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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

unknown522

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Sinji said:
I have a question. Is FOD in peaches favor in terms of stage advantage? The rising and falling platforms gives peach the advantage to dsmash when your under the platform.

Any advice?
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I love FoD vs peach. They can't run from me all day.

Just don't run into their platform d-smash
 
KAOSTAR

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
8,084
Location
The Wash: Lake City
happy birthday sveet.

idk brookman, it just seems like we are talking about high level play, and MUs are less important because ppl tend to know the MUs...they just have to figure out how to beat their opponent, that style **** lovage was talking about.
 
TheLake

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
Whoa whoa i heard there were chicks in this thread

Not sure where i heard it...

But I did i swear

go to hope foos
 
Silent Wolf

Silent Wolf

...
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
happy bday sveet

2 players at equal skill...comes down to who plays the MU better. but when MU skill is equal then its the opposite (assuming equal MU skill balances out the character choices)
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saw this and just wanted to say if the match up skill is equal then player skill would just be part of that. it always just comes down to who plays the match up better, only that.
 
ERayz

ERayz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
292
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Lachute, QC
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
When you're pressuring Ganon, assume he's gonna try to Dair OOS if you're behind him (they will attempt it at some point). If you're behind him, don't bother with the Shine. Just do Nairs and Bairs (or Uairs, if you're feeling like Chillin) so you'll hit him out of his OOS game and you'll be able to follow him if he goes elsewhere.

Don't roll into him.

Don't get above him so much. You give him a lot of free Uairs by jumping onto platforms unnecessarily.

You need to grab him a lot more. Especially at mid to high percents.

After about 105% or so, if Ganon is recovering onto the stage with Up+B you can just hold the edge and stand up as he lands onstage and then U-smash him for the KO. It's really effective.

You don't always have to Shine after your Nair. Sometimes you can combo to U-tilt, dash attack, U-smash, or grab. Don't be so automatic about Shining after your Nair.

Your approaches are predictable. You attempt to rush in when he's moving back into his perfect Ganon position a lot, which is bad. You don't seem to have any issues shooting lasers so relax a little and don't attack him out of panic. Move around and try to stay outside of that Ganon zone; when he closes the gap or begins to move forward, that's your chance to take control again.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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I still can't do the chillin.. the inputs go against everything i've ever learned about fox shield pressure.
 
ERayz

ERayz

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Messages
292
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Lachute, QC
KirbyKaze said:
You don't always have to Shine after your Nair. Sometimes you can combo to U-tilt, dash attack, U-smash, or grab. Don't be so automatic about Shining after your Nair.
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You're not the first one to tell me this, but I really don't get how I could do anything (other than shine) after my nair without getting punished, since I would lag longer.

I even heard things like: After you nair, you can DD grab or WD behind Ganon to U-tilt, but when I do anything other than shine, Ganon has a free Shield Grab

I nee someone to explain me how not to get punished for doing so.
 
earla

earla

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
1,422
1. is there foxes LEDGE OPTIONS anywhere? got frame data from superdoodlemans website and his ledge options aren't there.

i want to know what are foxes best and how many frames of vulnerability on each.

2. is there any data of foxes moves 'shield dis/advantage' whenever you hit opponents shield? trying to gauge the safety of his moves generally.

3. what are good ways to bait with fox?
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Ledgedashing is far and away the best ledge option if you do it well ... you get like 15 actionable frames of invincibility or something which gives you plenty of room for error to get stuff like ledgedash invincible upsmash or at least ledgedash invincible shine / uptilt

Ledgedashing is good enough that you don't need any other ledge options really, but people don't spam it hard enough because they're like afraid of dying or something ... but half of the other options are so bad that at high% it might as well be a suicide

Then there's bad stuff like ledgehop illusion or stand -> buffer roll that people don't punish hard enough so it's "safe" if you're smart, but are still way worse than ledgedashing because you don't really have to outsmart anyone when you're invincible the entire time

But Lovage won a tournament doing ledgehop drill at like every opportunity so what do I know ~_~

I think frame perfect shieldgrab always beats drill (but who does that), but late Nair and Bair are safe with a shine
In general late aerial -> shine or late aerial -> dash back won't be shieldgrabbed

