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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
more like swiftboss
So my friend, who is a relatively new player, has little experience vs. tourny level marth/sheik and these characters were basically walled him from making the bracket over the weekend. I do what I can to give him experience but:
1. My marth and, especially, my sheik are not consistently "tourny gay"
and
2. playing vs. one player -no matter how good they are- does not exactly qualify as "EXP." when tournament play is the goal.
From our matches he generally has a hard time dealing with marth's(my) dash/pivot grab and consequently, marth's (and my) chain grab > tech chasing > and edge guarding abilities.
He's come a long way in terms of patience but he might just be having a hard time understanding how to space against marth (I eat his dash dance with down tilt and dash attack all match, every match - taking into account that I'm basically reading his dash/spacing him out). On top of that he just gets frustrated by my general style of play (pivot grab > chain throw, spaced dash attacks on his dash dance, edge trapping with f/n air/tilts/throw "locks" into edge guards)
Maybe part of it is just my years of EXP vs. his ~year of EXP. and his utter lack of knowledge of fox .vs marth but he will ask for advice/practice then just get frustrated beyond reason when we actually try to play.
As for sheik, I don't have any solid concepts on how to play her but I basically just grab/ftilt/dash attack > edge guard and similar to his marth knowledge, he doesn't know how to approach sheik and basically makes poor reads out of desparation.
etc. etc. etc.
input?
I guess he just needs to keep nailing down his tech skill and focus more on making consistent reads and also learning how to combo into edge guards more. but again, I can't reflect the wide range of play styles and although he fairs well against me (since we play most often vs each other) he will still lose to XxRandyMarthxX
1. My marth and, especially, my sheik are not consistently "tourny gay"
and
2. playing vs. one player -no matter how good they are- does not exactly qualify as "EXP." when tournament play is the goal.
From our matches he generally has a hard time dealing with marth's(my) dash/pivot grab and consequently, marth's (and my) chain grab > tech chasing > and edge guarding abilities.
He's come a long way in terms of patience but he might just be having a hard time understanding how to space against marth (I eat his dash dance with down tilt and dash attack all match, every match - taking into account that I'm basically reading his dash/spacing him out). On top of that he just gets frustrated by my general style of play (pivot grab > chain throw, spaced dash attacks on his dash dance, edge trapping with f/n air/tilts/throw "locks" into edge guards)
Maybe part of it is just my years of EXP vs. his ~year of EXP. and his utter lack of knowledge of fox .vs marth but he will ask for advice/practice then just get frustrated beyond reason when we actually try to play.
As for sheik, I don't have any solid concepts on how to play her but I basically just grab/ftilt/dash attack > edge guard and similar to his marth knowledge, he doesn't know how to approach sheik and basically makes poor reads out of desparation.
etc. etc. etc.
input?
I guess he just needs to keep nailing down his tech skill and focus more on making consistent reads and also learning how to combo into edge guards more. but again, I can't reflect the wide range of play styles and although he fairs well against me (since we play most often vs each other) he will still lose to XxRandyMarthxX
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
if your dtilting his dashdance then he's not dashdancing in the right place to begin with..and if he sees you going in for the d-tilt he should be able to punish it easily.
as for shiek, i would focus on abusing f-tilt ALOOOOOOOOOT, along with the other tilts, just so he gets the concept down that he should never be in shieks face unless he's already established a solid entrance, and also so he learns to bait/mixup his approach so that the shiek can't just out prioritize his approach with f-tilt constantly.
as for shiek, i would focus on abusing f-tilt ALOOOOOOOOOT, along with the other tilts, just so he gets the concept down that he should never be in shieks face unless he's already established a solid entrance, and also so he learns to bait/mixup his approach so that the shiek can't just out prioritize his approach with f-tilt constantly.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
well just tell him that he's gotta surprise his opponents as to when he's coming in, by dash dancing or whatever, or they'll be able to assume what he's gonna do and **** him
unknown522
Some guy
but cyrain tells me that tope is better than him....
