Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[WestBallz]

lol ur not exposing anything. and spotdodging is the worst thing u could do against this technique trust me. every shield pressure has flaws but to me this one has the least amount of them and its very hard to punish. Even if people start punishing it i still got a million other shield pressures.

 

[Lovage]

ya def disagree with these spectators it's better than it looks on youtube. the shield stun lasts so long...

 

[leffen]

How is spotdodging bad at all versus the technique? Just do the math, sheesh

and the shieldstun may be high but its no different from normal doubleshines...and it has ten times more lag so BROKEN!!!111


lovage just start doing (shine->) wavedash backwards more often since even if you get hit you cannot get combo'd lol
everything that has retreating in it (bair, nair,usmash->hold left) etc beats this out for free and EVEN if you get hit you're still safe
people are so bad at fighting gimmicks lol


edit: really whatever. If you aren't gonna say **** about any of my arguments against it without backing it up (like how spotdodging is bad against this specific technique [yes it obviously bad against normal shine-aeiral pressure]) and you are just gonna say "OMG BROKENNNNNN ITS SO HARD TO PUNISH" then whatever. I gave you a ****ton of answers on how to beat it for FREE (yes you can still mixup, but its still inferior to mixxing up with doubleshine) then whatever, I'm not gonna argue against it

westballz obviously has success with even though he spams it to hell, so why would he stop lol.

 

[Lovage]

not sure how you're comparing using shine wd back shield pressure as a way to "beat" wes's double shine shield pressure. sure if i have the opportunity to land a nair on his shield at point blank i will definitely use wd back sometimes, but how does this help me in fighting his strong shield pressure gimmick?

thats like saying the way to handle peach's fair shield pressure mixup is to properly space bairs. derppp of course that's a good strategy but it doesn't help the fact that every player in the world gets caught in their shield by a falco from time to time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Sgj78QG9Bg#t=2m34s

"i mean, no offense son, but that's some weak *** thinking, you equivocating like a mothafuccka!"

 

[leffen]

sorry, shine wavedash OOS

After the first shine, you'll be able to waveshine oos before his second shine hits you.
What is even better is that if you delay your wavedash out of the shine by a bit, then you are even more safe. If he delays his shine so that your Jc->shine happens during shieldstun you'll still get a wavedash oos since your jump->wavedash inputs will happen after the shieldstun is over

You can also get a spotdodge from trying to waveshine oos since R+down for wavedash gets you a spotdodge if you're still in shieldstun and yeah, since spotdodge ***** this lol.

 

[Lovage]

ok d00d theory crafting 3k miles over da internet is very wholesome and fulfilling, but this time let's just say we'll see what happens at the next national.

to be explicit: i think wes's delayed doubleshine waveshine is a pretty good technique, and when he uses it within a whole other bag of tricks it's pretty damn useful and effective. i'd love to see a fox player beat this by sidestepping or waveshining oos so until then WE'LL SEE.

 

[leffen]

Im not saying this is BAD
Im just saying it is worse in almost every wave to just doubleshining

and you don't have to sidestep it or waveshine it oos. ANY normal punish works EASYILY after the second shine, as well as rolling, lightshielding, etc.


I am so sorry for giving you important advice in a matchup that you recently lost ...

and yeah, he will probably **** a million people with it since noone is used to beating this or standard doubleshines YET. Just like any other gimmick/technology, its really powerful when you know **** they don't

 

[WestBallz]

100% agreed with oscar

@leffen also shine oos doesnt work against this technique.

 

[leffen]

Yes it does


please ffs, state WHY it doesn't work >_>
If anything it works after your wavedash, don't be silly



I should know better. No smasher can ever admit that their **** is flawed. Too much e-peen/pride

 

[Lovage]

leffen honestly you know a lot about melee but you fall for the "mental melee" trap more often than any good player i know. something feels right in your head and you argue to death with it (not to mention going into ultra virgin troll mode when ppl argue w/ you sometimes) but in reality you havn't faced it before so you're KINDA talking out of your aszz

i know that once you get a lot of experience with the game overall you can answer questions like this off the top of your head, but how about for 1 time u show some humility and realize you've never fought wes when he's done this ****, and realize you'd learn a lot when you actually face against a new technique irl.

i appreciate you TRYING to help me (even tho i never asked anyone in this thread once for help, and i pretty much learned that tourny i suck **** at playing stoned) but honestly you defend this **** so venomously i really doubt if that's your goal here.

