Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[KirbyKaze]

le spacing noob

 

[PK Webb]

allso upsmash,nair,bair,shine oos

 

[Divinokage]

Le poing (The punch), la main (Backfist), le downair!! lol.

 

[Sangoku]

Thanks all for the input!

Wenbobular what is ledgedashing? Also will 64 spacing/reading/whatever transfer to melee? At least to some extent or not at all?

Oh and since you're speaking in french, how would you say spacing in french? Placement? ça sonne pas bien...

 

[JPOBS]

edit:nvvm..

 

[Divinokage]

Thanks all for the input!

Wenbobular what is ledgedashing? Also will 64 spacing/reading/whatever transfer to melee? At least to some extent or not at all?

Oh and since you're speaking in french, how would you say spacing in french? Placement? ça sonne pas bien...

Espace = either the space or spacing in french.

 

[buddy]

does anyone have the frame data for fox's throws?
specifically, his up throw, and after how many frames can i start moving, jumping, etc.
i've heard you can start moving as soon as his arms are down, but specific frame data would help, and i haven't been able to find throw data on any of the frame data threads i've seen.

 

[Wenbobular]

I wasn't speaking French, I just like saying le sometimes <_<
SSB kinda helps with dashdancing, but ... everyone in SSB is like super floaty (also grabs are ******** and you can literally cover every tech option in 64 by just grabbing -_-)

I mean if anything, going from competitive 64 to competitive Melee the only help you really get is that you already have the mindset needed for competitive play (which is pretty important actually) ... tech skill doesn't really transfer though because Melee has much more diverse tech skill and is a lot faster. Some of the spacing principals still apply though (Bairs are maybe even more broken, Up attacks > Down attacks, stuff like that)

This is speaking from someone who played SSB64 online for a couple years before getting into competitive Melee

Ledgedashing is basically an immediate waveland off the ledge ... done properly you can get a good amount of invincibility with Fox's ledgedash ... ledgedash Nair is quite safe from my experience assuming you're fast executing both the ledgedash and the Nair immediately afterward

 

[Sangoku]

Yeah I knew you were playing 64 that's why I asked =P. Too bad it won't really transfer since there is no (working) online melee =/.

Oh so you still have your invicibility frames when you waveland onstage from the ledge?

Et Divinokage: "he has good spacing" donnerait "il a un bon espace?" c'est pas terrible lol. En plus spacing peut-être utilisé en verbe, alors qu'en français je vois pas trop comment =/.

Well never mind I guess. In french I should just say spacing with a french accent =D

 

[Brookman]

referring to edge invincibility, I think that is one key difference between melee and 64. In case you didn't know, san, edge hogging is one of the most basic aspects about melee.

Basic mechanics to master are fast falling, dashing, wavedashing, short hopping, l cancel (50% lag in melee as opposed to 64's landing lag. ). Spacing concepts are similar, blocking attacks is not as bad in melee as in 64 and drills are not quite as good.

practicing on your own? Just watch tech skill vids I guess, practice in btt and hrc, those are good ways to quantify your progress.

 

[Wenbobular]

You're invincible for a certain duration of time after you grab the ledge regardless of what you do afterward (different from both 64 and Brawl I believe where you lose it the instant you let go)

It's nice because trapping people by the ledge is pretty powerful as it is
But it also allows some characters to basically be free to run to the ledge -> invincible ledgedash whenever they feel pressured and not be punished for it
Fortunately consistently ledgedashing with enough invincibility to be useful is hard to do and therefore no one that I've seen has gotten to the point where they can ledgedash through anything and reset to neutral from any position, rendering most forms of stage positional pressure useless if the goal is to make you scared of getting backed into the ledge

 

[FoxLisk]

You're invincible for a certain duration of time after you grab the ledge regardless of what you do afterward (different from both 64 and Brawl I believe where you lose it the instant you let go)

It's nice because trapping people by the ledge is pretty powerful as it is
But it also allows some characters to basically be free to run to the ledge -> invincible ledgedash whenever they feel pressured and not be punished for it
Fortunately consistently ledgedashing with enough invincibility to be useful is hard to do and therefore no one that I've seen has gotten to the point where they can ledgedash through anything and reset to neutral from any position, rendering most forms of stage positional pressure useless if the goal is to make you scared of getting backed into the ledge

i thought jumping frmo ledge (like pressing jump, not ledgehopping) dropped your invuln frames. i could be wrong but it's always felt that way to me... actually im probably wrong. idk.

and yeah no one has learned perfect ledgedashing consistently yet but ilke, it's strictly timing and most of the community has learned other strictly-timing things consistently (e.g. wavedashing, waveshining, throw -> immediately starting an action, etc) so i think it'll happen soon enough.

 

[Brookman]

ledge dashing is a good way to SD and drop a match/set.

