Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Walt]

Uh WD back and give them no good options?

 

[omgwtfToph]

dsmash the ledge hits spacie side-B's...

or do you mean they already sweetspotted the ledge? if they already sweetspotted the ledge I like to run up next to the ledge and shield if I think they're gonna LHDL, or just like, full jump near the ledge to try to punish them coming up off the ledge or something

 

[Zoler]

It's pretty easy to tech dsmash, doesn't down angled ftilt hit farther out and makes it even impossible to tech it (without SDI at least)?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I like ftilt because it has a lot less lag. All the other perks are second to that, IMO.

 

[Winston]

your opponent sweetspot phantasms the ledge while your somewhat already close & facing them. GO

by sweetspot phantasm, do you mean they just get the right height?

Or do they use shortening to get the right distance also?

Uh WD back and give them no good options?

dsmash the ledge hits spacie side-B's...

or do you mean they already sweetspotted the ledge? if they already sweetspotted the ledge I like to run up next to the ledge and shield if I think they're gonna LHDL, or just like, full jump near the ledge to try to punish them coming up off the ledge or something

everything loses to perfect ledgedashing

aaaahhhhh

 

[Strong Badam]

i wait and hit them back off when they try to actually get back onto the stage from the ledge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

oh so you mean you like to give them opportunities to get back to neutral instead of taking your guaranteed stuff?

 

[username12345678]

uh. so sup fox boards. i decided to test out killing percentages for a Grounded Up-smash on all stages [/S ]Final Destination so here's what i got

Fox: 86%
Falco: 93%
JigglyPuff: 55%
Sheik: 81%
marth: 79%
Peach: 71%
Captain Falcon: 107%
Ice Climbers: nana: 75% popo: 72%
Doctor Mario: 79%
Ganondorf: 89%
Samus: 78%
Pikachu: 72%
Mario: 79%
Luigi: 76%
Donke y Kong: 97%
Link: 88%
Young Link: 78%
Zelda: 70%
Roy: 82%
MewTwo: 69%
Yoshi: 86%
Game & Watch: 60%
Ness: 78%
Bowser: 92%
Kirby: 63%
Pichu: 60%

side note: i did this in training mode so i cant account for DI so i suppose its not a sure percent for well. anyone but i assume its a pretty good ball-park.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

that must be fully charged because i know falcon dies at 123% uncharged with no DI on FD from another list just like that. Maybe m2k's?

 

[JPOBS]

shine, bair, and dsmash cover all options I can think of right now

none of em cover shorten'd side-b. they all miss i you go for punishing the regular side b, you have to straight up call the shorten.

that being sad, shorten'd side-B is OP recovery strategies. short side b to perfect ledgedash WAT DO U DOO?

 

[Wenbobular]

none of em cover shorten'd side-b. they all miss i you go for punishing the regular side b, you have to straight up call the shorten.

that being sad, shorten'd side-B is OP recovery strategies. short side b to perfect ledgedash WAT DO U DOO?

They can't really do anything about shortening -> ledgedash Nair without a pretty solid read to get to the ledge before you do

 

[JPOBS]

lol the "wat do you do" was a reference its awesomeness

 

[PK Webb]

i could neva get angled f tilt to hit so i always dsmash......im sooo noob

 

[username12345678]

that must be fully charged because i know falcon dies at 123% uncharged with no DI on FD from another list just like that. Maybe m2k's?

nah just checked. used 1/4 speed to make sure is isnt at all charged. im guessing the percent M2k had was from a stale Up-smash?

 

[JPOBS]

theres no way falcon dies from uncharged upsmash at 107 on FD 0_o
i don't even think fox dies at 86.

not in a position to test right now tho so i cud be wrong

edit: just checked. falcon does indeed die from uncharged upsmash on fd at 107.

idk what list sveet is talking about.

 

[Niko45]

Maybe that list is your % after the up smash instead of before? Regardless, no DI percents isn't really that helpful.

 

[Zoler]

that must be fully charged because i know falcon dies at 123% uncharged with no DI on FD from another list just like that. Maybe m2k's?

Falcon dies earlier than 123% in PAL lol.

