Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Sinji]

I just went into AR and counted :/ variance comes from not being able to do a perfect angle on the airdodge possibly losing a frame (at most 2).

be careful of the numbers you trust lol

Yea. I double check the frame data.

 

[Brookman]

I swear last time we brought up the frame data on ledgedashing someone claimed it was 16... damn fox boards >_>

landing lag has four frames ???

 

[Sinji]

I thought landing lag had less then 4 frames.

 

[Druggedfox]

landing lag has four frames ???

After you said that I went back and read; I didn't notice that sveet said "actionable" specifically. Well, that mystery is solved =P

 

[JPOBS]

I'm just saying that while I think ledgedashing is basically the most **** thing ever that nobody does, it's still not a necessary tool to be successful as a Fox main ... yet

Umm...that mostly depends on who you're watching.
Unknown uses ledgedash almost exclusively (read: like 80%), Eggm does it a ton, jman has done it a lot in his recent vids, even noboies like me almost always go for the ledgedash unless I'm sure I can get a drill or something. I guess what I'm saying is, it isn't really all that underused.

The bigger thing to note about the ledgedash is that, sure you could in theory do it every single time, but its real utility comes from making your opponent respect that you CAN do it, then all of a sudden all of your other ledge options become more viable and you don't have to ledgedash so much and risk SD'ing.

When you can ledgedash into a perfect waveshines and then kill with upsmash, that tells you opponent "hey punk, you better back the **** up of the edge or imma **** you." Then they almost let you back on for free and you don't have to ledgedash as much.

tl;dr get good at ledgedashing, make your opponent respect it, then ledgedash less to minimize risk....or just keep doing it.

 

[Wenbobular]

In theory yes it's better to ledgedash less when they're clearly respecting you doing it to prevent the possibility of SDs, but ...

In practice, old habits die super hard from my experience ... in one game I probably ledgedash upsmashed DoH like 5 times because he'd just stand in the optimal range for me to do so <_<
Happens with all sorts of players because standing / jumping in that range is the optimal choice for covering ... basically every other option, but happens to be the absolute worst place to be against a Fox with clean ledgedashes

Also maybe it's just me but I have to ledgedash every time because I rely almost exclusively on muscle memory and having to think about whether or not I should be ledgedashing screws it up ... it's to the point where sometimes I'll ledgedash onto the stage after edgehogging someone despite there obviously being no need

I don't watch unknown vids so I can't really say anything about that, but Eggm and Jman do other options when they could be ledgedashing and being safer ... I know I've seen both of them use it, but just throwing it out a couple times a match (or stock even) isn't going to get your opponent to respect your ledge options until you show willingness to do it every time it's feasible (or just every time, period)

Anyways I'm sure the Fox boards are already hella bored of me telling them that ledgedashing is broken so I'll stop there

Also I was exaggerating when I said nobody
I guess I meant nobody that I've seen (should watch some unknown vids now <_<) abuses it the way I think it should be abused

Actually I was impressed that zgetto was willing to use it a lot in some recent vids vs Amsah haha

 

[JPOBS]

Yea I agree with all of that. If you can do great ledgedashs and constantly get free upsmashes and stuff then keep the good time rollin'

 

[earla]

anything else that may be difficult but under-used/not commonly abused with fox?

 

[Sinji]

Fsmash is uncommonly used.

Unlike falco, foxes hitbox is very small for fsmash.

 

[Wenbobular]

...What?

I think shortening the illusion is still somewhat underused, but most of the better Foxes have at least started using / abusing it
I think it's still a little too underused to be called standard Fox recovery (even though it should be part of every Fox's repertoire as it makes you a ***** to edgeguard when you're in shorten range)

I don't think anyone practices the weird angles that save you from getting Battlefielded on Battlefield but they can come in handy every so often

I also don't think enough Foxes can consistently sweetspot from below to avoid getting countered / killed by onstage edgeguards ... making Marth's onstage counter / most forms of onstage edgeguarding obsolete is pretty amazing (still susceptible to walk-off counters but most Marths don't know to do that)
Relevant stages - FoD, FD, Dreamland, Yoshi's (a lot harder on Yoshi's though because the lip curves downward)

Also PC ledgehogs - I only ever see Jman ever use them and it's a pretty sweet trick

 

[earla]

pc ledgehog?

hey, i saw this vid of m2k and he grabs the ledge then ledge hops back at a diagonal then fast falls and regrabs edge. anyone know how much vulnerability fox has?

what are foxes safest ledge stalls?

