unknown522
Some guy
I guess he may not have known the power of n-air oos
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
or he was getting shield pressured well and panicked
shield pressure and reacting to it is nowhere near as easy, or simple (two different things) as people make it sound sometimes lolz
shield pressure and reacting to it is nowhere near as easy, or simple (two different things) as people make it sound sometimes lolz
Sinji
Smash Master
yea but you can do an option out of shield after shine or if they are just using aerials in their shield pressure you can grab them out of it. It mostly about having the patience in your shield. But then there are some cases when you get shine grabbed. That's the real nerve wrecker lol.
Silent Wolf
...
sinji youre just doing what toph said was wrong lol. and you shouldnt expect to shield grab them lol. and its scary because nair shine pressure can easily be switched up while its happening, so just doing something after shine isnt always safe and doesnt always work.
also jab is great as a mixup in shield pressure because people dont see it coming if you use it sparingly. people expect shine (which can immediately be followed up) so you usually have enough time to shine or do something else after it. in this case, tope finally saw a way out of the pressure and took it but that was oscars plan obviously. idk what youre confused about
*what toph said*
also jab is great as a mixup in shield pressure because people dont see it coming if you use it sparingly. people expect shine (which can immediately be followed up) so you usually have enough time to shine or do something else after it. in this case, tope finally saw a way out of the pressure and took it but that was oscars plan obviously. idk what youre confused about
Bing
Smash Master
So Im just starting to think about Sheild pressure and things of that sort, and I cant Multishine(JC shine) but I was wondering is that if you Waveshine in place a few times then I dunno throw out a bair/nair or u-tilt or something like that. Any thoughts?
Im thinking that if Im in front of the other person, I could wave-shine inbehind them, waveshine in place 3-5 times then throw out a poke.
Im thinking that if Im in front of the other person, I could wave-shine inbehind them, waveshine in place 3-5 times then throw out a poke.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I guess I wasn't confused but more surprised. He could have tried to shield grab after any of those aerials or the jab and worst case scenario he gets hit by shine and lands on the ledge. Best case scenario he gets a grab and throws him off stage. I don't blame him or anything because anyone would be sketching out in their head with that kind of shield pressure. It's just interesting how people react in situations that really aren't that bad, just intimidating.
@Bing
It's not that hard to roll away from Fox's double shine, so just waveshining in place is pretty poor pressure. I think mixing in crossup waveshines can be good, but only if you've conditioned them to fear an aerial after shines. There's also the issue that even if you land a shine you can't get a guaranteed follow up if they don't fall over (unless it's like Link or maybe Peach, idk).
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
waveshining in place is like pretty good sometimes if they're conditioned to respect your pressure. Westballz does this doubleshine -> wavedash in place -> continue pressure thing that has the added benefit of working whether or not you did the doubleshine "properly" or not.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
A question specifically about that westballz shieldpressure, why does he rise ever so slightly off from the ground during the wavedash? Is there added benefit as opposed to doing it super close/flat to the ground?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXOuzY-dGuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXOuzY-dGuc
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
No there isn't
I assume it's just because he can't do them consistently grounded
I assume it's just because he can't do them consistently grounded
Bing
Smash Master
Yeah but if they roll away from it you're waveshining so could you not just chase the roll and if you can't reach the roll with your shine, a down-smash should.
Lovage
Smash Hero
quick question cuz im 2 lazy to go to other threads: does falco's shine have more stun than fox's?
cause i wish i could replicate wes' falco shield pressure but when i think about it in my head, fox's shine would NOT work like that.
cause i wish i could replicate wes' falco shield pressure but when i think about it in my head, fox's shine would NOT work like that.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Doesn't it do like 8% to Fox's 5% or something
I think it does but I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it
I think it does but I guess I wouldn't bet my life on it
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Falco's shine has more shield stun, but most of it gets eaten by his slower jump startup.
Sinji
Smash Master
I see what your saying
I usually get DC'd for it near the edge. but I find it hard because I'm at the edge and I dont know what to do. My shine hitbox fails because of the spaced nair I receive.
