent.
Also, if you're turned around you should do mango pressure aka jump back nair if you're dead set on mindless sh aerials
Bones0
Smash Legend
lol wut
If you have Marth cornered in his shield, you can almost always shield poke with a single bair-shine-bair iteration. I think the general thing to keep in mind is if you're going to late aerial, it might as well be a bair because you shouldn't be getting grabbed either way, and bair does more shield damage. Late nair is only ever better than late bair because of spacing, not due to frame advantage. So if you insist on shield pressuring (I def agree just grabbing is usually a better option), whether you use nair or bair should simply be determined by your spacing, timing, and type of reward (combo or KO %).
Wake
Smash Master
Yes. Thank you Leffen. Foxes, just grab Peach when she is sitting in her shield.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Everyone should grab everyone. Hold them tightly, and don't let go. Spread the love.
leffen
Smash Champion
shut up
any decent marth would just hold shield up if you're trying to poke his shield with bair, and besides, nair shield pokes better reversed than a bair because of how its hitbox is formed (it almost doesn't touch em, and angling barely helps because of how the allows you to poke their feet if they angle up, unlike bair).
Ugh, I hate people who think big hitboxes are better at shield poking. Learn the ****ing game.
Also, bair makes it very easy for the next shine to miss, esp if they shield DI
And the fact that bair is -1 vs +1 nair DOES MATTER(bair also does more damage, which makes it scale worse, and you generally hit more bairs than nair against marth)
It allows you to grab him before he can. It also allows you to nair earlier, often catching most WDs oos, while bair needs to be done later and is easier to escape from since it has a more concentrated hitbox (wd oos past you is very good/common here)
It being + also means that you can often nair->run behind him->grab (beats wd oos, their grab, any jumps, spotdodge, etc) but with bair he can barely grab you before it if you're one frame off (or hit a single bair that stock ~_~)
Also, bair has more LANDING LAG. This matters because it means marth can actually true punish with WD oos->grab (after the shine) while with nair fox has time to shine/spotdodge especially if you consider the fact that bairs extra hitlag makes it much easier to miss the lcancel if they just avoid the bair. It also means that its much worse for punishing rolls.
mers
Smash Ace
leffen you definitely have a lot of valid points, but god damn you can be rude about them.
separate thought:
what do you guys think about the viability of shine-usmash (during pressure obvs) on shield to break it? obviously it requires someone to have a small shield, but it seems like it would do enough damage to break shields before most people expect it to.
super situational but i think could be nifty.
separate thought:
what do you guys think about the viability of shine-usmash (during pressure obvs) on shield to break it? obviously it requires someone to have a small shield, but it seems like it would do enough damage to break shields before most people expect it to.
super situational but i think could be nifty.
Doser
Smash Ace
To the idiots who misuse the word "entitled" you are essentially saying that they ARE DESERVING of what they are demanding. You guys should say "self-entitled" so you don't look ********.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
if the marth tries to punish after the shine, what aerial you used before the shine is irrelevant. even if you meant after the b-air/n-air (before the shine), marth never has enough time to wd oos grab.
also, it only has one extra frame of hitlag. i wouldn't say that makes it "much" easier to miss the l-cancel
leffen
Smash Champion
If you wanna shield break someone you should always do doubleshine ->usmash. The doubleshine has no holes, so it always eats up any "escape" inputs that they usually input after the shine.
mers
Smash Ace
ooh. smart. also harder but no johns i guess.