 

[Wenbobular]

Perfect firestalling <_<

The backward ledgehop is pretty good for edgehogging Luigi sometimes because the fire might burn him if you're a little slow, same with Marth

If your timing / firestall is good enough it shouldn't matter though

 

[earla]

no i mean, i seen him just ledge hop back and fast fall regrab edge, no firefox.

 

[Wenbobular]

I know ... I meant the backward ledgehop is pretty good vs Luigi and Marth if you're bad at firestalling
Guess I should've been more clear

 

[KAOSTAR]

man wtf are average foxes doing these days? its just weird to hear things like ledge dashing, awkward firefox angles, and shortened illusions aren't standard. I guess I have a skewed view of the fox meta game. and *****s still don't jc waveshine, dash cancel jabs/up tilts, shine land, among other things. practice some ****ing tech skill all that **** should be standard.

also I wasn't implying that my fox is above average, just something that low key bothers me about fox players.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It still confuses me that the go-to vs. Marth after throw is F-tilt for the majority of Sheik players instead of something homosexual that actually makes a combo. But average players are strange creatures.

 

[Wenbobular]

Haha Kaostar. My impression of the average Fox (or Falco) is that they still haven't implemented all the things that makes Fox (or Falco) a difficult character to edgeguard and would rather practice fun stuff like being fast than boring stuff like recovery / ledge options

 

[Pengie]

What in god's name is Shine Landing?

 

[Palpi]

I think it is when you jump through a platform and you shine right as you go through and you will just land on the platform.

 

[Pengie]

If the whole point is to shine through the platform to cover their wake up, why not just steal what Falco players have been doing since around 2008 and just shine -> waveland on platform -> ****? Seems a lot easier than getting down the timing/spacing for that. On top of that it seems more versatile; you could cover their wake up on a platform without committing to one option like you would with land on the platform with a shine and then being forced to jump out.

Unless Shine Landing refers to Shine -> waveland in which case lol why haven't Fox players jumped on that train yet?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox's Shine doesn't lead to much even if you hit it in that sort of situation.

 

[Palpi]

I agree, it is a gimmicky follow up at best...on bad players lol

 

[FoxLisk]

If the whole point is to shine through the platform to cover their wake up, why not just steal what Falco players have been doing since around 2008 and just shine -> waveland on platform -> ****? Seems a lot easier than getting down the timing/spacing for that. On top of that it seems more versatile; you could cover their wake up on a platform without committing to one option like you would with land on the platform with a shine and then being forced to jump out.

Unless Shine Landing refers to Shine -> waveland in which case lol why haven't Fox players jumped on that train yet?

because if you actually shine land you save ilke four hundred thousand frames of lag

 

[Pengie]

So are most of Fox's follow-ups on people's wake up on platform that aren't grab/uair into more Fox shenanigans.

because if you actually shine land you save ilke four hundred thousand frames of lag

I must be missing something if whatever Shine Landing is gives you less than the ten frames of waveland lag. Once again, anyone care to clarify what Shine Landing is?

 

[Palpi]

You don't have to jump out and wave land on a shine land, you just jump through the platform and shine. I am fairly sure PP does this with falco alot.

 

[KAOSTAR]

shine land *****. follow ups are there. its **** shields ressure. *****s just don't know. somebody shielding on a platform...shine grab land...idk what to call it. fox just gets off.

there is so much more to fox, don't ppl experiment anymore?

I don't care no more im bout to get mad good and become a tech fiend.

 

[Silent Wolf]

shine landing is slower than just shining then jumping and wavelanding when it hits and should never be used as a standard technique.

when you hit someone with the shine it gives you lag and delays the time youre in the air before actually landing.

especially with fox, its not even clsoe to good. falco you could make somethin happen vs someone bad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

shine land *****. follow ups are there. its **** shields ressure. *****s just don't know. somebody shielding on a platform...shine grab land...idk what to call it. fox just gets off.

