Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[RaynEX]

Waveshine grab into dsmash is 'okay' near the edge, and at certain percents grab yields no guaranteed follows. Usmash is probably the best option most of the time, or utilt...

Any half-decent Fox main should be able to waveshine Ganon at LEAST twice. That is, if they intend on making use of large stages and exploiting Ganon's shine comboability issues for easy damage. That being said, there isn't a problem with just doing one shine to usmash.

But really, who does that?

 

[Rubyiris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2YXFiqOkWM#t=2m28s

My vs Marth game is very weak currently. I've been playing mostly Fox the last month or so, and this is the main match up that I'm struggling with.

My DD game is weak, so I'm finding it difficult to get a solid dair approach in. The Marth players in my state are all solid players, so nair is decidedly weak against them so I'm trying to stick to dair/spaced bair approaches.

What can I be doing differently?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

to me your biggest 2 problems are ledgeguarding marth, and not making as risky choices against marth.

gotta bair him at the right time when he's recovering. shinebair isn't bad since it covers 2 options for the most part, gotta learn when that powershield trick is gonna work, if it doesn't you can always SH out of it and just grab the ledge.

then just little slop ups+being too risky would get you beat up when he combos, as tai knows how to play marth obv.

 

[Karibola]

You already said what your main problem was, you weren't able to deal with the DD ---> grab game.

 

[Brookman]

@ RUBY: you can start by not FULL JUMPING AT HIM FROM HALF THE STAGE AWAY. There's a big one. Fox is fast but he's not so fast that a player can't simply look watch you move your character towards him. If you must full jump at least space it backwards sometimes. Full jump is slow and easy to react to and Marth's grab/pivot grab are nuts vs. fox's low range. Just count how many times you get grabbed for this maneuver.

You gotta stay in their face and try to bait out dash attacks or attack over their down tilt. Watch out for Fsmash and eat nair alive.


You should try to mess up less in general.


My basic concept of dash dancing vs. dash dancing is dash in dash out dash in dash out wait. . . dash in . . . dash in? Especially vs. marth's dash/wavedash + grab/down tilt/dash attack - you really need to get a feel for your opponent before you start getting hasty with your reads.

Basically, increase your efficiency/ ability to punish. There were lots of easy positions/edge guards that you fudge. I think - judging by this match alone - that Tai is just slightly smarter or at least more patient. Most of the time he just out camps you and you fall into his grab range.

If anything, throw a little percent at them with your laser. Gauge how the react and act accordingly. Position is reset eventually and you can just reset to lasering and again gauge their reaction - lots of players will change up immediately by either being more aggressive or more patient.

Just gotta get your reads, punish hard and not mess up.


Tai was reading you pretty well. As evident in his rush in against your dash dancing late game (see: ~5:30. Basically you're not paying close enough attention. Maybe it's the commentators hooting sandstorm or whatever but dashing is bread and butter so you should learn to mix your dash/wavedash up more. Don't be afraid to get in their face or run by them.

Following that skirmish (and failed edge guard by Tai) you nail a shine but only get up throw up air out of it. Basically. . . this is your opportunity and you need to do more than that. How? That's up to you to figure out but Fox has a whole lot of **** in his arsenal. Anyway, after he fairs you you get stuck on the edge and crack under pressure.


edit: just noticed this: See the yt comment I left on that video from three weeks ago.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Dash dance lasers, he has to approach eventually, or you can just camp him!

 

[Brookman]

I mean you still have to be a smart/experienced player to effectively camp and even then it's not the best strategy ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JVua9I5ZLM&

 

[Vex Kasrani]

If you say so, if the Marth won't approach or is just dash dancing constantly, you can just camp them with lasers.

 

[Divinokage]

Marth is pretty damn quick on the floor, you have to play extra smart vs him as spacies in general.

 

[Deleted member]

I've never really understood why people think fox **** falcon... falcon has way better dd game, way better punishment and dies later. His only problem is edgeguarding but he has a way easier time recovering against fox than say sheik or marth ( SDI shines = gaining height >_> ). Falcon also has more priority than fox unless the falcon spaces incorrectly.

