Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[unknown522]

I've never really understood why people think fox **** falcon... falcon has way better dd game, way better punishment and dies later. His only problem is edgeguarding but he has a way easier time recovering against fox than say sheik or marth ( SDI shines = gaining height >_> ). Falcon also has more priority than fox unless the falcon spaces incorrectly.

Falco is another story, you need to learn how to play aggressively if you want to handle that matchup... which many ppl suck at.

never seen a post so wrong in my life

lol. This is great

 

[Evoke]

Brookman, I beat that Falco finally. I just wasn't acting on his predictability. Pretty much all he did was waveshine if I'm in shield, illusion to get back on the stage, and pillar every other time. No grabs whatsoever.

 

[Sinji]

Patience is key against IC's. Same thing applies for Falco.

Dr.pp said that he would take his time against woobles in the second match of the set at Apex 2010.
And it payed off.

 

[Brookman]

@JV: Dair is probably the worst aerial to use against shields, regardless of character.

Brookman, I beat that Falco finally. I just wasn't acting on his predictability. Pretty much all he did was waveshine if I'm in shield, illusion to get back on the stage, and pillar every other time. No grabs whatsoever.

Very glad to hear it and also that I could help. the more of us beating falco players the better off the world will be.

It's falco. Just shine and up smash the **** out of it till it dies.

Went back to check out what I said and I think I'm noticing a pattern in my advice.

 

[voorhese]

wow i thought it was best vs ice climbers lol, i dont use it often thought like ever....only on samus/peach to stop CC shenanigans. i have 0 IC experience though.

 

[Brookman]

It has a lot of hits but such low hit stun it can be really easy to shield grab, even with l-cancels

 

[Lovage]

EDIT: nvm

 

[Tomacawk]

dair is really good on shield...if you time your dair right it's always safe. You can also use your momentum and fastfall timing to land it where ever you want on their shield as you approach...if they put up their shield while you're dairing you should start aiming immediately. Best case scenario you land behind them and shine or shffl bair behind them and space yourself out of aerial oos punish range (Kels is REALLY good at this, watch him play vs cosmo and he does it all the time); second best case scenario you land on top of their front close enough to guarantee your shine hits.
Let me elaborate on what I mean by timing your right.
You want to land your dair in two situations (and they're basically the same)...either after the last hitbox that comes out (it has more shield stun [maybe more hitstun too for easier dair to utilt/usmash combos, but I'm not as sure on this]) or as soon as possible after one of the earlier hitboxes hit. If you've landed with the proper timing in either scenario, you should be able to shine safely on shield.

Bair is the best but it's more situational--you have to have your back to them and you have to land your bair low. If you aren't close enough for a shine to hit then you should probably dash away slightly and dash dance in front of them until they act (careful doing this against marth, marth players like to wavedash fsmash oos and catch you off guard)

EDIT: nvm

spit your game, talk your ****, grab your gat, call your click

 

[Druggedfox]

Dair is so good for shield poking since you actually get time to register the hit confirm and follow it up >_> If you land a random nair during pressure you can't really follow it up

 

[Sinji]

Dairs good but not good on IC's. They can sheild high and grab out of it= punishment.

 

[Ocean]

this isn't really contributing, but it's ICs, not IC's. an apostrophe isn't needed, since there's not a contraction or possession.

please continue with scheduled programming.

spit your game, talk your ****, grab your gat, call your click

RIP.

 

[unknown522]

Dairs good but not good on IC's. They can sheild high and grab out of it= punishment.

that's incorrect sir.

 

[Lovage]

yeah come on doods

enough of these rubyris-style posts LOL

 

[RaynEX]

I cant l cancel vs ice climers(when theyre together) so i just pick a platform lvl and all I do spam shine ->jump on a platform, and fall trought platform shine -> rejump on a platform, when you seperated them just go standard rambo mode then you win.

this probably doesnt work vs good ice climbers tho =X never played one

This is what I do vs. good ICs and it works amazingly well. You don't have to tweak this strategy that much, just get better at it. DO NOT approach ICs from the front. Dair in between them, or pressure from behind.

@JV: Dair is probably the worst aerial to use against shields, regardless of character.

Fair is worst, followed by uair. Dair is actually better than all Fox's other aerials if your opponent is shielding on a platform. You'll hit their shield, fastfall it and shine, and continue pressure. If you bair or nair, you'll either fly up past them or behind them, and lose any advantageous positioning you had.

If newer players saw that post they would think you were right.

spit your game, talk your ****, grab your gat, call your click

squeeze your clip, hit the right one, pass that weed, i got to light one.

 

[Brookman]

Move definitely stabs on shields, I'll give ya that one.

