Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[chillindude829]

raynex im watching you vs bam, i really like a lot of the stuff you do vs falco and im stealing it

i think you should utilize shine turnaround bair for edgeguards more, seemed like there were a ton of situations where you tried to edgeguard from on the stage when shine turnaround bair wouldve been a free kill i believe

for some reason i feel more confident edgeguarding fox/falco when im facing away from the edge. bair, utilt, dsmash all work excellent while facing away

just a thought since it seemed like every edgeguard situation, you were facing the edge

edit: just to add to this, i notice you really like run off, double jump back on w/ nair. is there any advantage to this over run off shine turnaround bair? maybe its faster, on the last stock in the fox ditto vs bam you hit a quick side+B attempt with nair that maybe shine turnaround bair wouldve been too slow for

edit2: for the record, the single most underused good tactic vs falco is full jump falling up air, EVERY falco player ive played gets hit by this regularly including pp zhu etc. its so good, interrupts their pressure game and sets up a free combo, and ive been using it for years yet no falco seems to catch on... maybe its because no other fox does it lol. but even falcos that recognize im spamming it have trouble coming up with a good counter, their best bet is either a well-timed shine or utilt, or maybe crouch cancelling the uair at low enough %

 

[omgwtfToph]

nair is a little quicker, and it stays out longer. So it hits not just on the way up, but also on the way down (pretty much, it lasts from the time you doublejump until you just about touch the ground). But the advantage with shine to turnaround bair is that you can wait in the shine a little bit if they try to stall before the illusion or something.

I think jman does the nair thing a lot.

 

[Brookman]

...

You should make another thread for this type of thing, definitely way too much traffic in here and their value will be lost that way.

 

[chillindude829]

what frames do bair/nair come out on

 

[Brookman]

both come out on 6 iirc/checks frame thread/wonders why frame thread is not sticky status yet.

edit: Total: 49
Hit: 4-31
IASA: 42
Auto cancel: <3 37>
Landlag: 15
Lcanceled: 7

Total: 39
Hit: 4-19
IASA: 38
Auto cancel: <3 24>
Landlag: 20
Lcanceled: 10

both are 4. WOW! that's a whole two frames faster then I thought. It's like, after all these years, my life is a lie. . . .


*reality shattering*

 

[Divinokage]

Goddamn.. I wish I had so many critics that you can view every perspective possible at your own level. =(

 

[omgwtfToph]

what frames do bair/nair come out on

I'm pretty sure they both come out on frame 4 but if you wanna bair, you have to spend a little time turning around in the shine for the bair. But I don't think this is the main reason nair is better in some situations. I dunno, a lot of the time they're interchangeable anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If my fox could run backwards, i would never nair.

 

[Divinokage]

If my fox could run backwards, i would never nair.

Rofl that's pretty ridiculous.

 

[KAOSTAR]

rofl, yea its def frame 4. I remember being sad that fox can jump and nair as fast as m2 can jab.

life is so unfair Q_Q

anyway, ive come to find their use to be positional. if they are above i then bair is better. head on or below I like nair...imo

again imo, nair is much more suited to approach and usually better for combos and bair to defend aka the cobra kick which has more kb to kill or create/hold space.

when it comes to comboing, sh light nair ***** and falling soft, rising fj reverse (soft) bair gets my **** hard...imo

 

[unknown522]

That would be Claus. You said to me I could've played better.. of course I could've off if I wasn't high maybe? lol

yes to both.

unknown i watched the last 3 matches in your set with bam and i had a few thoughts i wanted to post before i go to sleep

you tried to approach with nair approximately 500 thousand times and they pretty much all sucked lol. this was the #1 reason why you lost. nair against falco at low percents is like....****ty, and even at high percents, the way you were using it is as if you were playing for trades, which ****ed you up hella bad.

n-air is the only thing that hits in front of fox in the air. d-air has no range and/or will just get punished if he happens to jump, or if he decides to beat the move. N-air is not bad if I hit him out of the air with it. When he's shooting lasers under platforms, I can't approach from the ground and fox's air options aren't that great, unless several conditions are met.

but more importantly, you didn't mix up your approach for ****, and bam caught on pretty obviously in the last 2 games. just look at the first 3 stocks on stadium and you'll see what i mean. you had a huge LACK of full hop bairs (when u think hes gonna nair/dair in,) short hop drills, and kooky uairs.

