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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Sinji
Smash Master
tru words.
There is a level of mastery yet to be achieved.
In my opinion i think the metagame needs to change just a little bit so your opponent wont predict you.
also it takes a lot of reflexes to master fox. Were all human, so its pretty tough.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
There are plenty of things that require more concentration and for longer periods of time that humans can consistently and successfully do. Melee only requires concentrations bursts of about 3 1/2 minutes. Its doable, and ppl will only get better.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
I think you are wrong.. It's extremely hard to maintain focus all the time, we don't have infinite focus. There are things that WILL get you by surprise which can cost you a set. Do you honestly think you can react to everything? No you can't, you have to eventually predict stuff to reset your focus later during the match. Also, one simple technical mistake with Fox can be your death.. which also happens often. There's a lot of things which can break your concentration. Don't forget the tournament setting either, who are you fighting? Are you being cheered against? Are you getting pissed off because you missed things? Are you close to winning and then you feel your hands shaking? Are you in a close situation? Are you losing?
See? Don't be ridiculous. We are human. =P
Divinokage
Smash Legend
LOL well, if I think something is out of place then I also think that I should be something about it since I have been helped when I was a big noob too. =P
JPOBS
Smash Hero
guys stop talking about silly things like unlimited potential and focus. thats obviously not what joe was getting at when he said underperformed.
he was clearly talking about from a realistic PvP perspective.
he was clearly talking about from a realistic PvP perspective.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
my first thought when i read this post was "jman doesn't play protoss... he plays fox" x.x
JPOBS
Smash Hero
^lol
but seriously, who here agrees/disagrees that jman under performs given the current field of competition and metagame?
and what can anyone do to change it given he's the best current fox?
but seriously, who here agrees/disagrees that jman under performs given the current field of competition and metagame?
and what can anyone do to change it given he's the best current fox?
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
My point is that humans are capable of extreme focus for the length of a smash match and longer.
I never said that it was easy. I know its hard, and my previous post I state melee is just a hard game.
Im completely aware at how draining that **** can be, getting caught by surprise isnt even the same thing as a lack of focus. This game just has options, and its incredibly deep. U can be completely focused and still get caught by something you just didnt think of, or were unaware of.
I also said that ppl will only get better and that there definitely higher feats of mastery still left to be accomplished.
idk where u got infinite focus from my dude with assumed perfect play and decision making....not to mention I made 0 claims about the game itself. I only said there are other things somewhere within the entire world that are more taxing on a persons mind body and soul...than super smash brothers melee. And ppl are capable of holding focus for periods of time longer than a smash match, and on a consistent basis.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
What I was saying about mango specifically mostly applies to the fox's neutral game: one of fox's best attributes. Mango essentially bypasses the majority of the elements of the neutral game through his sheer ability to read his opponent, and this is what sets up for all the other ridiculous things he does.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
He's capable of placing better, and becoming a bigger threat later down the road. At the moment I believe he's playing his Fox at full capacity. Based strictly off how often he plays, how he looks in matches, and my experience against him personally:
The way he performs now is not more than what we expect, and not less. Its good, and clearly that's enough. He has proven to be on par with some of the best players of our time by defeating them in tournament time and again. While we don't often see Jman reaching into Fox's technical bag of tricks, his placings speak for themselves. He performs fine based on today's metagame.
If we want to change the tempo of Fox innovation, we have the challenge the Fox main that is at the helm of the ship. That change can come about in two ways.
1) Seemingly insurmountable odds, or an opponent that challenges our understanding of Fox (and thus our best Fox main) to the point of monstrous debate
2) A breakout top Fox main that puts a new spin on things.
Aside from a few bumps and bruises along the way, Jman has proved to be THE highest placing Fox main in the current community. I agree with your question Tristan. What more can we ask for?