Fortress | Sveet
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I've been thinking more about perfect waveshine out of shield... sometimes i'd rather waveshine usmash than bair, either for power or for speed. Plus it can't be cc ***** at low percents like bair can. Basically I want to shine combo out of shield like falco...
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
it's really, really good vs falcon and sheik.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
Lol, this has been my goal for the past few months. Waveshine upsmash out of shield, thunders out of shield (still cant get this one right), and friggin wes double shine shenanigans.I've been thinking more about perfect waveshine out of shield... sometimes i'd rather waveshine usmash than bair, either for power or for speed. Plus it can't be cc ***** at low percents like bair can. Basically I want to shine combo out of shield like falco...
Fortress | Sveet
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Idk about thunders OoS, but at least tech chasing off the shine would be nice. If only shine->dair covered missed tech...
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
if you wanna do stuff after waveshine oos on a space animal, I'd say dash attack (or usmash if you're eggm) are probably your best options
me personally though I just back the **** off LOL. that **** is hella hard
me personally though I just back the **** off LOL. that **** is hella hard
rokimomi
Smash Lord
hehe, that's why we gotta make these things staple fox OOS options toph, so everyone can fear us
Fortress | Sveet
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I still can't reliably do it. School is almost over, though, so i will be able to practice these things in my room with the lights off
rokimomi
Smash Lord
same method, but I do remember that timing was a huge part of it, separate out the different parts of your waveshine, and make sure you're doing them in order and not just one big jumbled mash (like control stick direction too soon or something, which will work fine for forwards so you may not have noticed it before)
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
you n me pika av ^__^
WestBallz
Smash Ace
Actually people were wrong....Yes it does give an added bonus thats why i do it. Its actually quite amazing and ill describe why. Alright 2 reason why i do my second shine late.
reason #1 : If u do the second shine in the air u can simply press jump and R as fast as u can so instead of waiting for your jumping animation from a perfect jc shine you dont have to wait for any lag. Thus making it MUCH MUCH MUCH FASTER than u think it would be thats why alot of people have problems with it.
reason #2 : You get invincibiliy believe it or not. Air dodging down the second shine basically gives u a good amount of frames where u can't be hit and the second u land on the floor again u go from invincibility to being able to shield pressure once again. Ive actually dodged an upsmash oos during my airdodge and punished accordingly. This happens frequently and is one of the best shield pressure's ive ever encountered. I almost never get hit during my double shine shield pressure because the simple fact of having this invincibility.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
u clever mofo, I didnt even notice the shine was in the air each time before
enCouRaging Bear
Smash Journeyman
I meant Personally does he do it differently. I know its the same method but I'm thinking it might be easier to have separate Tech for each to account for the different timing, if that makes sense?
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Lol I watch that video of you then read this very good description of a cool technique you've already integrated into your game I've never really seen before that sounds and looked really good and then laugh at all those idiots in the Falco discussion thread that said you aren't really inventive and suck because you just do what works over and over. **** was stupid.
rokimomi
Smash Lord
oh, lol, didn't see the "hey wolf"
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Wow that is next level.
Lovage
Smash Hero
hahaha whenever wes makes a long post i read it in his voice exactly cuz i've had this **** explained to me many times LOL
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
that is sick
talking to westballz is sick LOL
talking to westballz is sick LOL
WestBallz
Smash Ace
unknown522
Some guy
Some things to say since I can't multi quote on the phone:
@ bing: waveshining is unsafe on shield. It is only to be done as a mixup. Doing it more than one on the shield in a row is definitely going to get you punished.
@ lovage: yeah as KK said, falco's shine has more hitstun but it gets eaten up by the slower jump startup. Falco's shine grab is better because of more stun though.
@ Westballz: depending on the height of your air dodge (basically if it's too low) you may not he invincibility and just end up lagging yourself more. You still have 10 frames of landing lag so the invincibility doesn't matter anyway for it.
I'm saying it cuz things like n-air oos and shine oos are gonna hurt you.
Or if they jus WD oos
@ bing: waveshining is unsafe on shield. It is only to be done as a mixup. Doing it more than one on the shield in a row is definitely going to get you punished.
