Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

I can shdl with X. Only semi-consistently, but still.

I never understood the "X works bad for spacies" notion.

I've never understood the "only use one button for everything" notion on the whole.

I have a myriad of different button combinations for very situation specific and technique specific usages, and I employ all 3 methods of jumping depending on what I'm doing.

I don't understand why most people seem to only want to use one button.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I only use 1 button cause im cool like that. only time i use up to jump is when i do shine-bairs with fox/falco. I never use X cause i find Y to be more ergonomic

 

[Strong Badam]

I switch to index finger on y to do rising uairs on occasion, L-canceling with my middle finger. It's important for DK combos. I'd probably do it all the time if I used L for L-canceling & wavedashing, but it's just too hard to use my middle finger all the time. Starts hurting :/

BigWenz: i just did reverse SHDL first try with X and I don't even use it....

 

[ArcNatural]

blasphemy. x button is only bad for like shdl (i honestly dont think its possible but im probs wrong) i find x button fine for everything else.

Being someone who has used both, The only real difficulty I had with X is shffl nair shine pressure with Fox.

With X I felt I had to do it as fast as possible to get it out, making it hard to vary between rising nairs or late nairs during the pressure. IE going to B -> X ->Z/A was tricky repeatedly

With Y I feel I can be lazy and do anything anyway.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I switch to index finger on y to do rising uairs on occasion, L-canceling with my middle finger. It's important for DK combos. I'd probably do it all the time if I used L for L-canceling & wavedashing, but it's just too hard to use my middle finger all the time. Starts hurting :/

Yeah I like rising uairs with index finger on Y for uthrow uair and stuff. :D

 

[Brookman]

yo, what do you guys know about shield pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L35jTlLf54M&feature=feedu

 

[Palpi]

yo, what do you guys know about shield pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L35jTlLf54M&feature=feedu

neat

10chars

 

[Sinji]

yo, what do you guys know about shield pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L35jTlLf54M&feature=feedu

LOL.

The two players were playing at Jamaica.

Brilliant stuff.

Btw, How do you fight jiggs? Its kinda frustrating fighting her. her bair has a long hitbox. any advice?

 

[omgwtfToph]

One thing that not nearly enough foxes do against Jigglypuff is effectively timing the wavedash forward out of shield both to escape the corner and to counter Jigglypuff's bair wall. Mango does it really well in a bunch of matches against hbox (fox vs. puff) but I'm at work right now so I can't really go video hunting. Wavedash forward oos jab is good. You have to do some reading as to how the Jigglypuff is going to place his aerials - rising bairs, falling bairs. like, if the jigglypuff is going to fade away and land after the next bair, you can wavedash forward oos and jab/dair/nair into stuff. If the jigglypuff is going to do a rising bair to pre-empt your jump oos (which brings me to an important point, by the way - DON'T jump around too much! a lot of foxes try to cross "over" the jigglypuff to escape the corner, and you can get ****ed over for this - watch m2k vs hbox on rainbow cruise) then you want to cross under the jigglypuff and possibly do a retreating bair as you reclaim space, hitting the jigglypuff from behind.

Soft nair/bair combos into usmash. Normal nairs at higher percents (~90%) combo into uair. So you've got ways to kill besides uthrow usmash. Although, just being patient and trying to find an opening to grab is pretty effective too.

When you're in close quarters, hold shield and a direction to pre-empt the uthrow rest. Don't get stupid with your tech patterns on platforms. Also, don't dashdance into jigglypuff's pound.

I think it was Lucky who said that on platform stages, it's good to camp the platforms to make jigglypuff approach you, and since Jigglypuff has such poor VERTICAL aerial mobility (unlike her superior horizontal aerial mobility) you then, as Fox, retreat to the ground, get under Jigglypuff, and sneak in bairs behind her. Which makes sense, although I've never had a chance to try this out because A) I live in Japan where there are no good jigglypuffs and B) we only play FD over here. D:

Oh yeah, I personally really like FD vs. Jigglypuff but hey, it might just be because I've never fought like a hbox-level puff.