When we he first broke out on the scene, his Fox play was phenomenal. But this impressive play was directly relative to where we were with the game. At the time, I don't think we were prepared for...well, whatever it was he was doing. I loved seeing that little kid rip up the scene. But he doesn't practice as much anymore. Now it seems like he has the crown, but for how long I wonder?
Mango bypasses Fox's technical faculties and uses Fox in a very straight-forward manner. His skill makes it look like Fox is a "pick up and play" character.
The way Mango plays Fox is not a departure from the styles we've seen. The reason he beats people as Fox is not because he revolutionizes match-ups, or re-invents Fox combo, pressure or spacing theory. He is doing things WE have discussed in this thread. He beats them because he is flat out better than them. Not to say that it isn't impressive; it's tough to do what he does with Fox on a consistent basis. But my point is he is an amazing player, not an amazing Fox. That's my opinion anyways. (and no I'm not slanted against pro-level pocket Foxes)
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Haha raynex, quoting my posts makes me feel like you're arguing against what I said despite us saying the same thing; glad somebody else agrees though =P
Hmm, breakout top fox main? It could happen, though jman definitely still is a ways ahead of the rest.
Hmm, breakout top fox main? It could happen, though jman definitely still is a ways ahead of the rest.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol I bet it helps a ****load
Cyrain
Smash Ace
Anyone know how I can find that video of a fox doing some cool **** on pokemon stadium with an actions per second counter going along with it?
Cyrain
Smash Ace
Gotta double post just to say.....I disagree.
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Jman's weird
Cuz when he's on his ****, he ***** mango and ****
But when he's playing mediocrely (for him (which happens like 95% of the time (from what i've seen))) he's just another Fox
Cuz when he's on his ****, he ***** mango and ****
But when he's playing mediocrely (for him (which happens like 95% of the time (from what i've seen))) he's just another Fox
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
i dont understand. what do you think an amazing fox looks like then? what does someone have to do to be playing fox rather than just being great?
I think fox is great because of his agility and the many different ways you can play him. Mango picked a simple, pressure-heavy style for fox and beats just about everyone with it. Why is that somehow inferior to jman's style of fox, in terms of fox-ness? Not enough DD'ing? not enough platform camping? not enough standard combos?
I just don't understand what you're saying at all.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
My apologies if I wasn't clear with what I posted. I did not say his style was inferior to Jman's, nor did I imply it. When I watch Mango play Fox it looks and feels like he's running train on opponents by virtue of an insane skill gap, rather than a thorough understanding of Fox strategy, and other subtleties. Again, its not that what he's doing is vastly different than what you or I would do - it's that he can do these things precisely when he wants to against any opponent, regardless of skill.
No, I don't think he DDs enough. No, I don't think he platform camps enough. Yes, I do think there are certain things he omits from his Fox game. Is it because he doesn't know of their value? Maybe yes, maybe no; but because of how good he is it doesn't matter. He's able to play to the character strengths that work for him.
I don't expect everyone to understand my justification. But I'm being honest in this analysis. Its not bull**** I typed to kickstart intense dialogue. When I watch him play Fox, this is what I see.
I'm a bit startled that you didn't understand what I was trying to say the first time. You're a smart guy. I think you understood it, but just didn't agree with me.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Yes it's the exact same thing. Getting caught by surprise/accidents happen is because someone was not aware. If you were not able to think of something it's simply because of a lack of experience.. Do you honestly think you can input the perfect DI all the time whenever you get punished.. lol..
Not entirely true, some people stall in skill level. Though, yes we do have a lot of potential.. you just need to find the things that will unlock your own potential the most.
Ok so what do you mean by focus here? It's pretty easy to go from start to finish. A lot of athletes do that. But why do you think not everyone is cut out to be on top? Why is there only 1 person that can out perform everyone else? You realize one simple thought can totally break your focus which will make you choke and fail the stunt you are trying to do. Whatever you do that's more taxing is simply your choice and your love. You can and can't compare smash to sports. The level of focus required for everything is different.
http://shoryuken.com/f280/thelos-quick-guide-reaction-based-defense-203774/
This guide was written by a pro SF player here in montreal. Maybe it'll help you understand what I mean better. I do encourage other people to read this too, it's really good!