 

[Lovage]

If newer players saw that post they would think you were right.

yea brookman step ur ****ty generalization game up

ROFL

 

[Tomacawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VGIK6hCpcY#t=3m55s
there's an example of:dair's usefulness, good shield pressure, good teamwork, and good stage awareness (this may not be evident but I did uthrow shine because I knew falcon was coming to whoop my *** and wanted to displace my location fast. Perhaps there was a better choice here?). Notice also that the dash attack was fast but put us both in a laggy state. Running waveshine/dash cancel jab/dair would have been better. We all know these gameplay nuances or at least understand the importance of doing little stuff like this
can we talk about fox's team game a little bit?
Fox's versatility in teams is remarkable. I love that he's such a 1v2 juggernaut; he is also great at surviving by virtue of typical opponents having weaker gimp games in doubles. He excels at racking up damage fast and is among the best in the game at breaking combos off early to stay safe (refer back to the video example, there are lots more possibilities). He moves fast [horizontally and] vertically so he's able to save teammates before they leave the blast zones with dair/fair. He can save allies very safely by firefox stalling on the ledge to catch their air dodge/short recovery. He has great, reliable, and precisely aimable kill moves [bair, uair, usmash] that ensure very fast kills out of teammates grabs/laggy moves. He can play aggressive, defensively, and territorially (referring to zoning/spacing)--AT THE SAME TIME. The limits are your own brain and reaction time.

 

[Brookman]

yea brookman step ur ****ty generalization game up

Down air is completely useless. down air is an awful, inconsistent move.


Suck it


I'd tell you to step up your "useless as ****" posts but I see you've already got that down as well as your tech skill.

 

[Tomacawk]

patiently awaiting escalation

 

[Fernandez]

Nair... 12 damage... 5 frames of hitlag?
So just wait about .1 seconds more than usual before you l-cancel against IC's?

idk the only time i played a descent ic i just coudnt do it, probably because the fastfall timing is different aswell and whenever they shield sometimes nana lightshields and popo does normal shield(idk if ic players so that on purpose), then the timing is also very diffferent

 

[Brookman]

patiently awaiting no escalation.


I love Fernandez's avatar.

 

[Lovage]

my tek skill DOES **** ty :D

 

[Brookman]

patiently awaiting no escalation.

<hr><-- these are lines
This is you reading between them ;]
<hr><--


:D

 

[Lovage]

not gunna lie i have no idea what ur talking about LOL

 

[Brookman]

not gunna lie i have no idea what ur talking about LOL

Also a good reason not to do drugs.

 

[RaynEX]

Move definitely stabs on shields, I'll give ya that one.

When your opponent is on a platform, dair's merit does not come from its ability to shield stab. It hits their shield continuously on the way up and the way down, unlike all of his other aerials. This lets you stay in their face when you otherwise would not be able to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VGIK6hCpcY#t=3m55s
there's an example of:dair's usefulness, good shield pressure, good teamwork, and good stage awareness (this may not be evident but I did uthrow shine because I knew falcon was coming to whoop my *** and wanted to displace my location fast. Perhaps there was a better choice here?). Notice also that the dash attack was fast but put us both in a laggy state. Running waveshine/dash cancel jab/dair would have been better. We all know these gameplay nuances or at least understand the importance of doing little stuff like this
can we talk about fox's team game a little bit?
Fox's versatility in teams is remarkable. I love that he's such a 1v2 juggernaut; he is also great at surviving by virtue of typical opponents having weaker gimp games in doubles. He excels at racking up damage fast and is among the best in the game at breaking combos off early to stay safe (refer back to the video example, there are lots more possibilities). He moves fast [horizontally and] vertically so he's able to save teammates before they leave the blast zones with dair/fair. He can save allies very safely by firefox stalling on the ledge to catch their air dodge/short recovery. He has great, reliable, and precisely aimable kill moves [bair, uair, usmash] that ensure very fast kills out of teammates grabs/laggy moves. He can play aggressive, defensively, and territorially (referring to zoning/spacing)--AT THE SAME TIME. The limits are your own brain and reaction time.

Good rundown. i agree with everything you posted here. Played correctly, I think he has the best chance at making a 2 on 1 comeback.

His ability to cut combos short, space, then resume his offense, is remarkable. Especially considering all the factors that can drastically change a situation in teams. You're right in saying that all that limits Fox in teams is your own potential; he can do virtually anything successfully in doubles.

 

[Brookman]

Yo, Raynex bro, this is 2011 and we shine platform waveland shine pressure now.