This is why you should play Mewtwo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shine landing is slower than just shining then jumping and wavelanding when it hits and should never be used as a standard technique.

when you hit someone with the shine it gives you lag and delays the time youre in the air before actually landing.

especially with fox, its not even clsoe to good. falco you could make somethin happen vs someone bad.

are you sure about this? I was under the impression that a shine landing was simply shining in such a way that the game counted you as grounded on the platform when you did it. I don't understand where the extra lag comes from, you should be able to jump out like normal, except with a ground jump animation.

 

[Silent Wolf]

are you sure about this? I was under the impression that a shine landing was simply shining in such a way that the game counted you as grounded on the platform when you did it. I don't understand where the extra lag comes from, you should be able to jump out like normal, except with a ground jump animation.

The extra lag comes from hitting someones shield, which would be the likeliest theoretical use for shine landing. If you were trying to use shine land in some other way you might as well just waveland.

I am sure, in terms of neutral stages, aside from specific spots on the slopes on yoshi's. Even on the slope in the right spot you would still be in the air for all the lag time you have so it still sucks.

EDIT: actually, I think it might be possible to effectively use it from a certain point on a slope under a platform, seeing as how when you do multi shines youre in the air at one point and you can do them on a shield. still impractical though.

First let me say that if you were to just shine and land exactly on the platform there wouldn't even be a hit box. There is only a 1 frame opening to shine land (this goes for any platform), so if the platform isn't the right height you will have to be in the air longer before you land. For Fox, none of these stages are very good for shine landing because the closest openings just aren't very convenient, even if you weren't to hit someone or their shield. Falcos are more convenient but still impractical.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So its really an impracticality issue?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Its really an impracticality issue on a very certain point on the slope on yoshis. other than that its not even plausible.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Even with the use of double jumps?

 

[Silent Wolf]

im not really sure, havent tested it with double jumps. id bet it could be done with double jumps on some neutral stages tho.

 

[FluxWolf]

waveland -> upsmash GG

 

[KAOSTAR]

shine landing is slower than just shining then jumping and wavelanding when it hits and should never be used as a standard technique.

when you hit someone with the shine it gives you lag and delays the time youre in the air before actually landing.

especially with fox, its not even clsoe to good. falco you could make somethin happen vs someone bad.

I was unaware that it produced extra lag when it was done perfectly from below. I thought that you were considered grounded as the shine comes out. (I do know that the invisible shine from dj on ys top platform has a hitbox tho)

I thought that foxs shine only had no hitbox in pseudo invisible mode, where it doesnt come out until frame 4 and if you were to take into account jumping forwards and backwards as well as straight up(and possibly using your dj), then you should be able to get solid shine lands on any platform.(maybe not perfect but jc shine equivalent)

and with a JC shine there are like 3 frames of falling lag when you hit a shield, which if u planned on grabbing afterwards or wanted to get an upthrow upair on something like a DL platform-jc shine-grab it still faster than shine WLing into a grab. And since its primarily done on shields, a shine grab is generally a legitimately good option, and def unexpected in that situation. You can also multishine as you suggested.

idk, I may have over hyped that **** lol, maybe its too complicated for good use. I was mainly just ranting on the fact that fox is sooo good, and ppl play this game for hours on end but there are hella things ppl dont do just because it takes a lil bit of practice.

 

[Wenbobular]

I'm also waiting for ledgetech instant illusion to become standard for Fox recovery
Unfortunately it's pretty hard to implement because you have to remember to do it appropriately and I'm too used to habitually walltechjumpFirefox even when I do remember that walltech side-b is like almost strictly better

 

[Sinji]

This isn't related to fox recovery, but who edgetech shines? Its useful and it works in certain angles.

 

[Wenbobular]

Are you talking about teching to survive shinespikes? I think most people can do it if they're good at wallteching (and by now, who isn't <_<)

Sometimes it can be weirdly tricky to tech shines though and I'm not sure why :|

 

[Sinji]

Yea i mean teching survive shinespikes.