 

[WestBallz]

LOOOOOOOOOOOL Its a thing called spacing....i can space my shine to where it will hit your shield/you and your shine won't. Its very easy actually.

 

[WestBallz]

oops double post

 

[leffen]

leffen honestly you know a lot about melee but you fall for the "mental melee" trap more often than any good player i know. something feels right in your head and you argue to death with it (not to mention going into ultra virgin troll mode when ppl argue w/ you sometimes) but in reality you havn't faced it before so you're KINDA talking out of your aszz

i know that once you get a lot of experience with the game overall you can answer questions like this off the top of your head, but how about for 1 time u show some humility and realize you've never fought wes when he's done this ****, and realize you'd learn a lot when you actually face against a new technique irl.

i appreciate you TRYING to help me (even tho i never asked anyone in this thread once for help, and i pretty much learned that tourny i suck **** at playing stoned) but honestly you defend this **** so venomously i really doubt if that's your goal here.

Will you get off your ****ing high horse

do you seriously believe that westballz is the only one in the world doing this? LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Please, I have both fought against it and I have used it myself (back in 2010 when I played falco and couldn't multishine properly, you could probably find vids of it)

and you're right, I wasn't trying to help you specifically. My aim was to show the techniques weaknesses, and to help EVERYONE who read it. Even westballz could get some knowledge of that if he didn't take so much pride in HIS technique

Neither of you have made ZERO valid counterarguments to ANY of my original points
"SPOTDODGING SUCKS AGAINST IT"-Wes
"No it doesn't"
"..."

and yes, while it is true that you can indeed space shines outside of theirs sometimes (since your shine pushes them back) BUT since you are doing one more shine you HAVE to be in range of another shine which means that their shine will always hit if you're in the range to do yours.
you can also do that with normal multishining AND they can space their shine outside of yours...not to even mention shield DI >_>


as for the mental melee comment... I have tested this out in dolphin several times already...

IF anything, are you really arguing that you cannot punish the wavedash lag?

 

[Strong Badam]

you can just grab against the waveland................ not on reaction but that's kind of how shield pressure works. needs a read to punish it

 

[leffen]

I know strongbad, I don't know what the hell is up with westballz/lovage atm >_>

 

[Lovage]

kk dude NO PROB fly out to fc or the next large national and i'll just see it for myself

aside from that i think you vs. wes would be a pretty tight money match. i'd put big bets on it.

 

[leffen]

american pride baby!



I still don't get why you are so dead set on protecting this technique AT ALL COST, when its APPARENTLY NOT SAFE


the logic of "WELL IF I HAVENT SEEN YOU PUNISH IT ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!11" is ****ing ********, especially when I present strong counterargument with reasonable evidence and you simply resort to "OMG LETS SEE YOU DO IT!"

 

[Strong Badam]

we need more purple in here

 

[leffen]

I'd be up to MM westballz but I'm not coming back to the US before Apex2013 prob and seems like armada wont either


edit: also you accuse me for having another reason to exposing this technique other than helping ppl... what is your reason for defending it just as much?

 

[Lovage]

cuz i think it's pretty solid, like i said. just standing up for something that was getting a lot of hate after wes came in and commented on a post about it, it's a really nice technique, i want to try exploring similar options with fox.

and that's too bad @ apex 2013 we'll all be old and grey by then, cuz i think as of this moment wes would take a dump on your chest in a bo5 or bo7 and part of it would be his really good shield pressure lol.

 

[Jim Morrison]

-Fox Advice/Questions Topic- AKA The REAL MBR.

 

[leffen]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't explore other options lol

and if you know its solid, then why do you need to defend it, just let people think its bad and then expose them with the so solid technique.