Cyrain
Smash Ace
@Foxlisk Knowing a character inside and out and being great with them isn't the same as being able to beat someone with that character. Would anyone consider Mango an "amazing Link player"? I doubt it. He beat Kage because he's ****ing Mango. Lord HDL is an amazing Link player, but he's not as good as at Melee as Mango is. Mango could probably beat plenty of people with Pichu or Kirby or Bowser and make it look sexy, but that doesn't mean he's great with those characters. Being able to read your opponent like an open book makes it easy to win with pretty much any character. Mango doesn't main fox. Who the **** knows who he mains anymore? Point is, Jman is and has been the best fox main in the US for quite some time now. Mango's just better. That's pretty much just how it is.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@cyrain
When I say that, im less referring to a large skill gap and more to the fact that I don't think any other foxx will be *consistently* placing top 5 for a while
When I say that, im less referring to a large skill gap and more to the fact that I don't think any other foxx will be *consistently* placing top 5 for a while
joeplicate
Smash Master
^sup zoler!!
i'm actually very impressed at the discussion we've got going on, LOL
When I said earlier that it feels like Jesus is underperforming, I meant it on more of a personal level. I don't actually know if there's a legitimate, measurable difference, but seeing and playing him at GSG2 it seemed like he was the pinnacle of consistency. Can you guys tell a difference from the videos alone? I haven't looked yet, but it feels like when he came to California and won the tournament, there was like an aftershock of discussion: we were amazed and impressed that fox was still the best character, and that he even had more room to improve in the metagame.
It could have been a lot of different factors; I think there's a "good player effect" of sorts, because each player who's been flown out for the good player fund has won their respective tournament (Axe, Shiz, and Jman). It's a confidence booster of sorts. I saw the same thing happen when I interviewed Lucky for the smash podcast--he had been in kind of a slump, but then he played really well and won that tournament (****** me along the way). So Jesus definitely brought his A-game to that tournament. Also, I'm pretty sure he had been practicing. Normally, I don't think Jman practices all that much, but he did for GSG2, and his shield pressure was flawless. (In the most recent videos, he got stuck in his shine from turning around pretty frequently, and got punished for it.)
I know Jman's the top fox at the moment, so when I said underperforming I really just meant that he hasn't been playing fox to his top potential, like he seemed to be at the CA tournament.
I could be wrong; maybe the videos aren't that different after all, and his gameplay is quantitatively really similar. Or if someone went to both tournaments, and/or has seen him recently destroying, then if they can attest to his rapeness then that's cool too.
He's still ******, but it just doesn't seem like he's ****** as hard as he could be. =P
On a related note, do you guys remember when Dr. PeePee first started getting good, and we were all analyzing his style? "He shoots a lot of lasers, plays very safe, and has lots of tech skill and experience." And he is not, bar none, the most consistent falco.
As soon as someone starts becoming astronomically good with their character, they become a trendsetter. The way they play their character becomes THE style, which
we seek to emulate. I'm thinking that Jman's fox style is analogous to PeePee's, in a way. His zoning nairs are 100% safe. His dash-dancing is impeccable, and his risk vs. reward game is shockingly good. Maybe Jman's style is the way to achieve complete consistency as a fox player, even tournament-winning consistency.
And this ties in nicely with my own views about fox. I think it's rubbish when people say "he's not the best character because he's too hard, and human beings can't play him well enough to beat falco/sheik/_____." It's a good excuse, but it's still bogus. Jman has a way of humanizing fox--he focuses on first hits, safe shield pressure, and balancing punishment and self-preservation.