Lastly, I think there's a lot to be said for honestly just running away and lasering until Puff is at 60%, and then never approaching and purely seeking grabs (for uthrow usmash) or guaranteed combos into usmash (soft nair over the puff, for example). Most examples of camping failing vs. Puff are when the Fox gets impatient and finally does decide to fight, I think.

I hope I'm qualified to give advice on that matchup lol. It's all theorycraft though, cuz again I've never fought a really really good puff. Somebody be sure to point out anything I said wrong.

 

[Strong Badam]

I find it's easier to get grabs when you're applying pressure doing other stuff than just looking for grab opportunities. It's also important to not try to force the KO.

 

[omgwtfToph]

What I mean by that is not adding damage unnecessarily. I think Jigglypuff is a lot easier to kill around 60% than at 80%-100%, so at that point you start applying your pressure via dashdancing and positioning rather than continuing to find opportunities to get random bairs on the Jigglypuff. That way you don't build up % unnecessarily.

 

[Sinji]

One thing that not nearly enough foxes do against Jigglypuff is effectively timing the wavedash forward out of shield both to escape the corner and to counter Jigglypuff's bair wall. Mango does it really well in a bunch of matches against hbox (fox vs. puff) but I'm at work right now so I can't really go video hunting. Wavedash forward oos jab is good. You have to do some reading as to how the Jigglypuff is going to place his aerials - rising bairs, falling bairs. like, if the jigglypuff is going to fade away and land after the next bair, you can wavedash forward oos and jab/dair/nair into stuff. If the jigglypuff is going to do a rising bair to pre-empt your jump oos (which brings me to an important point, by the way - DON'T jump around too much! a lot of foxes try to cross "over" the jigglypuff to escape the corner, and you can get ****ed over for this - watch m2k vs hbox on rainbow cruise) then you want to cross under the jigglypuff and possibly do a retreating bair as you reclaim space, hitting the jigglypuff from behind.

Soft nair/bair combos into usmash. Normal nairs at higher percents (~90%) combo into uair. So you've got ways to kill besides uthrow usmash. Although, just being patient and trying to find an opening to grab is pretty effective too.

When you're in close quarters, hold shield and a direction to pre-empt the uthrow rest. Don't get stupid with your tech patterns on platforms. Also, don't dashdance into jigglypuff's pound.

I think it was Lucky who said that on platform stages, it's good to camp the platforms to make jigglypuff approach you, and since Jigglypuff has such poor VERTICAL aerial mobility (unlike her superior horizontal aerial mobility) you then, as Fox, retreat to the ground, get under Jigglypuff, and sneak in bairs behind her. Which makes sense, although I've never had a chance to try this out because A) I live in Japan where there are no good jigglypuffs and B) we only play FD over here. D:

Oh yeah, I personally really like FD vs. Jigglypuff but hey, it might just be because I've never fought like a hbox-level puff.

Lastly, I think there's a lot to be said for honestly just running away and lasering until Puff is at 60%, and then never approaching and purely seeking grabs (for uthrow usmash) or guaranteed combos into usmash (soft nair over the puff, for example). Most examples of camping failing vs. Puff are when the Fox gets impatient and finally does decide to fight, I think.

I hope I'm qualified to give advice on that matchup lol. It's all theorycraft though, cuz again I've never fought a really really good puff. Somebody be sure to point out anything I said wrong.

Good advice. I be sure to keep this in mind.

 

[unknown522]

One thing that not nearly enough foxes do against Jigglypuff is effectively timing the wavedash forward out of shield both to escape the corner and to counter Jigglypuff's bair wall. Mango does it really well in a bunch of matches against hbox (fox vs. puff) but I'm at work right now so I can't really go video hunting. Wavedash forward oos jab is good. You have to do some reading as to how the Jigglypuff is going to place his aerials - rising bairs, falling bairs. like, if the jigglypuff is going to fade away and land after the next bair, you can wavedash forward oos and jab/dair/nair into stuff. If the jigglypuff is going to do a rising bair to pre-empt your jump oos (which brings me to an important point, by the way - DON'T jump around too much! a lot of foxes try to cross "over" the jigglypuff to escape the corner, and you can get ****ed over for this - watch m2k vs hbox on rainbow cruise) then you want to cross under the jigglypuff and possibly do a retreating bair as you reclaim space, hitting the jigglypuff from behind.