This is true. Aside from the catching on part.

it really just looked like you didn't have ur head in the game as much.

yes. It was 5am. I had no sleep the night before and 3 hours of sleep the night before that.

you were super stoked cuz you ***** him on fd

this is false. I was nonchalant the whole time.

but when he adapted to your air patterns (full nairing from the platform like every time) and approaches, it looked like you got frustrated in your tech skill mistakes (fsmashing by accident, dash attacking at 0% etc) instead of getting frustrated at the fact that he's reading you like a **** book.

bam never adapted. I just messed up all day.

that said, bams lookin pretty fresh but u can **** him next time

I will.

Thanks for the advice.






oh yeah, got surgery tomorrow, so I'm gonna be in the hospital for 2 days. No weekend for me

 

[Divinokage]

Ryan, you messing up as nothing to do with Bam adapting. If you didn't mess up, then things would of happened completely differently whether it would of been Bam's advantage or yours cannot be predicted anymore since it's the past. And Bam was probably as tired as you, no johns. =)

 

[Silent Wolf]

n-air is the only thing that hits in front of fox in the air. d-air has no range and/or will just get punished if he happens to jump, or if he decides to beat the move. N-air is not bad if I hit him out of the air with it. When he's shooting lasers under platforms, I can't approach from the ground and fox's air options aren't that great, unless several conditions are met.

it is but its still risky, esp if overused. falcos sh auto cancelled bair ***** fox nair too. imo you should play very defensive vs falco and do your best to make him come to you, theres always a way. you can shine his lasers if you have to or laser camp back. imo choose a small stage like yoshis fod or bf and play the platforms right. those stages are small enough to be able to come in for some good zoning set ups/punishes. dont only play the platforms tho, you have to switch it up, even if youre not planning on attacking from a certain spot, otherwise youll be too predictable. aight im gettin kinda side tracked, not trying to explain my whole take on the match up lol. hope that does some good tho

 

[unknown522]

Ryan, you messing up as nothing to do with Bam adapting. If you didn't mess up, then things would of happened completely differently whether it would of been Bam's advantage or yours cannot be predicted anymore since it's the past. And Bam was probably as tired as you, no johns. =)

1. I'm pretty sure he got sleep in within those 2 days of the tourney.

2. How can it be adapting if I should get a punish, but I end up doing something completely different solely because I have a bad controller?

In the end I still lost, but understanding why I lost is important to me.

it is but its still risky, esp if overused. falcos sh auto cancelled bair ***** fox nair too. imo you should play very defensive vs falco and do your best to make him come to you, theres always a way. you can shine his lasers if you have to or laser camp back. imo choose a small stage like yoshis fod or bf and play the platforms right. those stages are small enough to be able to come in for some good zoning set ups/punishes. dont only play the platforms tho, you have to switch it up, even if youre not planning on attacking from a certain spot, otherwise youll be too predictable. aight im gettin kinda side tracked, not trying to explain my whole take on the match up lol. hope that does some good tho

yeah, I was thinking of taking him to BF instead of stadium, but I wanted to get rid of him hiding under platforms all day. I think I should've went with my first instinct. But truthfully, I think I would've still lost that day.

I would've approached less with n-air if he were to start punishing it, but the only reason I would get hit most of the time is because of me messing up, not because of my choices.

 

[Silent Wolf]

is bam going to genesis?

 

[Lovage]

watch the last match on stadium and look at how bam's air patterns changed

he was straight fulljumping over you and dairing like a tool cuz he knew you were gonna try to nair, where i come from that's DISRESPEK lol


not to mention the times he just read you sick obvious and punished
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=6m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=7m02s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=4m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=5m36s (full hop double jumps/lasers away twice in a row to dodge ur nair)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=5m50s (double jumps wayyy over you cuz he knew you were gonna try to nair, you react but it's too late)


the stuff he was doing to beat ur nair style was really risky (fulljumps every 2 seconds lol,) if you caught on and started baiting him and bairing him out of the air, i think you coulda turned the set around easy.

 

[unknown522]

gotta love how 4/5 of those were actually me just messing up.

me not dashing, moving too far forward, missing the l-cancel.