I don't want to say that we should all play gay, but this is a fox that wins tournaments. This is a fox with consistency, a fox that doesn't fail under the limitations of human focus. Jman is turning the character away from the TAS, robot-devil ideal that every noob fox player aspires to, and making him more viable.
tl;dr
jman is ****, but maybe not as **** as he COULD be
but he's still awesome because he's the most consistent, and this is a trend in fox play we might see more of in the future
and anyone who complains about the limitations of human focus is a born failure.
=D
i'm actually very impressed at the discussion we've got going on, LOL
When I said earlier that it feels like Jesus is underperforming, I meant it on more of a personal level. I don't actually know if there's a legitimate, measurable difference, but seeing and playing him at GSG2 it seemed like he was the pinnacle of consistency. Can you guys tell a difference from the videos alone? I haven't looked yet, but it feels like when he came to California and won the tournament, there was like an aftershock of discussion: we were amazed and impressed that fox was still the best character, and that he even had more room to improve in the metagame.
It could have been a lot of different factors; I think there's a "good player effect" of sorts, because each player who's been flown out for the good player fund has won their respective tournament (Axe, Shiz, and Jman). It's a confidence booster of sorts. I saw the same thing happen when I interviewed Lucky for the smash podcast--he had been in kind of a slump, but then he played really well and won that tournament (****** me along the way). So Jesus definitely brought his A-game to that tournament. Also, I'm pretty sure he had been practicing. Normally, I don't think Jman practices all that much, but he did for GSG2, and his shield pressure was flawless. (In the most recent videos, he got stuck in his shine from turning around pretty frequently, and got punished for it.)
I know Jman's the top fox at the moment, so when I said underperforming I really just meant that he hasn't been playing fox to his top potential, like he seemed to be at the CA tournament.
I could be wrong; maybe the videos aren't that different after all, and his gameplay is quantitatively really similar. Or if someone went to both tournaments, and/or has seen him recently destroying, then if they can attest to his rapeness then that's cool too.
He's still ******, but it just doesn't seem like he's ****** as hard as he could be. =P
On a related note, do you guys remember when Dr. PeePee first started getting good, and we were all analyzing his style? "He shoots a lot of lasers, plays very safe, and has lots of tech skill and experience." And he is not, bar none, the most consistent falco.
As soon as someone starts becoming astronomically good with their character, they become a trendsetter. The way they play their character becomes THE style, which
we seek to emulate. I'm thinking that Jman's fox style is analogous to PeePee's, in a way. His zoning nairs are 100% safe. His dash-dancing is impeccable, and his risk vs. reward game is shockingly good. Maybe Jman's style is the way to achieve complete consistency as a fox player, even tournament-winning consistency.
And this ties in nicely with my own views about fox. I think it's rubbish when people say "he's not the best character because he's too hard, and human beings can't play him well enough to beat falco/sheik/_____." It's a good excuse, but it's still bogus. Jman has a way of humanizing fox--he focuses on first hits, safe shield pressure, and balancing punishment and self-preservation.
I don't want to say that we should all play gay, but this is a fox that wins tournaments. This is a fox with consistency, a fox that doesn't fail under the limitations of human focus. Jman is turning the character away from the TAS, robot-devil ideal that every noob fox player aspires to, and making him more viable.
tl;dr
jman is ****, but maybe not as **** as he COULD be
but he's still awesome because he's the most consistent, and this is a trend in fox play we might see more of in the future
and anyone who complains about the limitations of human focus is a born failure.
=D
Walt
Smash Ace
"robot-devil ideal"
I just got your avatar. Obviously it's robot devil, I just didn't put it together with the robot devil hands episode.
I just got your avatar. Obviously it's robot devil, I just didn't put it together with the robot devil hands episode.
joeplicate
Smash Master
that episodes
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPES
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I've kinda thought this for a while but I would never have been able to verbalize it so succinctly :x
brilliant point, joe
Tomacawk
Smash Master
had to. nice post.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I still don't understand why Joe's not in the MBR.
That was actually a very insightful post.
