Fortress | Sveet
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I agree. Its not quite that difficult to ledge dash consistently, i can confidently do it in matches without risking death more than ledge dashing with marth or sheik (1/20 times i'd say)
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it, I love using it personally - but in a tournament match I will definitely consider all my other options first. If I feel like ledge-dash is mandatory for success then I will attempt it, in that way, if I die I know I would likely have died using any other means so I don't feel so bad.
On that note, I haven't been to a tournament since . . . that Mass Madess I posted about. life/time johns.
On that note, I haven't been to a tournament since . . . that Mass Madess I posted about. life/time johns.
Fortress | Sveet
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I think of ledge dash first since it is the safest and puts the most pressure back on the opponent.
Fortress | Sveet
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this guy knows whats upsome smart guy said:
ok randoms are dumb cause
no one is saying its hard to master ok
why is anyone even acting like this is some point of contention
but its risky
so start winning with it and stop posting loll god dam
then maybe some1 can listen to u but until then zz
no one is saying its hard to master ok
why is anyone even acting like this is some point of contention
but its risky
so start winning with it and stop posting loll god dam
then maybe some1 can listen to u but until then zz
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Err ... aren't you contradicting yourself by saying it's not hard to master but it's risky <_<
Where's the risk if you've mastered it
Where's the risk if you've mastered it
this is a paradox similar to the one presented in the terminator series. If the father of john conner . . .is sent back in time by john conner. . . to save john conner's mother. . .at which point the two have sex and make john conner. . . how was john conner conceived in the root of this reality???!?!?
Lovage
Smash Hero
it's not that it's that hard, it's just that the better you are it, the higher chance you have at killing yourself - if that makes sense lol.
the better you do it (the more frames of invincibility you retain after the waveland is over,) the more chance you had of killing yourself since you were really really close to the ground when you wavelanded.
btw i'm not in any way discouraging people from utilizing this sick technique, i'm just saying i don't use it as much as the canadians do cuz i don't want to risk killing myself with something that is riskier the better you are at it LOL
that and i feel there's enough other good options that i'm good at that are safe (FOR ME)
the better you do it (the more frames of invincibility you retain after the waveland is over,) the more chance you had of killing yourself since you were really really close to the ground when you wavelanded.
btw i'm not in any way discouraging people from utilizing this sick technique, i'm just saying i don't use it as much as the canadians do cuz i don't want to risk killing myself with something that is riskier the better you are at it LOL
that and i feel there's enough other good options that i'm good at that are safe (FOR ME)
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
You're going to tech? Sweet we can play. And yeah I'm going to G6 to win :D, but I'm going up from savannah... we don't go anywhere near ATL, really =/
Ask around the ATL people?
Ask around the ATL people?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
true story: i was doing this for a while and then shane and otto got mad at me and yelled at me to stop cuz i was wasting frames
LOL
>_>
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Honestly I'm not sure if I can do the shine waveland anymore now that I've practiced without it so much
Fortress | Sveet
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I agree with SW and eggz on this one. Waste of frames.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
not only is it a waste of invincibility....it signifies an action.
its much easier to react to fox shining and wave landing up than just wave landing up. ppl get more predictable when they shine first.
I still shine first often, but not every time. occasionally I shine turn around bair from the ledge cuz it looks cool.
hitstop doesn't exist! its not a real term toph.
its much easier to react to fox shining and wave landing up than just wave landing up. ppl get more predictable when they shine first.
I still shine first often, but not every time. occasionally I shine turn around bair from the ledge cuz it looks cool.
hitstop doesn't exist! its not a real term toph.
not only is it a waste of invincibility....it signifies an action.
its much easier to react to fox shining and wave landing up than just wave landing up. ppl get more predictable when they shine first.
I still shine first often, but not every time. occasionally I shine turn around bair from the ledge cuz it looks cool.
hitstop doesn't exist! its not a real term toph.
shine > up b. now what bro?
shine cost one or two frames in TAS.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
are u really going to be the first and only person on my ignore list?
. . . . I hope so?
I don't see why a simple disagreement over whether the shine is telegraphic or not would merit such action but. . . more power to you, I guess. Besides, ignoring me is now the cool thing. On the bright side, that means Kage will never ignore me :D
If I am counting frames correctly. . .
1. release edge (with down, naturally), assuming this is a 1 frame action..
2. press b or, skip to frame four command.
3. shine comes out, canceling downward momentum (<--this is the important part)
4. Perfect wavedash onto the stage.
TAh-DAh!! TAS theory.
I don't see why a simple disagreement over whether the shine is telegraphic or not would merit such action but. . . more power to you, I guess. Besides, ignoring me is now the cool thing. On the bright side, that means Kage will never ignore me :D
If I am counting frames correctly. . .
1. release edge (with down, naturally), assuming this is a 1 frame action..
2. press b or, skip to frame four command.