 

[buddy]

Happy 4/20, everyone! Is playing Fox while stoned mad hard for anyone else? I think of creative stuff to try, but can never react quickly enough for any of it to work.

sooooo hard. i rarely play my fox against people when i'm high because i just suck and i definitely don't improve. get worse if anything.

i play my alts (sheik, marth) a bunch when i'm high cause they're more high characters for me. can **** around a lot, not have to do too much technical bull****.

but if i'm playing someone i know i can destroy i rock fox and just **** around

 

[JPOBS]

Maybe that list is your % after the up smash instead of before? Regardless, no DI percents isn't really that helpful.

yup that must be it.

although makng a list of percents after death is pretty useless, it gives no clear indication of when to start fishing for that kill. Pre-hit percents are more useful in that regard.

 

[KAOSTAR]

edit: ****!!! lol, nvm. I thought we were still talking about up throw up smash, my bad.

Maybe that list is your % after the up smash instead of before? Regardless, no DI percents isn't really that helpful.

no di percentages are important because things often won't work at that percent because they didn't di. the same reason u are dismissing no di situations, is why its important to know.


ppl sometimes intentionally don't di so that up throw up smash won't connect. no di percents are essentially the maximum percent up throw up smash works on. di left or right for that combo is actually bad di.

just be aware that u can do it a bit higher if they di.there are other situations where no di (neutral di is pro, no di is for noobs lol) is best...or a mix up

 

[Walt]

Maybe the 126% is with the best DI on FD before hit? Not counting crouch cancel half height DI weirdness.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah his list is before the usmash. inaccurate since the damage done by the move stales and knockback is calculated by damage after the hit. I'm having a hard time finding the list i'm talking about, but i think it was labeled "vertical survivability" in which the test was uncharged fox usmash on fd and seeing when the character died off the top with no DI. Falcon lives the longest of any character off the top, with his death percent being 123%. Fox and falco were pretty high too, along with ganondorf.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Here u go Sveet
[collapse=Top Fall Speed(vertical throw survivability)]Melee's top falling speeds and also their vertical throw survivability since throw knockback ignores weight. Since you get to top speed in a small fraction of a second, fall speed acceleration does almost nothing on vertical KOs and is only relevant on very short knockbacks. This is the % that M2's u-throw KOs on DL64:

196 - Falco

188 - Fox
187 - Captain Falcon

165 - Roy > Donkey Kong

154 - Sheik > Link = Young Link
153 - Marth > Ganondorf
151 - Bowser

144 - Pikachu > Pichu
143 - Yoshi

139 - Ness
137 - Mr Game & Watch
136 - Dr Mario = Mario

133 - Ice Climbers
131 - Peach = Kirby = Mewtwo
130 - Luigi
129 - Samus
127 - Zelda

121 - Jigglypuff[/collapse]
[collapse=Vertical Attack Survivability]Now this is how long they live vertically to attacks which is a combination of weight and fall speed, using Captain Falcon's stomp on Final Destination as the measurement (version 1.0, and Fountain of Dreams was used in cases of a tie):

171 - Captain Falcon
170
169
168
167
166
165
164 - Donkey Kong
163
162
161
160
159
158
157 - Falco
156 - Bowser
155
154
153
152 - Ganondorf
151
150 - Link
149
148
147 - Yoshi > Fox
146
145
144
143
142
141 - Roy
140 - Sheik
139
138
137 - Dr Mario = Mario
136 - Samus > Marth
135 - Young Link
134 - Ness
133 - Luigi
132
131
130
129
128
127
126 - Ice Climbers = Pikachu
125
124 - Peach
123
122 - Zelda
121 - Mewtwo
120
119
118
117
116
115
114
113
112
111 - Kirby
110
109
108
107
106 - Pichu = Mr Game & Watch
105
104
103
102
101
100
099
098 - Jigglypuff[/collapse][collapse=Weight Chart and Fall Speed]Here's the Melee weight list, but with the warm/cold fall speed colors. Though there is more emphasis on fall speed, notice how generally the ones with the warmer colors that are also closer to the top here are the ones that live longer vertically:

117 - Bowser
116
115
114 - Donkey Kong
113
112
111
110 - Samus
109 - Ganondorf
108 - Yoshi
107
106
105
104 - Captain Falcon / Link
103
102
101
100 - Dr Mario / Luigi / Mario
099
098
097
096
095
094 - Ness
093
092
091
090 - Peach / Sheik / Zelda
089
088 - Ice Climbers
087 - Marth
086
085 - Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
084
083
082
081
080 - Falco / Pikachu
079
078
077
076
075 - Fox
074
073
072
071
070 - Kirby
069
068
067
066
065
064
063
062
061
060 - Jigglypuff / Mr Game & Watch
059
058
057
056
055 - Pichu[/collapse]

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Cool thanks. Not the same test/list i was referring to, but with basically the same results.