Smooth Criminal
That was actually a very insightful post.
Smooth Criminal
Divinokage
Smash Legend
@Joe, Failing technical skills is not simply about consistency.. I think it depends more who you face. I realized the stronger your opponent is, the more pressure there is. If let's say I face someone weaker than me, I will never fail anything because I won't 2nd guess myself at all but on the contrary if I face someone stronger than I'm not so sure anymore if things will work or not.. So there is a lot more thoughts that comes to mind when I play someone stronger.
Cyrain
Smash Ace
Gotcha. That's fair. I'm slowly working my way there =D
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Great post Joe! Well worth the read.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
bowls before watching jmans sets
win
win
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I love your "warrior" mindset, Kage. It definitely allows you to persevere and grow, even when the chips are down. However, I feel that this particular segment is where the proverbial "chink in the armor doth appear." You should never second guess anybody in a tournament environment. Ever. Not even yourself.
People's skill levels are in constant flux nowadays when it comes to this game. We're seeing the rise and fall (meteoric, in some cases) of great and not-so great players alike. That means a lot of people are putting in more work, playing more and getting better. Not everybody, mind you, but more than just a handful. That said, it makes tourneys kind of an organic environment. You never know what may or may not happen (inb4 "the Warrior always wins," lol. <3). What usually is happening, however, is a given match between you and someone else. That's what matters most. You gotta focus more on what's happening on that screen than anything else. Banish the thought of who you're playing. Doesn't matter whether they're good, bad or ugly.
I was cowed at first playing Darkrain at TO5, and he promptly roflstomped me because I was just overwhelmed. Not only was I playing the Darkrain, but because of the sheer skill gap that existed between the two of us. I took a minute after the first match of our set and I was just thinking to myself, "well damn. I got **** on pretty hard and I'm probably going to be in a combo video because of it." Darkrain, man. Darkrain. Larger than life, right? That's when I realized that he is that: Darkrain, Captain Falcon extraordinaire. A man who is superbly talented, yes, but still just that. A man. He was competition; I wanted to make it out of pools, dammit. At that point it didn't matter whether he was better than me or not; I just wanted to win. So I took that, drew on it, and proceeded to shave off a few stocks off of him in the next match where I CP'd Battlefield. I lost (clearly), but I noticed that I did a helluva lot better by looking at Darkrain in the most objective sense. I was able to look past the hype, focus on what knowledge I had of the match-up, and do it. Not to say I didn't respect the guy or anything like that, but when I was thinking that when it comes game time...
...it's go time. Not everybody approaches this in the same way. Lord knows I'm sitting here vouching for what could be considered instinctual-level playing, without ego or without worry, and even I would be hypocritical to say that pressure doesn't get to me sometimes. It does. However, I feel that this line of thinking would benefit you man.
Most productive post on Smashboards ever.
P.S.
I'm the Sheik at 3:19 getting *****.
Smooth Criminal
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
nah i totally understand what you're saying in an abstract sense. i say things like that about other players, too. i just don't agree with it re: mango's fox.
the thing is, i dont see how you can argue that he doesn't DD enough or, as someone (DF?) put it, that he doesn't abuse the neutral game properly, when he simply abuses different situations. I think a big part of fox is that the reason he's the best character is because he's fast, so playing fox is about abusing his speed, not about any sort of metagame-specific way of doing so. jman abuses fox's speed with lasers, platforms, and camping; mango abuses it up close with more pressure and baits.
Basically what I don't understand is what your conception of a true fox is.
Lovage
Smash Hero
i love jman's fox but i'm definitely striving for the robo devil ideal myself
i think i'm getting a lot better at it though, last few months i warm up a lot faster and can play really fast/precise for longer. so we'll see how that goes and when i start to have to make sacrifices
i think i'm getting a lot better at it though, last few months i warm up a lot faster and can play really fast/precise for longer. so we'll see how that goes and when i start to have to make sacrifices