Baiting is a pretty general question <_<

@Erayz - You should be able to react to whether or not you hit a shield - if you hit someone who isn't shielding with a Nair, shine is usually the worst option because they get out of your combo for free, whereas everything KK listed either gets you more hits or at least positional advantage

Also doing a late enough Nair that's spaced properly lets you dash back without too much worry about shieldgrabs ... but it's also a conditioning thing where if you have to force them to respect your Nair on shield enough to not shieldgrab, you can start not shining every time you hit their shield and go for riskier things like trying to get behind them

I sometimes do late Nair -> cross up Nair on Falcon's shield because his shield options are so bad that getting behind them basically guarantees they try to roll out at some point
 
FoxLisk

FoxLisk

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Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
earla said:
1. is there foxes LEDGE OPTIONS anywhere? got frame data from superdoodlemans website and his ledge options aren't there.

i want to know what are foxes best and how many frames of vulnerability on each.
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ledgedash has like an insane number of actionable invulnerable frames. all the other ones are guessing games.
2. is there any data of foxes moves 'shield dis/advantage' whenever you hit opponents shield? trying to gauge the safety of his moves generally.
Click to expand...
probably. i can tell you that his aerials are roughly safe if you shine after them but there are always punishable gaps. all his ground moves have to be spaced appropriately to not get punished.
3. what are good ways to bait with fox?
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uh. acting as if you're going to do something your opponent can punish, then doing something different so you can punish his attempted punish. its not like a fox-specific thing.

try dash dancing if you just dont wanna do any thinking for yourself
 
earla

earla

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Aug 29, 2008
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fox vs fox and falco.

while they're in the moving state of their up b, i notice sometimes i can shine them out of it and sometimes i cant. how frame tight is it? how do you space it correctly?

also, ledgedashing, anyone know exactly how many frames of active invincibility you get? 17? i want to be sure so i can consider what safe options i have.

also, which other chars ledgedashes give them lots of invincibility? so i can be careful edge guarding them. does sheik?
how can you COUNTER people ledgedashing perfectly with invincibility?

does marth have a good ledgedash?
 
FoxLisk

FoxLisk

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earla said:
fox vs fox and falco.

while they're in the moving state of their up b, i notice sometimes i can shine them out of it and sometimes i cant. how frame tight is it? how do you space it correctly?

also, ledgedashing, anyone know exactly how many frames of active invincibility you get? 17? i want to be sure so i can consider what safe options i have.

also, which other chars ledgedashes give them lots of invincibility? so i can be careful edge guarding them. does sheik?
how can you COUNTER people ledgedashing perfectly with invincibility?

does marth have a good ledgedash?
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1) just dont bother

2) sure sounds about right

3) falco's, pichu's, i think some others

4) you can't COUNTER someone being completely invulnerable. think about what you're saying. think about the situation. us holding your hand isnt gonna help you learn anyway

5) marth has a ledgedash that many players have used very effectively. in terms of absolute like frames of invuln and stuff I would warrant that he does not.
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
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May 26, 2006
Messages
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@ Lovage - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ECrf1juD0

Every time you're on the ledge and MacD is within about a platform length from the ledge you do a ledgehop drill (except for one time where I think you mess up and do a ledge jump)

I'm not trying to knock you for it, I'm just saying that while I think ledgedashing is basically the most **** thing ever that nobody does, it's still not a necessary tool to be successful as a Fox main ... yet

Marth's ledgedash blows compared to Fox's but it's easier to do because it's so slow, also it goes far enough and has just enough invincibility to go right past most (bad) attempts at hitting you while you're getting off the ledge

@Sinji - I'd like to just think the Fox you're playing is just bad at shining after his drill, but we have no way to know one way or the other xD
 
Lovage

Lovage

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Apr 15, 2007
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lol thats cuz macd was playing like a ****** so i was pretty much just ****ing around that set


you wont catch me doing that **** if my opponents ****** me for it


ok maybe you will

but i prolly just needed to make somethin happen cuz i was behind LOL
 
Wenbobular

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
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May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Haha
I see you mostly mix it up between ledgehop drill and illusion onstage, and usually it's good enough

I just think that ledgedashing is basically strictly better than both options and is probably the best option to answer earla with
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

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Dec 21, 2005
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I just went into AR and counted :/ variance comes from not being able to do a perfect angle on the airdodge possibly losing a frame (at most 2).

be careful of the numbers you trust lol
 
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