Soft nair/bair combos into usmash. Normal nairs at higher percents (~90%) combo into uair. So you've got ways to kill besides uthrow usmash. Although, just being patient and trying to find an opening to grab is pretty effective too.

When you're in close quarters, hold shield and a direction to pre-empt the uthrow rest. Don't get stupid with your tech patterns on platforms. Also, don't dashdance into jigglypuff's pound.

I think it was Lucky who said that on platform stages, it's good to camp the platforms to make jigglypuff approach you, and since Jigglypuff has such poor VERTICAL aerial mobility (unlike her superior horizontal aerial mobility) you then, as Fox, retreat to the ground, get under Jigglypuff, and sneak in bairs behind her. Which makes sense, although I've never had a chance to try this out because A) I live in Japan where there are no good jigglypuffs and B) we only play FD over here. D:

Oh yeah, I personally really like FD vs. Jigglypuff but hey, it might just be because I've never fought like a hbox-level puff.

Lastly, I think there's a lot to be said for honestly just running away and lasering until Puff is at 60%, and then never approaching and purely seeking grabs (for uthrow usmash) or guaranteed combos into usmash (soft nair over the puff, for example). Most examples of camping failing vs. Puff are when the Fox gets impatient and finally does decide to fight, I think.

I hope I'm qualified to give advice on that matchup lol. It's all theorycraft though, cuz again I've never fought a really really good puff. Somebody be sure to point out anything I said wrong.

FD is most definitely the best stage vs jiggs.

DL is great to camp, but annoying to kill.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Btw when I said "ways to kill besides uthrow usmash" I meant "ways to kill besides uthrow uair."

 

[unknown522]

^ of course.

Also yeah, getting directly under jiggs is godly. Sometimes getting above jiggs sometimes can be painful, because of her u-air being deceptively long/wide and has assloads of priority. Still, using your speed to get around her is great. Also if jiggs whiffs b-air/u-air in an unsafe way, then you can run down from the platform and land aerials.

I also really hate when jiggs players throw out random pounds. It's so bad most of the time.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think it's hilarious jumping out there as Falcon and kneeing them when they think it's safe to pound
Too bad Fox has crappy horizontal

 

[Da Shuffla]

How does X suck for waveshining?

I just prefer to keep my thumb closer to B. It's easier to hit B with the 1st joint of your thumb, and then hit Y with the tip, rather than hitting B, and then quickly making your way over to X.

I don't just use Y. I use the control stick to jump in certain situations, but Y is just what's most comfortable for me. I should have said that it sucks for me. Use whatever is the easiest, though.

 

[TheLake]

Eww fox is so complicated/fun

You guys need to slow your game down

and join the dark side >:D

 

[voorhese]

zelda it is!

 

[Sinji]

I have a certain problem with falco. When falco approaches with late nair it prevents me from retaliating with a oos move like shine, bair, e.t.c. because falco has enough time to ether grab or shine. Its not that falco is out spacing me, but he prevents me from retaliating.

What should I do? Any advice?

 

[Wenbobular]

Falco can't guaranteed Nair -> grab you, what is this Smash64?

If he's Nair grabbing you shine out of shield after the Nair
If he's Nair->shine you usually have time to shine OoS after the shine until he starts double shining but I assume your friend isn't good enough yet to do that consistently

 

[ArcNatural]

I have a certain problem with falco. When falco approaches with late nair it prevents me from retaliating with a oos move like shine, bair, e.t.c. because falco has enough time to ether grab or shine. Its not that falco is out spacing me, but he prevents me from retaliating.

What should I do? Any advice?

Late nair to grab does not beat shine oos. His shine does beat your shine though.