It's not as simple as me just running at him and down tilting ;]
It's hard to really translate how our matches go in words. So . .. . You should refrain from commenting on what he should or shouldn't be able to do and just expound upon your match up experience so I can share some game knowledge with him that is outside of my own concept.
Anyone, please, I'd appreciate any and all input on the subhect:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12528656&postcount=16563
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
well i didn't literally mean 'he should be able to' i meant, as fox, fox should be able to punish the dtilt.
either way i feel marth/shiek are two of the most important matchups for fox to know how to mixup/bait his approach properly, and you should definitely teach him about it
it's hard to shed everything about a matchup into a post, when you know nothing of the player's skill.
i
I'm asking you (and anyone willing) to try and translate your concepts of fox vs. marth and fox vs. sheik. If you feel you have nothing left to offer then that's alright with me. I'm just looking for input and you've offered your piece.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I would love to stroke Tope's sexy beard.
unknown522
Some guy
I could say a lot of useless crap, but he just needs to play more.
Sinji
Smash Master
I been reading the matchup against samus and a finisher would be nair>nair> usmash. are their any others?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
no, that is the only finisher you can land on samus
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I'm sure all the standard floaty kills that don't begin with throw apply
Like Nair -> Uair
...Iono what else
Like Nair -> Uair
...Iono what else
JPOBS
Smash Hero
waveshine upsmash is definitely not a good way to kill samoose
I'd prefer the useless crap.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Why not? It's much harder to kill her from the sides at least as Fox.
joeplicate
Smash Master
the best advice of all time
rly you could consolidate 99% of the **** on the fox boards into this statement
RE: pejorative
MMMMK, I can see this is going to go no where. Guess it's back to talking about how inconsistent/bad down air is. Seriously though, anyone who feels like contributing please do.
Also, on the topic of shine into retreating nair not being effective, how about shine retreating back air. I fuxed around with it and the spacing is a lot better than nair.
MMMMK, I can see this is going to go no where. Guess it's back to talking about how inconsistent/bad down air is. Seriously though, anyone who feels like contributing please do.
Also, on the topic of shine into retreating nair not being effective, how about shine retreating back air. I fuxed around with it and the spacing is a lot better than nair.
Niko45
Smash Master
I feel like this is the proper response to just about every question on SWF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdKSm-fWCII&feature=watch_response
Ya, I remember when G-reg posted that statement back in like 05 or 06.
Ya, I remember when G-reg posted that statement back in like 05 or 06.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
One of the simple things (that greatly complicate the matchup) is that all Marth wants is to establish a position and use that position to do what he wants.
Zone you to edge forcing you to try to run past/attack/try to go above. Get that tipper fair spacing for shield pressure. Achieve the DD zoning that allows him to grab/dtilt/dash attack where your actually at risk of getting hit by those things.
As Fox you don't want him to feel comfortable doing those things. It's that simple. You need Marth to feel the risk of trying to do those things to you.
I don't know if that would help, but it's a good mindset to have.
You can't stop Marth from getting those zones and DD grabs and dtilts all the time because he is a good character and if your playing someone of equal or higher skill you just need to try to balance it so that you win roughly half or more of those exchanges.
I think if you try to show him that he wants to disrupt your rhythm as opposed to trying to "beat" whatever he thinks your going to throw out that will help. You almost never just attack into Marth without a good reason to do so.
Doser
Smash Ace
No, you're definitely confusing Samus with a different character. The only finisher for Samus is nair>nair>usmash. Anything else doesn't work.
Sinji
Smash Master
^ LOL. i was wondering where wenbobular got nair>Uair from. Cause it doesn't work on samus.
Sinji
Smash Master
I think i got the counter move sets when fighting falco.
1) Full hop drill>shine when falcos spamming lasers.
2) shine oos after falco's dair>shine during shield pressure.
Just watching some Jman vs Lambchops back in 2010.
1) Full hop drill>shine when falcos spamming lasers.