3. shine comes out, canceling downward momentum (<--this is the important part)
4. Perfect wavedash onto the stage.
TAh-DAh!! TAS theory.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
doesn't change the fact that it still is a waste of frames. whats wrong with u? how can we talk about maximum efficiency, just to have u bring up TAS scenario in which its less efficient. if u could ledge dash with TAS precision why would u shine first in the first place?
also it still tells the defender u are about to do something. once u shine u pretty much have to grab edge again or come on stage. im not saying u can't trick people using shine in combination with other things....only that if u ALWAYS shine b4 u ledge dash, the opponent can prepare more easily, and u have less invincibility.
also it still tells the defender u are about to do something. once u shine u pretty much have to grab edge again or come on stage. im not saying u can't trick people using shine in combination with other things....only that if u ALWAYS shine b4 u ledge dash, the opponent can prepare more easily, and u have less invincibility.
we are, unfortunately, not TAS'ing our melee play. In regard to max efficiency vs. max consistency, I would favor the latter. How to determine which approach is more appropriate is up to you. If, either way, you have enough invincibility to safely take the stage then it is really just a matter of preference.doesn't change the fact that it still is a waste of frames.
whats wrong with u? how can we talk about maximum efficiency, just to have u bring up TAS scenario in which its less efficient. if u could ledge dash with TAS precision why would u shine first in the first place?
also it still tells the defender u are about to do something. once u shine u pretty much have to grab edge again or come on stage. im not saying u can't trick people using shine in combination with other things....only that if u ALWAYS shine b4 u ledge dash, the opponent can prepare more easily, and u have less invincibility.
grabbing the edge tells the defender that you are going to try to reclaim the main stage some how. If you always do anything it becomes obvious to the smarter player, so that point is rather . . . wait, better not disagree, I might get ignored
The level of manual precision required dictates the more frame-efficient style as the necessary one but under the assumption that you are functioning within a reasonable margin of error (2~3 frames) It shouldn't matter either way .. . .
invincible waveland into a roll gives you WAY more invincibility frames than wavelanding into a nair anyway.
I would imagine that, as stated above, the primary use in shining before the waveland is to stall your downward momentum because a lot of the lost frames come from using the stick to release the edge and then maneuvering to the wavedash angle.
If you press away to release the edge I suppose that is another way to approach it. Maybe even double jumping backwards off the edgeif that would affect his hitbox in a way that positively effects your ability to waveland)
Winston
Smash Master
You don't have to ledgedash every time or even most of the time to get value out of it though. Ledgedashing some of the time will force your opponent to respect your ledge options a bit more - Marth cant simply crouch at dtilt spacing/dd and beat everything you can do, for example. Then you can mix in the other options that are easier to execute, and they'll have a higher success rate. So the risk isn't 1/10 or 1/20 or whatever, it's that times the percent of the time you actually use it; and in return you gain some "percentage" every time you are forced onto the edge. If your opponent refuses to respect that option still and doesn't give you extra space then just take the free hits/positional advantage reversal and be on your way.
Another argument someone gave against it is "some days you'll be really consistent, but some days you won't be warmed up enough and you'll mess up." Well can't you kind of gauge that while playing friendlies and just don't use it if you think you'll mess up?
Some days you will be able to hit it amazingly consistently, and then you can really abuse it. On those days you can purposely wavedash oos/lightshield slide onto the edge instead of rolling when cornered, and your ledgedash will give you much, much better odds of getting out of that situation without getting punished. Turning one of the most traditionally disadvantaged situations (trapped by the edge while shielding) into something near parity is pretty amazing, imo.
The main reason people seem particular averse to using this is that the risk is guaranteed death. But this doesn't seem to make sense to me - a lot of the time ledgehop drill/ledge illusion/whatever is pretty much death if they call it. Now, I understand that these other options basically shift the situation to whether you can out-rps your opponent rather than whether you can execute a technical action, but is your opponent really not going to guess right 1/10 times? All the other options definitely involve significant risks.
Another argument someone gave against it is "some days you'll be really consistent, but some days you won't be warmed up enough and you'll mess up." Well can't you kind of gauge that while playing friendlies and just don't use it if you think you'll mess up?
Some days you will be able to hit it amazingly consistently, and then you can really abuse it. On those days you can purposely wavedash oos/lightshield slide onto the edge instead of rolling when cornered, and your ledgedash will give you much, much better odds of getting out of that situation without getting punished. Turning one of the most traditionally disadvantaged situations (trapped by the edge while shielding) into something near parity is pretty amazing, imo.