Your main options are just buffer roll/spotdodge and prediction. If you think he will grab you can spotdodge it, if you think he will shine you can stay in shield and shine oos or wavedash oos after the shine, etc.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I have a certain problem with falco. When falco approaches with late nair it prevents me from retaliating with a oos move like shine, bair, e.t.c. because falco has enough time to ether grab or shine. Its not that falco is out spacing me, but he prevents me from retaliating.

What should I do? Any advice?

Buffer dat roll.

 

[Sinji]

Cool. I'l take all advice.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

for some reason i assumed sinji meant a shinegrab not a normal grab. could be wrong tho

 

[Palpi]

You can grab in between doubles shines can't you?

 

[Strong Badam]

He can't grab you after late nair unless you suck at executing the shine.
He can shine you. Try shine OoS or grab after the shine, or wait for him to aerial your shield afterward. It's a mixup, you can't get out of it 100% of the time with the same option.

shine has +2 for hitlag and 8 damage which is about 6 frames of shiedstun and is thus +8 on shield. you cannot grab when you are -8. sorry. 5 frames jumpsquat, 2 frames until you can JC it, shine comes out when you are 0, -7 from doing a grab.

Your best option is to shield DI away until you can't be hit by the shine then grab.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Falco can't guaranteed Nair -> grab you, what is this Smash64?

If he's Nair grabbing you shine out of shield after the Nair
If he's Nair->shine you usually have time to shine OoS after the shine until he starts double shining but I assume your friend isn't good enough yet to do that consistently

no, but doing things like nair, double shine grab can really **** your opponent up.

 

[Wenbobular]

no, but doing things like nair, double shine grab can really **** your opponent up.

I mean sure but I was operating under the assumption that his opponent couldn't doubleshine haha

 

[Sinji]

for some reason i assumed sinji meant a shinegrab not a normal grab. could be wrong tho

Nah. I meant ether shine or grab.

 

[PK Webb]

vs ganon what do u do against aerial jab. even after they jab it feels like they can move immediately afterward

 

[omgwtfToph]

They can't. Either wait out the jab, or catch the Ganon in the air before the aerial comes out.

 

[PK Webb]

They can't. Either wait out the jab, or catch the Ganon in the air before the aerial comes out.

so i shud play more aggro in the mu?

 

[omgwtfToph]

I don't think you need to force yourself to play more aggressively, but you don't want to play too defensively against Ganon because you don't want to trade hits with that guy.

Like, you can play as defensively as you like, but once you have an opening you should kill that dude.

Besides, you don't have to rush him down. Like I said, just wait out the jab. It's not always a matter of attacking MORE, it's just a matter of timing your attack better.

 

[JPOBS]

Like Toph said, wait for the jab, punish.

If he goes in the air, you can get quick nairs/bairs to stuff his moves if you are in the correct positioning, because they all have slow startup. never go above ganon, his upair is great.
And for gods sake, don't rush into his retreating fairs.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think ganon is a great character to rush down. He has good spacing tools so if you allow him to take space against you something went wrong. He generally only gets 1 shot to shut down your rush down and then you can stay on him for a while. If you can force him to shield, he can't do much more than roll or grab. His aerials are fairly safe on shield and its hard to punish them on landing, so generally I like to bait out his ground moves and punish those with a dair (so he can't CC, plus its a pretty fast & meaty hitbox)


edit- btw, ganon's rising uair is quite fast and can hit surprisingly low. Ganon does have some fast aerials, don't forget to respect them or you will eat some serious percent.

 

[Sinji]

I think i got the ledge hop strategy down pat against falco.

On yoshis story: If falco crouch don't attack. He can cc fsmash. Instead waveland on the middle level platform and falling uair. If you drill after the waveland, falco can CC shine.

 

[omgwtfToph]

what the ****? "CC fsmash" is not a reason to not attack LOOOL

also, you got it mixed up. you can't CC shine drills but you CAN CC shine uairs if you're at a low enough %

god sometimes i'm inclined to think jamaican melee is a different game

 

[Palpi]

I just think sinji is awful.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no need for name calling, yo