The last one was an accidental jump even.

And that is why I have stopped using that controller as I said before.

 

[Divinokage]

gotta love how 4/5 of those were actually me just messing up.

me not dashing, moving too far forward, missing the l-cancel.

The last one was an accidental jump even.

And that is why I have stopped using that controller as I said before.

Controller johns since 2005 lolll.

Edit: You have to realize, in order for someone to hit someone else.. someone must have failed.. those combos on FD are no johns for Bam. Don't give me a controller john when during some of the matches, you ***** him. Everyone will fail an input at some point, I fail inputs every once in a while.. it's not my controller, it's me vs a strong opponent. Pressure affects everyone in a subtle way or an obvious way.

 

[Brookman]

If my fox could run backwards, i would never nair.

I do believe we were just talking about using shield to cancel dash momentum in the capacity to pivot much more easily. . . So, given effective timing this is absolutely possible. . .

*hitbox image is slightly skewed by game mechanics (for anyone who doesn't know this yet)

 

[unknown522]

is bam going to genesis?

I don't think he is.

watch the last match on stadium and look at how bam's air patterns changed

he was straight fulljumping over you and dairing like a tool cuz he knew you were gonna try to nair, where i come from that's DISRESPEK lol


not to mention the times he just read you sick obvious and punished
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=6m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=7m02s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=4m10s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=5m36s (full hop double jumps/lasers away twice in a row to dodge ur nair)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWvQCznmziE#t=5m50s (double jumps wayyy over you cuz he knew you were gonna try to nair, you react but it's too late)


the stuff he was doing to beat ur nair style was really risky (fulljumps every 2 seconds lol,) if you caught on and started baiting him and bairing him out of the air, i think you coulda turned the set around easy.

Controller johns since 2005 lolll.

Edit: You have to realize, in order for someone to hit someone else.. someone must have failed.. those combos on FD are no johns for Bam. Don't give me a controller john when during some of the matches, you ***** him. Everyone will fail an input at some point, I fail inputs every once in a while.. it's not my controller, it's me vs a strong opponent. Pressure affects everyone in a subtle way or an obvious way.

You know what? I'm tired of arguing what happened. Fine. He read me and predicted me so well, and adapted to everything that I was doing. That's why I lost. He's so much better than me at this game.

Thanks for the tips.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

We love you, Ryan! :D :D :D <3

 

[Divinokage]

I don't think he is.



You know what? I'm tired of arguing what happened. Fine. He read me and predicted me so well, and adapted to everything that I was doing. That's why I lost. He's so much better than me at this game.

Thanks for the tips.

That's better, now we can start somewhere! lol.

 

[Brookman]

Kage obviously feels strongly about 'controller johns'. That was always the heart of this community, anyway.

Originally Posted by unknown522 View Post
He's so much better than me at this game.

I think this is the important part.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage obviously feels strongly about 'controller johns'. That was always the heart of this community, anyway.



I think this is the important part.

Dude when I started to john about how I was way too high and how I just wanted to have fun at the tournament, everyone was saying oh so the warrior is johning now? It's pretty BS lol. That's exactly how it feels.

 

[Lovage]

You know what? I'm tired of arguing what happened. Fine. He read me and predicted me so well, and adapted to everything that I was doing. That's why I lost. He's so much better than me at this game.

Thanks for the tips.

lol i think ur better than him, just made some gay mistakes is all

we love you ryan LOL

 

[Brookman]

Definitely a hard worker, don't take Kage's "negativity" to heart. Especially since you ruined him in pools (iirc?)

Not to rub that in your face tho, kage. ;D NO REALLY!! lol - In other words, I mean no offense and if you take it that way, it can't be helped by me.

 

[Zoler]

Watch his recent set vs Bam and Vwins on the MAN youtube channel.

How do i search for youtube channels?

nvm found it..