 

[L__]

so are a lot of other things unfortunately

so anyways

say a marth has you pinned in a corner on say... fd

I was gonna ask for advice but I realized I suppose it differs for each marth

 

[JPOBS]

^ they are trying to bait a defensive response like a spot dodge or roll. so instead i just start throwing out attacks.
sometimes.

but the thing i like to do most is take the ledge and work with invincibility.

 

[L__]

I always feel so scared because it feels like all the Marth players in my region can formulate a counter-strategy on reaction

idk

I'll experiment this weekend, I plan on focusing heavily on playing to learn and I'll try to be cool and make a neat post about it

then I can maybe be one of the cool kids in the fox thread

 

[Brookman]

jump (dash + sh) at them and up b.

 

[Wenbobular]

so are a lot of other things unfortunately

so anyways

say a marth has you pinned in a corner on say... fd

I was gonna ask for advice but I realized I suppose it differs for each marth

I would argue it doesn't differ at all
Wavedash OoS back onto the ledge, ledgedash through him with invincibility and pressure him right back
Unless they're like halfway into the stage but then you can just waveland right on the ledge

@ Brookman - it's only hazardous because people refuse to practice doing it to the point where you can pull it out at any time
If you can't ledgedash people don't have to respect your best option off the ledge...leaving you with ledgehop ... Nair? Dair? Jeez, that's scary ... <_<
Ledgehop illusion also sucks IMO but people aren't good enough at punishing that yet

 

[JPOBS]

I always feel so scared because it feels like all the Marth players in my region can formulate a counter-strategy on reaction

nothing's perfect

Ledgehop illusion also sucks IMO but people aren't good enough at punishing that yet

ledgehop illustion is better against certain chars than others.

 

[Wenbobular]

Sure, but it's still not a good option in my opinion ... every character is capable of sticking a hitbox in front of it and it doesn't have invincibility, whereas a well executed ledgedash is very difficult to punish even if you call it

 

[L__]

well what I was getting at was that different Marths have different reaction times and respond to how I do certain things differently so I figured I'd experiment rather than getting advice against a Marth we both haven't played

I hope what I'm saying is clear, I'm sleepy atm. Thanks for the advice Wenbo, I'll keep that in mind next time I get trapped in a corner vs. Marth.

Also to anyone else out there, do you actually enjoy the Fox/Marth match up on FD as long as you don't mess up and end up above Marth? I hope I'm not alone with enjoying uthrow uairs and combos without platforms interfering.

@JPOBS: yeah you're right I should try to remember that people aren't perfect beings

I'll definitely enjoy experimenting this weekend

 

[Wenbobular]

I'm still waiting for the day when even the mediocre Fox knows the brokenness of shortening the illusion (not spammed enough by the few Foxes who have shown they will use it), angle down Firefox (most Foxes already know), and invincible ledgedash Nair (nobody if Lovage can win a tournament while spamming ledgehop drill (not knocking on the rest of Lovage's game but I think ledgehop drill is only slightly better than ledgehop lasers <_<))

 

[Brookman]

ledgedash is actually. . . only really broken in TAS. Sorry, wenbo. It's definitely not outside of human control but if you were to review tournament footage from the last ~2 years. You will see players like m2k, axe, hax (primary users i can think of) losing matches to it. Either by being predictable or simply making an error that costs them (air dodge, unintended get up/jump off the edge).


You can argue for or against it and it is up to you to decide whether or not you are consistant enough to use it in a tournament situation where winning a match is your primary objective as opposed to "abusing" a "broken" game mechanic.

 

[joeplicate]

ledgehop drill is amazing

idk what ur talking about
it's only bad when the other person is far away



as far as beginning fox goes, for sangoku
my advice is: there's no "one thing" you need to master to be good (and if it is, i don't rly think it's ledge wavedashing). it's more like a composite of things that will get you familiar with fox's spacing, his movement and maneuverability, that i think's important.

i'd recommend getting familiar with the length of his dash dance. note the amount of momentum that dashing one way will get you, how far you can go with a short hop nair, how far wavedashes can take you (or how short). how fast fox's walk is, how long it takes you to stop, etc.

the different amount of speed/momentum on fox's moves basically constitutes the building blocks of his approach, defense, and spacing game, so this is what i'd concentrate on at first. which moves will get you to the space you want to be in?

the second thing i'd recommend is working with his shield--nair, bair, and dair out of shield are pretty essential with fox. they're really effective at both low level and high level play, because they cover lots of options and are great counterattacks (for low level) and they're super safe and insanely fast, and relatively unpunishable (at higher levels, playing the shield pressure game). shine out of shield comes next =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ledgedash is good. It's annoying as hell when someone is good at it, because it allows them to do silly spacing games when they return from the edge. Mini or stationary ledgedash is also really underrated as a means to return, and really easy to do (much easier than full length ones, and still gets you actionable invincibility!).