I wasn't trying to hate on westballz, as I said why stop using it if ppl are getting hit by it
and all I've seen is "OMG THAT SHINE PRESSURE OMG OMG" from utube/here lol

where are these hate posts :o


@the MM: I dunno, iirc I won a fair bit more when I played friendlies with wes at apex but thats friendlies and things have changed... I'm pretty confident that I could take him on at FC, i'm practicing mad hard atm ;P

i'll show it to you by beating PP at smashers reunion.

 

[Lovage]

and if you know its solid, then why do you need to defend it, just let people think its bad and then expose them with the so solid technique.

yep dude that's what i tried to say like 3 posts ago lol. except i'm not confident in my ability to use it with fox, i'm confident with wes's or PP's ability to do it with falco.

these chode-stroking theory craft sessions make me want to slit my wrists, i can't think of something less productive than this fking gruel

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco is doing double shine, 1 frame late
Fox is doing shine out of shield, perfect

If Falco were to do anything later than 1 frame (spacing it on the top of the shield or what have you) then fox can shine OoS between falco's shines.



edit- from a strictly math PoV, perfect double shine is better than any non-perfect double shine. Isn't this obvious? I am not so certain about the spacing thing on shield, but if you airdodge down they can simply grab you (its worse than simply wave shining on shield).

IMO the double shine tier list is perfect > imperfect + airdodge down = imperfect plaform waveland > imperfect pure double jump

 

[Lovage]

yep, as wes pointed out, if you are shining that close to their body of course you can get shine oos'd. there really is a lot of stuff in this game that CAN'T be beaten by simple shine oos's due to proper and delicate spacing, lots of hitboxes are way too gay for that. see: armada's spaced fairs, s2j and hax's spaced nairs, pikachu's crossup nairs ETC.

i think this is a pretty important distinction to make because sometimes i feel like newer players imagine shine oos as some miracle get out of jail free card that beats every approach regardless of the situation.

every little weapon in your arsenal has a perfect time and place to be used correctly but there really isn't 1-size fits all answers especially when you start talking about shield pressure one of the most precise and subtle things in the game.

 

[leffen]

what sveet posted + the fact that you are always gonna have hit a shine = stale + the fact that westballz does it higher than 1 frame late (or he'd get normal doubleshines and flub everything with the wavedash inputs all the time) = lawyered


You can NORMALLY space out of shine oos range. You can NOT do it with wes technique since it requires you to be in shine again, and thus you are in the shine range


also, armada doesn't space fairs out of shine oos range, and neither is pikachus nair crossup->uair

and yes, I hate when people think that ANYTHING is a magical thing that fits any situation. Just like you are doing with this wes tech...
If both ppl are equally perfect, shine oos will always win/go equal

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Lovage, I'm with you about obnoxious hitboxes and really delicate spacing, but I am a scientific thinker first and foremost. Everything in the game can be described with facts and proof, even if the perception of it is different when you play the game in real time.

I have a new computer and I have set up dolphin to a usb controller so that I can test and prove things more accurately. That gif took less time to make than it took to download gimp; if you want me to research something for you, let me know.

 

[leffen]

Sveet, could you test spotdodge against the strategy? Specifically after the first shine and with the falco accounting for the second one hitting (so he jumps out of it slower)

 

[Lovage]

and yes, I hate when people think that ANYTHING is a magical thing that fits any situation. Just like you are doing with this wes tech...

come on dude, idk if that's part of your troll attitude or whatever but you couldn't be more wrong. i've been saying since the beginning of this that it's just one of many things that good falco's (wes in this instance) can use to **** you for shielding. **** off lol.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, the Wes shield pressure thing is only a mixup. No one in here is implying that it is good as standard shield pressure, even if West does kind of spam it in that one match (this is directed to Leffen). Mixed in among regular doubleshines, shinegrabs, standard aerial shine pressure, etc....it seems fairly legitimate.