 

[omgwtfToph]

that's probably what he meant

 

[Strong Badam]

idk the only time i played a descent ic i just coudnt do it, probably because the fastfall timing is different aswell and whenever they shield sometimes nana lightshields and popo does normal shield(idk if ic players so that on purpose), then the timing is also very diffferent

account for the hitlag when you're inputting your fastfall. you can't fastfall whilst in hitlag.

 

[RaynEX]

Yo, Raynex bro, this is 2011 and we shine platform waveland shine pressure now.

Yo, Brookman bro, this is 2011 and we get shieldgrabbed for unsafe pressure now.

I'm pretty sure I saw you post in PP's thread when we were discussing this. Mogwai came in and dropped some frame data. Shine waveland shine can be grabbed or oos aerial'ed'.

 

[Tomacawk]

yo I think I just discovered something that could be reliably great, I just gotta try it again
if you grab fox/falco at medium percents (I did it around 60-80) and they don't di your uthrow, you can jump and hit them with the top of your shine (the spacing that allows you to waveshine them on the ground) and waveland onto the platform into a grab. I finished the kill with uthrow usmash from the lowerp latforms on battlefield
I hope I explained this well enough to be understood, it's conceptually tight and could be very useful
bair/nair may be an easier follow than aerial waveshine grab but it doesn't have as much reward. you get a higher percent uthrow with no platforms to stop your aerial/usmash instead of a bair/nair to ledge guard opportunity where they can recover high easily and trick you

 

[RaynEX]

yo I think I just discovered something that could be reliably great, I just gotta try it again
if you grab fox/falco at medium percents (I did it around 60-80) and they don't di your uthrow, you can jump and hit them with the top of your shine (the spacing that allows you to waveshine them on the ground) and waveland onto the platform into a grab. I finished the kill with uthrow usmash from the lowerp latforms on battlefield
I hope I explained this well enough to be understood, it's conceptually tight and could be very useful
bair/nair may be an easier follow than aerial waveshine grab but it doesn't have as much reward. you get a higher percent uthrow with no platforms to stop your aerial/usmash instead of a bair/nair to ledge guard opportunity where they can recover high easily and trick you

It would definitely work if your opponent survival d.i.s

If you jump -> waveshine -> grab them you would be at the edge of the platform, though. There would be no way for you to run+jump and hit them if they d.i.ed away after the uthrow at that point. So essentially, it would be really cool up until the grab, then d.i. would kick in.

But if all goes according to plan, it would be pretty damn awesome.

 

[KAOSTAR]

then just up throw into a uair if they di off the platform

 

[Wenbobular]

Leffen called me an idiot for not knowing frame data and then someone proved he was doing it wrong
I felt awesome

 

[Sinji]

I kinda got the ganon matchup down pat. wavedash oos if ganon pressures you with his slaps. Pressuring ganon from above will remove most of his options. Double shine after a nair.

 

[Tomacawk]

It would definitely work if your opponent survival d.i.s

If you jump -> waveshine -> grab them you would be at the edge of the platform, though. There would be no way for you to run+jump and hit them if they d.i.ed away after the uthrow at that point. So essentially, it would be really cool up until the grab, then d.i. would kick in.

But if all goes according to plan, it would be pretty damn awesome.

then just up throw into a uair if they di off the platform

I'm not sure that would work but I'm pretty positive that the position of their DI away from set up run off shine turn around bair perfectly, which is even more badass

also, I think it's pretty unlikely that people would DI that combo properly for awhile because they wouldn't recognize they've been grabbed before you uthrow (who the **** predicts that?).

 

[Fernandez]

I kinda got the ganon matchup down pat. wavedash oos if ganon pressures you with his slaps. Pressuring ganon from above will remove most of his options. Double shine after a nair.

imo pressuring ganon from above doesnt really work well, if the ganon just tries to upair you it will most likely trade and you dont want to trade vs ganon cuz you lose in the end, but i mainly think this from playing falco vs ganon, maybe its diffrent with fox but i doubt it =)

 

[unknown522]

I kinda got the ganon matchup down pat. wavedash oos if ganon pressures you with his slaps. Pressuring ganon from above will remove most of his options. Double shine after a nair.

imo pressuring ganon from above doesnt really work well, if the ganon just tries to upair you it will most likely trade and you dont want to trade vs ganon cuz you lose in the end, but i mainly think this from playing falco vs ganon, maybe its diffrent with fox but i doubt it =)

fernandez knows

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ganon is mostly a matter of figuring out his ranges and knowing how close you can get to him before he has to commit to defend himself. Also, you have to know what moves you can punish from which ranges. After you learn that, you can pick your fights and win.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I created a lot of tricks to actually attack the fox or falco and shut down his options instead of just hoping to hit with a fair or upair. There's ways to counter attack on reaction I'm very comfortable with any matchup now because of this. With more experience, I feel like I can see everything.