Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

Sinji, I don't you understood my question. I would waveshine the falco, and jab him for the thunders combo, but he SDI's the jab so it doesn't reset him. What do I do?

if he's doing it consistently enough that you notice your thunders combo continuously failing, skip the jab and just run up and charge a upsmash

his unneeded sdi will make him stand and then he gets smacked in the face. janky as hell but it'll teach him a lesson

 

[Tomacawk]

brookman, seriously shut up, you are a ****ing idiot
I have no patience for your unwarranted narcissistic ignorant ***

you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm talking you hit the dair at the earlier than mid point of your short hop--way out of grab/utilt range. No way would turn around utilt hit. It's spacing where short hop bair will hit with your toes--that distance. Turn around jab/dtilt is actually really interesting.

 

[Palpi]

duuude, jpobs...thats a really good idea, and i totally forgot about dash attack and utilt

 

[FoxLisk]

brookman, seriously shut up, you are a ****ing idiot
I have no patience for your unwarranted narcissistic ignorant ***

you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm talking you hit the dair at the earlier than mid point of your short hop--way out of grab/utilt range. No way would turn around utilt hit. It's spacing where short hop bair will hit with your toes--that distance. Turn around jab/dtilt is actually really interesting.

oh are you saying like, you dash forward, SH, dair immediately, clip someone with the beginning of it and keep going through them?

cause that was very unclear if that's the situation you're talking about.

 

[Brookman]

brookman, seriously shut up, you are a ****ing idiot
I have no patience for your unwarranted narcissistic ignorant ***

you guys are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm talking you hit the dair at the earlier than mid point of your short hop--way out of grab/utilt range. No way would turn around utilt hit. It's spacing where short hop bair will hit with your toes--that distance. Turn around jab/dtilt is actually really interesting.

I mean, that was (what I believed to be) a blatantly sarcastic post in the first place. Also, Money match for next months rent?

 

[Tomacawk]

oh are you saying like, you dash forward, SH, dair immediately, clip someone with the beginning of it and keep going through them?

cause that was very unclear if that's the situation you're talking about.

exactly

I mean, that was (what I believed to be) a blatantly sarcastic post in the first place. Also, Money match for next months rent?

I can never tell when you're being sarcastic because you're stupidity is unimaginably expansive
I think a cash battle is required at this point

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I know im late to the party, but i thought that fox's dair was always shield-grab-able. Gonna double check, but i thought there was -8 on shield from dair.

 

[Sinji]

What do you guys think about nair>shine>jab>dair>turn around grab for thunders combo?

 

[FoxLisk]

What do you guys think about nair>shine>jab>dair>turn around grab for thunders combo?

um. sounds bad. even assuming they don't (a)sdi the jab, theyll have to then also not asdi the dair or buffer anything out of it. you can go for a dair reset instead of a jab reset if your opponent isnt good at getting out of those, but dont do both, i'd say

@tomacawk:

id try reverse ftilt if you end up in that situation and strive to mostly space better.

also brookman isn't as stupid or unreadable as you think. it's quite clear to me, at least, when he's just being sarcastic. please dont flame so much.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I like nair shine double jab sh uair up tilt grab alot more.

 

[Brookman]

edit: see next post

 

[Brookman]

I can never tell when you're being sarcastic because you're your* stupidity is unimaginably expansive

I think a cash battle is required at this point

*scrolls down to topic review*

*sees sveets post*

*approves*

*scrolls farther*

Ah yes,

Also, Money match for next months rent?

Alternatively, we could money match for my traveling expenses should I come visit your region ;]

 

[KirbyKaze]

I know im late to the party, but i thought that fox's dair was always shield-grab-able. Gonna double check, but i thought there was -8 on shield from dair.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10579644&postcount=1

 

[Brookman]

33 (9) Is the shine input on this frame?
34 Shine

As far as I understand frames, An action begins the frame after the input


In otherwords, I input shine on frame 33 and it comes out on frame 34. If I'm wrong and the shine comes out on the same frame as the input then. . . .???

 

[Tomacawk]

You got me on the you're failure. I'm legitimately embarrassed, it's a mistake I nearly never make and I picked a horrible time to make it.
You're still a dummy.


Sinji I saw in Scar's thread that you got a new player onto smashboards (erasor.). It's really cool that you're helping your community grow, I hope to see you playing and improving for years to come.