In a situation like this, how good is just rolling away? I think that'd be my first reaction to this, because other than whittling down the opponent's shield and making them "afraid," I guess, it doesn't seem to be achieving anything else (not that this is necessarily bad, it'll let you do other things to them), and doesn't look like it let's you cover roll away.

 

[leffen]

lol I was merely pointing out the fact that you HIGHLY overvalue this tech

both of you were both disregarding the fact that it even had any its weaknesses.
I was writing up tons of arguments to why this is not that good (and how it is just a terrible doubleshine) both of you REFUSED to acknowledge any of its faults. Even if you did acknowledge it, you did not write that you did and instead replied with arguments like "FLY TO FC AND DO IT OTHERWISE IT DOESNT MEAN ANYTHING" and "you'll see when you play wes"


If you really do realize how this is a technique that has MAJOR flaws (and its imo, infinitely inferior to double shining in almost every way) then act like it, and don't fkn flame me when I say that you overrate it.

edit: Shrouded rolling away ***** it as I wrote eariler (while doubleshining normally ***** rolling). and "No one in here is implying that it is good as standard shield pressure" LOOK at what westballz actually wrote

"every shield pressure has flaws but to me this one has the least amount of them and its very hard to punish" <- implies that it is the "best " shieldpressure"

and yes it is obviously fairly legitimate when mixxed in with others shieldpressures BUT the fact remains that it is a nerfed version of normal JC shins in almost every way imaginable

 

[FoxLisk]

Leffen stop nobody thinks you're being reasonable

 

[Mahone]

I think he's being reasonable...

what's everyone's problem, he's just offering options on how to deal with it, he's giving everyone cold hard facts that they can test on their own and explore if they don't want to believe them at face value (which no one should ever do anyway imo).

A lot more progress gets made when people challenge new ideas and try to find ways around them rather than 100 people just saying "OMFG THATS AMAZING!!!" (of course that should happen too because this thread shouldn't just always be super serious theory bros)

I personally think westballz has the best shield pressure of any falco player atm, but I'm also willing to listen to people who claim it has certain weaknessess that can be exploited, i don't see the harm that can come from that.

 

[omgwtfToph]

well i mean it's shield pressure, of course it has some holes lol there's no perfect or safe shield pressure in this game. technically speaking, shine OOS beats almost anything - but it's not feasible to do so on reaction.

also lovage i know you feel as though this argument has been worthless, but it provided me with a lot of entertainment so THANKS BRO

 

[Jim Morrison]

Gotta agree, leffen is at least generating some discussion and sharing thoughts on the subject. If we're just like "oh hey it's awesome let me know when someone finds a counter", you won't know what to expect. At least leffen has given some insight in what opponents can do when you try this on them, AKA spotdodge or shine OoS. Now I can expect them, instead of just thinking "IS THIS SAFE OR NOT OH GOD".

At least, that's how it is for a mediocre player like me, and I thought this thread was mostly to offer insights to noobs like me :\

 

[shadrach kabango]

this thread ***** so hard

 

[Strong Badam]

^I like this guy

 

[JPOBS]

I get what leffen's saying, even if (as usual) he's coming off really hostile for no reason.

Isn't it really obvious just from general knowledge that the airdodge+waveland after the second shine is shieldgrab-able? I mean, its no secret that wavelanding is really slow framwise >_>
Of course that doesn't mean you'll get it every time in a match because of all the other tricks falco can do to mix it up.

Honestly, if it was me, I'd just buffer roll away after the second shine. Super easy, low risk, and the lag on the waveland means I get away for free. *shrug*
Still really cool.

BC falcos like blunted object have been doing actual grounded double and triple shine shield pressure for like two years.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, could you test spotdodge against the strategy? Specifically after the first shine and with the falco accounting for the second one hitting (so he jumps out of it slower)

Fox is doing a 1 frame late spotdodge (buffered)
Falco is doing 2 frame late double shine with hitlag compensation on the 2nd shine.


+5 advantage fox

 

[Brookman]

I get what leffen's saying, even if (as usual) he's coming off really hostile for no reason.

I don't know what is worse, leffen being outwardly aggressive - or you, being passively aggressive.

DIP