2) shine oos after falco's dair>shine during shield pressure.
Just watching some Jman vs Lambchops back in 2010.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
gosh this thread is just solving matchup left and right! right there is the entire vs falco game, and earlier we leraned that you have to always kill samus with nair nair usmash. this is crazy. good work, team!
Sinji
Smash Master
tru mango and pp's fox probably has the best foxes.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Mango doesn't really play fox that well, he just outreads his opponent and then does fox things. The fundamental neutral game for fox as a whole is nonexistent because mango just sits there being better than the opponent. Not to say his fox isn't amazing with some of the stuff it does, but its missing what makes fox, fox.
Eggm's probably as good as a lot of the fox players that have been mentioned, but nobody honestly really is at the "top fox" level that jman is right now.
Eggm's probably as good as a lot of the fox players that have been mentioned, but nobody honestly really is at the "top fox" level that jman is right now.
Sinji
Smash Master
You have a point there. Mango missing what makes fox, fox.
Mango reacts every half second of the match and if you mess up he'l punish you. Thats what makes him a great ppl. I learned this when watching Hbox's interview at Apex 2010.
As for Jman, he's the top fox. Perfect spacing, great tech chasing and perfect reads.
joeplicate
Smash Master
don't say "perfect" bro
jman is the best fox right now, but i still feel like he's underperforming
it seemed like he practiced a lot before flying out to the CA touranemt (gsg2) and he was on some next level ****
and i don't really think mango "misses" anything in this game
if anything, sometimes i think ppl who play like campy *****es are missing what makes fox such a great character
(myself included)
jman is the best fox right now, but i still feel like he's underperforming
it seemed like he practiced a lot before flying out to the CA touranemt (gsg2) and he was on some next level ****
and i don't really think mango "misses" anything in this game
if anything, sometimes i think ppl who play like campy *****es are missing what makes fox such a great character
(myself included)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Are you sure about that? Or do you want everybody to play Fox as Fox is supposed to be played? If he is able to **** everybody with him then what's the real problem? I think it's because everyone is trying Fox like Fox is supposed to be played. It's not entirely wrong but it's not original, it's pretty predictable. And then this is why you see so many robotic Foxes. Being original puts people in really ****ty positions because they don't expect it. If something works well then you should do it, right?
Edit: Joe, =).
JPOBS
Smash Hero
People ALWAYS say this and i just don't get it.
I mean, He always gets between 5th-7th and only directly loses to players like Dr.PP, Amsah, M2k and Axe. the only people who outplace him are the aformentioned + mango and hbox.
then people say he "underperforms"
i really don't know what people expect from him
unknown522
Some guy
no offence to PP, but he is not a top fox.
Sinji
Smash Master
You have a point there. Their are a lot of robotic foxes in tournaments.
I think changing the metagame for fox is key to winning tourneys.
Armada was bored of watching the peach metagame, so he changed it and look at him now.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
why not?
also, i think you're wrong about mango's fox. i think mango abuses fox's speed in much more impressive ways than most people. instead of relying on his ability to simply pick openings and platform camp, mango use's fox's speed to allow him high mobility from very close up. he DD grabs things at close range, he pressures shields in ridiculous way because he knows fox is fast enough to punish the OoS option without just wearing down the shield, etc.
maybe we just differ on what makes fox, fox.
edit: second part is obviously @DruggedFox
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I do actually believe fox McCloud is the best character in SSBM, so when he doesnt take first or second...imo fox is underperforming.People ALWAYS say this and i just don't get it.
I mean, He always gets between 5th-7th and only directly loses to players like Dr.PP, Amsah, M2k and Axe. the only people who outplace him are the aformentioned + mango and hbox.
then people say he "underperforms"
i really don't know what people expect from him
I still think there is a level of Mastery yet to be achieved. Even at top level, mistakes are fairly abundant compared to alot of other games...and the truth is melee is just hard. But just wait another year or so, and look back to now. There will definitely be some differences, hopefully fox will be a more dominant force like he should be.