 

[joeplicate]

hahaha take that salt and put it on a fine dish of indian cuisine =P

unknown you're like the most logical fox ever, and everyone on this thread jocks ur nutz (for good reason!), but it's basically your fault for not sleeping, etc etc

there's no shame in taking a loss
this is something I need to learn, too, and historically, it's probably been one of the biggest things that's held me back

have you heard of the idea of "beginner's mind?" someone told me about it in relation to tennis, but i think it's true in anything competitive. basically, people who steadily improve are able to keep thinking about things as a beginner does, because as a beginner you have to constantly look for new things to change in your game, and new opportunities to learn. (again i'm not trying to call you out, this has been an enormous problem for me too lol)

even if you made mistakes--even if you made a LOT of mistakes--there are still things u can take away from those matches, and a lotta the advice we're fielding is still legit, imo. don't worry about it brah!

 

[Dark Hart]

I think he just has a different idea of why he lost and why mistakes were made than some of you may be suggesting.

I mean yea good **** to Bam for adapting and capitalizing, but still

 

[Brookman]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
Brookman, Lovage, Silent Wolf, Anand

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah I think realizing that you don't HAVE to approach Falco makes the matchup a lot more tolerable. (Well, you don't really ever HAVE to approach anyone and that's the beauty of all of it)

Unknown, I get that you're frustrated or whatever about people critiquing the matches where you lost but, did you see my post where I was asking you questions about the games where you won? >_> I really wanna get better at fighting Falco on FD and you really impressed me on match 2...

 

[FoxLisk]

protip to everyone: whenever someone gives you criticism you don't agree with (like actually reject not like something you just want a finer distinction on), just ignore it. it's just pride and it's always going to end with pointless arguments and disagreements. just dont talk about it at all, thank them for their help, and move on.

 

[unknown522]

We love you, Ryan! :D :D :D <3

That's better, now we can start somewhere! lol.

lol i think ur better than him, just made some gay mistakes is all

we love you ryan LOL

hahaha take that salt and put it on a fine dish of indian cuisine =P

unknown you're like the most logical fox ever, and everyone on this thread jocks ur nutz (for good reason!), but it's basically your fault for not sleeping, etc etc

there's no shame in taking a loss
this is something I need to learn, too, and historically, it's probably been one of the biggest things that's held me back

have you heard of the idea of "beginner's mind?" someone told me about it in relation to tennis, but i think it's true in anything competitive. basically, people who steadily improve are able to keep thinking about things as a beginner does, because as a beginner you have to constantly look for new things to change in your game, and new opportunities to learn. (again i'm not trying to call you out, this has been an enormous problem for me too lol)

even if you made mistakes--even if you made a LOT of mistakes--there are still things u can take away from those matches, and a lotta the advice we're fielding is still legit, imo. don't worry about it brah!

haha, I know it's all love! I was never mad to begin with. I wouldn't say "thanks for the tips" if I were pissed off.

Also, the not sleeping stuff was beyond my control. The car overheated 40 mins out when we were driving friday afternoon (the tourney being on saturday) and we were supposed to get housing the night before. So then we had to organize a way there (which took all night), and in the end we managed to get 13 people in 2 cars.

Yeah I think realizing that you don't HAVE to approach Falco makes the matchup a lot more tolerable. (Well, you don't really ever HAVE to approach anyone and that's the beauty of all of it)

Unknown, I get that you're frustrated or whatever about people critiquing the matches where you lost but, did you see my post where I was asking you questions about the games where you won? >_> I really wanna get better at fighting Falco on FD and you really impressed me on match 2...

thanks. I'll look it up.

 

[unknown522]

oops, double post.

Ok, so unknown522, I saw your set with Bam. OMFG sick game 2. You're the second Fox I've seen to use first hit uair into stuff, after Thunders - even though I know M2K was talking about it. I have a few questions to you about your FD game vs. space animals.

1. Your techchase game. I notice at low %'s you go for the techchase instead of chaingrabbing, which is understandable, especially if you have a stiff controller or something. What's your modus operandi here? Do you let them land, usmash on missed tech, and go for the grab on everything else? At what % do you like to start chaingrabbing?

I would've done the CG from 0% (like in my set vs kels), but I actually can't anymore with that controller. Yeah, if they tech roll, I just find it easier to grab. When they tech in place, I find that I mis-time the grab a lot, so I like to u-smash, u-tilt, shine, or drill them. There are definitely better options, but it's just preference towards what I can/can't do.

For the record, I don't think uthrow usmash is good at 0. I'm pretty sure DI away makes it so you can't techchase on reaction.