The main reason people seem particular averse to using this is that the risk is guaranteed death. But this doesn't seem to make sense to me - a lot of the time ledgehop drill/ledge illusion/whatever is pretty much death if they call it. Now, I understand that these other options basically shift the situation to whether you can out-rps your opponent rather than whether you can execute a technical action, but is your opponent really not going to guess right 1/10 times? All the other options definitely involve significant risks.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
since we aren't at TAS efficiency its way more important to save frames whenever humanly possible. if u can wave dash u can ledge dash.
ppl aren't worried about frame loss, they are worried about stock loss. so basically they don't want to practice. thats all there really is to it.
its more efficient with no shine, well within the realm of consistency. why would u settle for less? and 2-3 frames can make a difference for sure.
wtf brookman-ppl can hit down with one thumb and jump with another...x/y. I suggest that for ledge dashing as opposed to jumping with up.
ppl aren't worried about frame loss, they are worried about stock loss. so basically they don't want to practice. thats all there really is to it.
its more efficient with no shine, well within the realm of consistency. why would u settle for less? and 2-3 frames can make a difference for sure.
wtf brookman-ppl can hit down with one thumb and jump with another...x/y. I suggest that for ledge dashing as opposed to jumping with up.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Yeah, Fox's ledgedash syncs really well with press down -> instantly input wavedash motion
Palpi
Smash Hero
I would think doing a shine-> up-b stall then mixing in a shine-> ledgedash isnt too bad, since no one could react that fast anyway. I understand your argument Kaostar, but honestly, I don't think it matter that much. If you can't do it consistantly with the shine, it is still a viable option when you shine, just not AS good.
unknown522
Some guy
that's actually probably the least likely way I SD.
Having a bad controller makes me suicide more than anything else.
After this weekend, I switched to my spare one. I love the control stick on it, but the L button sucks. I need to get some lube to put on it.
leffen
Smash Champion
cba reading ppls wall of texts so im just gonna drop this here:
Dont do shine-> up b, plx. If you just Up B (without jumping, falco needs to jump tho) you will still have your dj left if you get hit during the charge.
2012 metagame will be stalling with fox
.
Dont do shine-> up b, plx. If you just Up B (without jumping, falco needs to jump tho) you will still have your dj left if you get hit during the charge.
2012 metagame will be stalling with fox
.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
and u are less likely to get hit off. ten8 frames of your invincibility are on the edge and u can't do any actions.
the less u do the better off u are. don't waste em with comfort shines.
I only recommend shine if they are right at the edge and it will hit them....wave shine grab/jab reset.
the less u do the better off u are. don't waste em with comfort shines.
I only recommend shine if they are right at the edge and it will hit them....wave shine grab/jab reset.
unknown522
Some guy
I never do that firefox stall.
I wonder why?
Also, Kaostar: Every character can let go of the ledge on frame 8, except Link. For Link it's frame 5 (or 4. I forget)
I wonder why?
Also, Kaostar: Every character can let go of the ledge on frame 8, except Link. For Link it's frame 5 (or 4. I forget)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Because you don't really need it. lol.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
aight good ****. frame 8 then.
imo firefox stalling is crazy overused. its a good time waster and invincibility refresh while edge guarding. and shine while invincible is ****.
but when recovering u might as well just ledge hop up after u grab the edge...unless u are trying to bait an action to punish. I think people have lost sight of its purpose and do it just because. just my opinion this time tho.
imo firefox stalling is crazy overused. its a good time waster and invincibility refresh while edge guarding. and shine while invincible is ****.
but when recovering u might as well just ledge hop up after u grab the edge...unless u are trying to bait an action to punish. I think people have lost sight of its purpose and do it just because. just my opinion this time tho.
since we aren't at TAS efficiency its way more important to save frames whenever humanly possible. if u can wave dash u can ledge dash.
ppl aren't worried about frame loss, they are worried about stock loss. so basically they don't want to practice. thats all there really is to it.
its more efficient with no shine, well within the realm of consistency. why would u settle for less? and 2-3 frames can make a difference for sure.
wtf brookman-ppl can hit down with one thumb and jump with another...x/y. I suggest that for ledge dashing as opposed to jumping with up.
1/4th of this is agreeing with me, another 1/2 is restating what I said, and the last 1/4th is arguing against things I never actually said.
fixed. ^_^
Somebody needs a banana :<
If you really want to be good at this game you will. Examples: m2k, PP, Armada, alternatively, you can play casually and talk **** on SWF with other people who play while you're doing some **** work
If you really want to be good at this game you will. Examples: m2k, PP, Armada, alternatively, you can play casually and talk **** on SWF with other people who play while you're doing some **** work
some people need to get off smashboards and play melee lolllllllll
how long do u expect to theorize if u cant think for yourself
then u are always gonna suk, and going to hit a skill ceiling, because all u do is process with other people about random stupid ****, and even worse argue with people over things u dont understand and that are all situational loll
whatever imma play lol
how long do u expect to theorize if u cant think for yourself
then u are always gonna suk, and going to hit a skill ceiling, because all u do is process with other people about random stupid ****, and even worse argue with people over things u dont understand and that are all situational loll
whatever imma play lol
unknown522
Some guy
pretty much, yeah.
I want to one day be able to stall through the lava on brinstar =p.
Also, can anyone guess what character is in my avatar?
unknown522
Some guy
hahaha =p.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
That would be Claus. You said to me I could've played better.. of course I could've off if I wasn't high maybe? lol
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Luke Skywalker? <_<