 

[Strong Badam]

"Vertical Endurance/Survivability" is based on both weight and gravity. Each character has a gravity attribute that is "added" to their current falling speed (subtracts from upward velocity, adds to falling speed) each frame, and each character has a maximum falling velocity.
Captain Falcon's gravity attribute is 0.13, Donkey Kong's is 0.1, while Fox's is 0.23 and Falco's is 0.17. The reason Falco survives longer than Fox against upsmash is because he has a higher weight attribute, decreasing the initial knockback of the upsmash. And of course similarly for Falcon; his weight attribute is higher by a more substantial margin and thus gets to live a lot longer.

Another random piece of information is that throw knockback completely ignores weight, or, more accurately, assumes weight to be 100 regardless of the victim's weight attribute.

The KO %'s aren't really conclusive evidence for anything outside of "these are the %'s that the characters die against X attack on Y stage" but if you want to have them then by all means go ahead. As you mentioned, Sveet, you need to look for the % after the hit, as the percentage of the victim after the hit is what is used in the knockback formula.

 

[PK Webb]

any1 got anyway of training to keep your techskill up 4 longer periods of time?? my issue is im very technical but i cant keep my techskill up for long so i was wondering if any1 else has this issue and if any1 has a solution?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i doubt anyone knows a real answer to this. maybe watching videos to stay familiar with tech skill, and playing before whatever events you play at.

 

[Strong Badam]

Different for everyone. Tournament experience helps. It's more of an experience & stamina thing that you can't really "train" more effectively easily.

 

[unknown522]

Yo Fox boards, check this thread of Ontario Smash vids. I will be constantly updating this thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=12593481#post12593481

 

[KAOSTAR]

Cool thanks. Not the same test/list i was referring to, but with basically the same results.

yea, ive seen the list u are talking about b4. but im pretty sure u can just take the difference in damage percent of falcons stomp and fox's up smash and just find the kill percent on foxs up smash and adjust the chart accordingly.


but that could only work for throws. idk what the actual formula is so things may not calculate as im guessing.

 

[Brookman]

@ Webb: You're best off using a smaller number of more efficient techniques. For example, wavedashing, jump cancel for grab and up smash, short hops, fast falling, and dash movement.

It comes down to consistency. You have to accept your limitations and play inside of them. Additionally, this sounds like a problem related to the speed of the game. You can only input commands SO fast, A lot of tech skill inconsistency comes from trying to play the game much faster than you are actually able to. Try to get a better feel timing, particularly the wind down of moves and rolls, including l-canceled ones.



If I actually go to the next hog we'll get some games in and I'll see if I can show you some tricks.

 

[FoxLisk]

any1 got anyway of training to keep your erection up 4 longer periods of time??

that's what my mind went to first ><

 

[PK Webb]

lmao foxlisk naw im gud in that department but brookman that would be great

 

[Brookman]

this might help you with that problem, foxlisk

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12575804&postcount=16770

 

[Winston]

My first fox tournament videos! ... >_>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nE5S49DYlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP51k9I7Gmg

Critiques welcome. I know my tech skill is garbage though. I'm working on that

 

[FoxLisk]

this might help you with that problem, foxlisk

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12575804&postcount=16770

created a different problem... i came instantly

when's the next hog? i might go.

 

[Tomacawk]

not bad winston. my advice to you is to be more purposeful with your movement/move choices and play with more strategy...figure out if you're going to combo to break up the ICs or to go for damage and choose your movements/moves with that intent in mind
try to slow down a bit too, you get caught up in the rush of battle and make some poor choices/throw out a lot of moves that you shouldn't. At the beginning of the DL64 match you can see it right away, you went off the ledge and did a shine bair onto the platform when chu was just shielding on the ledge.

 

[unknown522]

My first fox tournament videos! ... >_>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nE5S49DYlI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP51k9I7Gmg

Critiques welcome. I know my tech skill is garbage though. I'm working on that

Not bad. Not bad at all.

 

[Brookman]

I think you look solid winston, but who the **** is that chudat noob and why is he playing IC's??

 

[ChivalRuse]

Chu is pretty bad. He loses to Vist and Chillin sometimes.