Nurgle.

I'm craving peanut butter right now because Unknown just told me a funny story about peanut butter.

 

[unknown522]

videos from our tourney are up:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=303229

 

[Wenbobular]

Ok maybe I emphasize it a liiiittle too much

But it still disturbs me that there are very few top Foxes that even attempt to utilize it when it is probably your best all around option for returning to the ledge

Just you wait, I'll show you all the power of good ledgedashing someday when I don't suck (i.e. never ... sigh)

 

[Brookman]

'top' fox players have probably come to a similar conclusion that it is risky and would rather opt for a more reliable way to get back on stage . . . like the every popular forward b, stand up to roll, edge hop down air. . etc etc.

;]

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can tolerate nonsense up to a point but saying some of those options are more reliable than ledgedash is kind of lulzy to me.

 

[Lovage]

ledge dashings pretty good but i dont wanna risk dying like you canadians do LOL

when i do it i shine first to slow myself down a bit

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shining first is fine...

 

[Brookman]

i dont wanna risk dyingt

I believe this is what some refer to as 'case in point'.


Unless you are 90% or higher in your proficiency, I would relegate the ledge dash to the 'bad habit' bin because, while you may be training hard to master the trick you will find yourself attempting to use it at awkward/inappropriate times and/or dying while attempting it in a serious match because it is hardwired into your play style from training it so much.


I think it's an amazing trick. For sure. I think it's usefulness is often over-stated. Unless it becomes the only viable edge-to-stage maneuver, I'd rather just get back on the stage and start up the nair plane asap ;]

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm special then because I've got that magic consistency ^_^

**** =D

 

[unknown522]

ledge dashings pretty good but i dont wanna risk dying like you canadians do LOL

when i do it i shine first to slow myself down a bit

hahaha.

Gotta work on that frame perfection.

 

[Brookman]

I'm special then because I've got that magic consistency ^_^

**** =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

whoa the new ignore list *****

 

[GOD!]

the only fox i have ever seen do that consistently is lucky

and the later the set goes, the less he does that
nerves im guessing make movements less precise

so risky, so little reward
w/e whats the point in saying something is good if no one even does it lol

and if u say kk does it ok whats the difference

its like saying lovage does something in his tech skill video and has 0 impact on high level play lollll

 

[Druggedfox]

Ledgedashing is *not* hard enough that people shouldn't be considering trying it. Honestly, the more you do it, the more consistent you'll get with it; maybe you won't be doing it in tournament at first, but not incorporating it is very limiting. At high level play, one of the hardest situations is often getting from the ledge back to center stage. Against any good opponent, this can definitely be hell... being able to ledgedash almost effectively nullifies that problem (EVEN if they call it... you're invincible, you can do whatever you want...).

Telling people not to ledgedash is only a step below telling people not to shield pressure. I mean, god forbid they mess up, they might lose a stock! Yes, its true. So what? By maining fox, you've already decided to use the character with perhaps the least overall consistency; by doing such a thing in a competitive environment (where consistency is key, obviously), you're already committing yourself to trying to be consistent at things that are easy to mess up, particularly in the heat of a match. If we apply that logic to other tactics... I wouldn't even see why you're maining fox in the first place with such a concern about consistency. You might as well have mained peach or somebody else that requires minimal tech skill comparatively...

 

[GOD!]

noobfox

guess where im going to school next semester???
tech yeah

also are u going to g6? and does your car have room

also @ actual post:

ok ok, but look:

there are a lot of other ways to get on stage that are very safe. it is a good option ok, but if u are having on off day with your tech skill, u really want to not rely on something when every other tool in your kit can still help u get close to the same result

ive had days where my ledgedash is 95% consistent. but if you arent on one of those days.. no one is saying its technically difficult to do more than other fox stuff but the risk reward is something ridiculous

ok maybe you are right BUT until I actually see it in the meta or can wake up every day and do it (and other people obviously cant unless you WOULD probably be seeing it) I see no reason to but emphasis on it. you are probably right but it seems too far ahead of meta to actually encourage people to do something not in it. and that sounds circular but ok, foxes have known about it forever and its still not here. there must be a good reason, and thats probably cause fox players are inconsistent. but should inconsistency cause u to get hit (and maybe lose a stock, as in shield pressure mistakes) or autolose a stock...

 

[JPOBS]

I think some of you are really over estimating the difficulty of the ledgedash.

I think the belief that the ledgedash can't be mastered needs to be done away with. Theres no reason why everyone can't ledgedash with +90% consistency. If people can waveshine/thunders/etc with near perfect consistency, theres no logical reason why ledgedash can't just be mastered as well. There is nothing intrinsically more difficult about the technique, it just has a higher penalty (which will become a moot point once you can do it well enough).