I don't think it's that good either, but I wanted to make sure I did damage.

2. On that sick double thunders -> 0-to-death you did, you did utilt into regrab at the higher %'s a lot. Do you know if utilt to grab again works versus any DI at that % (so like, above 50-60%)? Or do you have to like shffl -> stuff if they DI far enough away? I know you can combo utilt into run cancel utilt (the Otto) but I suck at that **** LOL. I don't react fast enough.

u-tilt -> regrab still works if they DI away. between 35%-65%, you can u-tilt -> regrab on DI away. If they don't DI, then I do the weak u-air -> u-tilt now. The dash cancel u-tilt stuff is so beast. I usually WD into u-tilt if I can pull it off (but again, with that controller I can't do it).

Actually, I would be down to just talk about chaingrabbing (and comboing after chaingrab) theory in general. Honestly most Foxes suck at it, compared to like, good Marths. and this includes me, even though I play FD only in tourney -_-; I blame the fact that I hardly ever get to smash, lol. anyway, I think Fox SHOULD be able to guarantee a kill (unless they DI off the stage, then you get an edgeguard anyway) but the chaingrab tree kind of explodes after 50% so yeah...

After the CG limit, then u-tilts/u-airs are just so good. Also, being able to tech chase on reaction is awesome. I need to be more consistent with that stuff and work on combos on other levels. I get a lot of those weak u-air combos on platforms vs other characters, like marth, sheik and ganon.

I also do the weak u-air -> u-smash, and weak u-air -> shine/u-tilt with falco, but I haven't gotten that recorded yet.


Edit: I uploaded matches of Raynex vs Weon-x: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CqavSKJjOk

 

[omgwtfToph]

u-tilt -> regrab still works if they DI away. between 35%-65%, you can u-tilt -> regrab on DI away. If they don't DI, then I do the weak u-air -> u-tilt now. The dash cancel u-tilt stuff is so beast. I usually WD into u-tilt if I can pull it off (but again, with that controller I can't do it).

Thanks! I see. And if they DI utilt away above 70%, you run -> shffl -> finisher (usmash or another aerial)?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

LOVAGE , i'd love to hear a quick guideline to playing the falco MU in your opinion sometime when you get a chance..you post alot of the matchup details as if it's common knowledge when i'm learning new things as i read that info lol

just things to keep in mind at all times, ways to react to approaches, anything. **** you play plenty of good falcos including the mang

 

[Lovage]

falco can be pretty hard here's some tips

don't get CC shined
don't fall for the same laser grab setups
learn to recover in a way that minimizes your chances of getting dair'd or dsmashed at low percents cuz you can't tech them until like 40 or w/e

kill him every time he's forced to up+b below the stage (this means knowing how to cover tricky angles when you don't have time to shine)

maximize your damage off grabs
NEVER try to grab unless it's 100% guaranteed (either ur confident in your reactions in a tech chase or you got a sick read)

-
at mid-range distance, use your dash dance to make him scared to laser, and then stuff him with nair when he does unsafe lasers

be hella good at maneuvering with your shield, use your shield as little but as effectively as possible, and learn how to wavedash oos after lasers as fast as possible. powershielding is good but the important part about it is that you shielded and WD'd out hella fast, not that you reflected a laser

use platforms to make falco chase you and put himself in a bad position, but don't CAMP platforms predictably to where he can easily bair you out of your jumps

be good at shine oos. this means knowing when to punish him when he messes up his spacing and ALSO knowing when to give him credit in his spacing and NOT try to shine oos (don't be cocky)

know when it's time to do a kooky uair. uair is a high risk high reward move that can easily turn the match in your favor if you can finesse your way into hitting one (if ur clever you'll find it hits more than you think)

don't get flustered cuz falco can kill you really easy off the edge for making mistakes (see: me vs. shiz from last year or w/e LOL)

don't get discouraged cuz falco can do like 60% cuz you didn't time your grab right or he CC'd your nair

play an adaptable style that knows when to bait his approaches with bairs/grabs, when to rush him down with nairs and when to use platforms to bait his jumps.

good luuuuck

 

[Divinokage]

Joe and Lovage with the purple!! =D

 

[Lovage]

you know what **** the purple


imma stay yellow for a minute

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Does that mean its about that time now?