 

[PK Webb]

foxes that use x to jump how do u sh nair shine sheild consistently

 

[Eccentricities]

I used to have problems sh nair'ing, until I used Z to imput an attack. Helped me a lot.

Running shhfl's for me, are easier done when running. Just need to practice.

 

[Brookman]

foxes that use x to jump how do u sh nair shine sheild consistently

Learn the timings for the inputs. Train your fingers to move faster and be more precise with your inputs. I think fast falling is probably the most difficult aspect. Once you figure that one out you'll start feeling like you're shffling through butter.


Using z as an input is risky since an error results in a JC grab.


GF from the tournament I didnt attend yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDgcot6rJpQ&feature=feedu

 

[Druggedfox]

foxes that use x to jump how do u sh nair shine sheild consistently

I use control stick for pillaring specifically but uh you can just slide your finger from B to X across the A button for the jump.

 

[PK Webb]

with falco i have absolutely no issues at all doing sh anything on a sheild so i guess i just need practice =(

 

[Wenbobular]

Falco's jump takes approximately 1000 frames before he's actually in the air ~_~...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I believe KK's data shows it is -7 on shield which means a frame perfect grab can always get fox, but fox can guard against a non-perfect grab by being perfect himself.

 

[Druggedfox]

Falco's jump takes approximately 1000 frames before he's actually in the air ~_~...

It's actually 2000, but you fall asleep for the first 1000

 

[Brookman]

@sveet: your grab would only have to be perfect if your opponent is also playing perfectly. I routinely grab drill on my shield vs. even the better players around here (cort, spawn) and they are able to do the same in return - sometimes seemingly before I even land (spacing, perhaps - either way, you can't l cancel into shine if you don't land.


That's why, all those weeks ago, I mentioned drill being fox's worst aerial on shields. Let's not forget that players may often leave large gaps between the last hit of the dair and the shine due to the nature of the down air itself.

 

[JPOBS]

Its good on shields for 2 things though:

1. crossups
2. Poking and hit confirms

first first because the hitbox stays out and active the entire time you move through the shield which is good for obvious reasons.

After you whittle down your opponents sheild with nair shines, or by them just shield camping incessantly, using dair to poke their shield (due to its multiple hitboxes) is pro tier.

 

[Brookman]

I don't see how down air is any better for crossing than a nair or bair or up air or fair for that matter. As for shield stabbing, any move that can stab is useful. You can frequently stab high back air vs characters like marth or falco or DK. I think we can all agree that shield stabbing is inherently useful

 

[JPOBS]

I don't see how down air is any better for crossing than a nair or bair or up air or fair for that matter.

because it keeps the shield in stun for a longer duration than those moves due to hitting multiple times.

As for shield stabbing, any move that can stab is useful. You can frequently stab high back air vs characters like marth or falco or DK.

Yea, but dair air doesn't need to be aimed or placed in specific spot. plus you can transfer smoothly from any form of pressure into a dair, whereas bair, dtilt etc ave the limitations of needing to be set up or in a particular positioning (i.e. ur back to them)

I think we can all agree that shield stabbing is inherently useful

indeed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I believe KK's data shows it is -7 on shield which means a frame perfect grab can always get fox, but fox can guard against a non-perfect grab by being perfect himself.

If Fox was super perfect he'd delay the Dair by 1 frame to get a 6/6 split that would be unshieldgrabbable but obviously that's completely unrealistic. Doing the Dair super fast out of the jump after canceling the Shine as early as possible is a pretty tall order by itself.

Dair is good on paper for cross ups but I always forget to use it for that in matches.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox is cheap and can do pressure like late nair -> shine -> retreating dair. Why does he get to do so much stuff for free? Because he's Fox.

 

[Divinokage]

Fox is cheap and can do pressure like late nair -> shine -> retreating dair. Why does he get to do so much stuff for free? Because he's Fox.

Whoa.. that's risky business. lol.

 

[Brookman]

retreating nair > retreating dair.

 

[Druggedfox]

A high level fox player should have practiced dair--> shining 100000000 times; a top level opponent will not have practiced shield grabbing dair--> shine nearly as many times. Honestly? Sheer repetition should ensure that the fox player has better timing and will consistently come out on top.

 

[RaynEX]

Fox is cheap and can do pressure like late nair -> shine -> retreating dair. Why does he get to do so much stuff for free? Because he's Fox.

retreating nair > retreating dair.