@ lovage: yeah as KK said, falco's shine has more hitstun but it gets eaten up by the slower jump startup. Falco's shine grab is better because of more stun though.
@ Westballz: depending on the height of your air dodge (basically if it's too low) you may not he invincibility and just end up lagging yourself more. You still have 10 frames of landing lag so the invincibility doesn't matter anyway for it.
I'm saying it cuz things like n-air oos and shine oos are gonna hurt you.
Or if they jus WD oos
JPOBS
Smash Hero
yo, screw all this logic. Didnt you hear? you're bad cuz u win tournies. Stop trippin
leffen
Smash Champion
lol westballz technique is cool and its easy to be consistent with
but its overall much worse than clean doubleshines, esp fox
First off, westballz delay off the second shine makes it so that fox can shine oos, everyone can roll/spotdodge, some can probably buffer jump oos (like vs fox's shine grab) everytime (esp when the shine is staled) while a true doubleshine beats all those options.
Spotdodge specifically ***** this technique and its fatal to its use since spotdodge also wins over shinegrab.since falcos shine has considerable hitlag on shield you will be sitting in the shine way longer than required, allowing even marth and cf to punish it via spotdodge.
You cannot start doing retreating wavedashes either since the shine is high up
and you would not be able to react with jumping out of the second shine since it is to fast and even if you predict them and do it you won't be able to punish them and you've just used your second jump.
Notably, if your opponent DI's the shine away you cannot combo, when you do it with fox and they jump out before the second shine hits them they get a free punish.
It also gets ***** by lightshield and shield DI since you cannot follow in any way (if the second shine misses because of good shield DI you're sooo ****ed)
The invinciblity from the "airdodge" is almost worthless. Not only is the invincibility very short, it also has some startup (3 frames iirc+jump), the invincibility occurs when they are safe anyway unless you sit in the shine for waaaaaaaaaay too long and 90% of all good oos moves would be safe from punishment anyway since you lag a long time from the airdodge
If you wanna dodge an attack oos then just retreat or shield/wavedash lol
I don't mean to hate, but this **** is just a easier version (if even that) of doubleshine that has less reward and more risk and is more situational.
This reminds me of everyone who thinks mangos shine-jump-shine-waveland on platform was "unbeatable" when its super easy to punish if you predict it
It's just a gimmick, you'll realize this once people start adapting against it.
Sorry for exposing the technique though LOL
but its overall much worse than clean doubleshines, esp fox
First off, westballz delay off the second shine makes it so that fox can shine oos, everyone can roll/spotdodge, some can probably buffer jump oos (like vs fox's shine grab) everytime (esp when the shine is staled) while a true doubleshine beats all those options.
Spotdodge specifically ***** this technique and its fatal to its use since spotdodge also wins over shinegrab.since falcos shine has considerable hitlag on shield you will be sitting in the shine way longer than required, allowing even marth and cf to punish it via spotdodge.
You cannot start doing retreating wavedashes either since the shine is high up
and you would not be able to react with jumping out of the second shine since it is to fast and even if you predict them and do it you won't be able to punish them and you've just used your second jump.
Notably, if your opponent DI's the shine away you cannot combo, when you do it with fox and they jump out before the second shine hits them they get a free punish.
It also gets ***** by lightshield and shield DI since you cannot follow in any way (if the second shine misses because of good shield DI you're sooo ****ed)
The invinciblity from the "airdodge" is almost worthless. Not only is the invincibility very short, it also has some startup (3 frames iirc+jump), the invincibility occurs when they are safe anyway unless you sit in the shine for waaaaaaaaaay too long and 90% of all good oos moves would be safe from punishment anyway since you lag a long time from the airdodge
If you wanna dodge an attack oos then just retreat or shield/wavedash lol
I don't mean to hate, but this **** is just a easier version (if even that) of doubleshine that has less reward and more risk and is more situational.
This reminds me of everyone who thinks mangos shine-jump-shine-waveland on platform was "unbeatable" when its super easy to punish if you predict it
It's just a gimmick, you'll realize this once people start adapting against it.
Sorry for exposing the technique though LOL