Retreating nair gets grabbed by a shielding Falcon. Sad really, because that means Marth / Sheik can easily grab it. Dair would be treated the same in that situation. Fox isn't in the air for as long as Falco is, thus preventing him from retreating as far while airborne. Because of the inherent similarities between Fox and Falco, players intuitively think its a great idea.

Fox is often better crossing up or staying in his opponent's face. His retreating aerials are not as effective, IMO.

 

[Brookman]

A high level fox player should have practiced dair--> shining 100000000 times; a top level opponent will not have practiced shield grabbing dair--> shine nearly as many times. Honestly? Sheer repetition should ensure that the fox player has better timing and will consistently come out on top.

top level players don't know how to shield grab?? Things sure have gone down hill since I was traveling :/

 

[RaynEX]

I'd put money on the Fox to screw up.

 

[Druggedfox]

I highly doubt top players have specifically practiced with the exact shield stun there is on fox's dair and consistently frame perfectly shield grabbing.

I don't see why the fox would mess up if he has put serious practice time. I'm not implying you should be frame perfect, but after playing fox for 6-7 years and practicing tech skill on my own and applying it in matches... I don't think its an exaggeration to say I'll be better at timing the shine than they will be at timing the shield grab.

 

[Brookman]

Let's change the subject:

Tipped Nair spacing is greater than peach's grab range (and of course, everyone below her) but I never got around to trying it out (for lack of opponents to test against) against the other characters above her:

1) Samus
2) Link
3) Young Link
4) Marth
5) Roy
6) Yoshi
7) Kirby <---lol \
8) Sheik <---lol /
9) Zelda
10) Falco
11) Jigglypuff
12) Mewtwo
13) Peach

 

[KirbyKaze]

Retreating nair gets grabbed by a shielding Falcon. Sad really, because that means Marth / Sheik can easily grab it. Dair would be treated the same in that situation. Fox isn't in the air for as long as Falco is, thus preventing him from retreating as far while airborne. Because of the inherent similarities between Fox and Falco, players intuitively think its a great idea.

Fox is often better crossing up or staying in his opponent's face. His retreating aerials are not as effective, IMO.

I'm about 90% sure you can use your tippy toes to pull a Falco and get out of range of the smaller shield grabs like Falcon and Peach. You might have to start the pressure a little differently at first, but that might be something neat to explore anyway.

Sheik and Marth obviously giggle at this sort of thing though.





I'm not sure how much I like drillshines as a primary means of pressure just because even if you hit one on a retreating opponent you usually can't follow it (sucks when your dair clips them as they're wavedashing away or whatever other actions may be incurred... too many times I have hit with a Dair as they're moving away and I get the initial hit of the Dair but their WD momentum and body contortions take them out of my reach for the remaining three or so hits and I get grabbed).

I feel the simplicity of the drillshine as pressure is a limitation. I usually feel, when Fox drillshines my shield, I have an opening between the last hit of it and the Shine. I usually feel I can do actions there. Because drillshines never change substantially, it's kind of relaxing to know there's a constant. With Nairs I know they can switch up the timing or whatever to intimidate, trap, or put pressure on me but I don't feel that sort of fear with Dairs. Full jump Dair as pressure is sometimes really annoying though (even if it's not legit it's so cute and kind of counters a bunch of stuff... thank god for wavedashing though).

I also feel when I do early Nairs they're more likely to hit someone WDing through me than a Dair is but I may just be slow.

That said, I like drillshines when people are on platforms because you get a bunch of hits and you don't have to jump up with any spacing or timing like you would with Nair or Bair. You can also sometimes knock people off the platform with the multi-hit and try a bizzare awkward combo setup, although if they're super close to the edge of the platform Uair is better for that.

 

[Lovage]

"retreating nair" like everyone learned from mango's falco isn't as good with fox imo spacing your attacks from the beginning works better usually, but is really delicate and hard to do all the time


this is a good policy to strive towards in general because it decreases your chances of being hit by shine oos or certain aerial oos's.

i do it a buncha good times in this set
http://youtu.be/iJHb-8BczTQ



edit: aaaaaand drill PRESSURE kinda sucks, you can use it to poke the top of their head when their shield gets small (the joey) as well as certain other small situations, but at most other times it's better to PRESSURE with nair, shine and crossup bair.

drill as a move in general is fantastic idk what ur really talking about brookman LOL. i would say that it's slightly higher risk in certain situations, the same risk as nair/bair in other situations, but generally a really rewarding move.

 

[Brookman]

If you quote my posts I'm sure I could clarify for you.