Falco is another story, you need to learn how to play aggressively if you want to handle that matchup... which many ppl suck at.

never seen a post so wrong in my life

 

[Sinji]

In my opinion Marth has the easiest dash dancing in the game. You have to be very smart to avoid his grab (especially space animals)

 

[RaynEX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2YXFiqOkWM#t=2m28s

My vs Marth game is very weak currently. I've been playing mostly Fox the last month or so, and this is the main match up that I'm struggling with.

My DD game is weak, so I'm finding it difficult to get a solid dair approach in. The Marth players in my state are all solid players, so nair is decidedly weak against them so I'm trying to stick to dair/spaced bair approaches.

What can I be doing differently?

A few things unknown and I saw:

-Down throw

-2:41: Full hop nair when Marth is obviously DDing and waiting for you. Its not that bad if he's airborne (i.e. coming up after you on platforms)

-4:15, why?

-4:26, WHY?! Try overshooting grab, SH nairing and starting some kind of pressure, or just running up to his shield and shine JC -> aerial / grab

-4:59, Uthrow uair combos at this percent. I'm not sure why you keep dthrowing.

-5:24, were you trying to CC shine him? Marth is going to space all the time. Don't do it unless you're SURE it will work.

If you say so, if the Marth won't approach or is just dash dancing constantly, you can just camp them with lasers.

I really hate it when people say you need to laser Marth. Lasering and counter-camping is not a definitive answer in the match-up. Out of the characters Fox is 'supposed' to camp, he arguably has the fastest ground speed and the most range. His ability to chase you down using that range, and safely space large disjointed hitboxes, is unparalleled. Not to mention that once he corners you, it usually spells your doom. His dash attack range is monstrous, and has the potential to start a very, very gay series of events involving knockdowns, grabs, and probably fsmash. He can hit dash attack from mid-range by just dashing once and performing it, since it propels him so far forward. If it hits, it ruins your DD spacing (you'll probably be mid-range) AND starts a combo. You could try blocking it, but It's also safe if spaced. Against Marth, if you get single-minded and decide to camp, you usually end up simply cornering yourself.

Most of the Foxes that eviscerate Marth do so because they get lots of grabs, corner Marth, or edge-guard efficiently. I don't think playing defensively facilitates any of this. As Fox you should rarely be making the first move, but running back and lasering is not how you should go about it. Dash dancing out of his range / around his moves is your best bet.

 

[Sinji]

^ Stop spaming the thread. WTF

 

[Sinji]

Any ways, how much frames does foxe's role take up? M2K said that Bowsers role take up 37 frames.

Any advice?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Any ways, how much frames does foxe's role take up? M2K said that Bowsers role take up 37 frames.

Any advice?

31

yes

don't pick bowser

 

[buddy]

I know this sounds pretty demanding and sorta an oversimplification of melee, but I think it would be awesome if some kick-*** dedicated person made a quick summary of how to play all the matchups for fox. At least the ones the more common/difficult ones. I don't really need a guide on how to beat G&W, as I'm sure that if anyone beats me with him they're just way better than me at the game.
Obviously you can't cover everything, but just a general approach to the matchup.
I ask this because I'm at school right now, with a very limited selection of people to play against, and therefore a very limited number of characters I play against.
And if there is already a thread somewhere that does this, could someone point me in that direction?

 

[Sinji]

I know this sounds pretty demanding and sorta an oversimplification of melee, but I think it would be awesome if some kick-*** dedicated person made a quick summary of how to play all the matchups for fox. At least the ones the more common/difficult ones. I don't really need a guide on how to beat G&W, as I'm sure that if anyone beats me with him they're just way better than me at the game.
Obviously you can't cover everything, but just a general approach to the matchup.
I ask this because I'm at school right now, with a very limited selection of people to play against, and therefore a very limited number of characters I play against.
And if there is already a thread somewhere that does this, could someone point me in that direction?

That sounds like a good idea. im having trouble with the iceys matchup. I think its 50:50 for the matchup.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Look at CunningKitsune's guide, it's stickied.

 

[voorhese]

yeah dood, and he knows how to play climbers (trail practice)

 

[Sinji]

Armada's fox play style is unique. He uses uair a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4ug2lcJph4&t=1m13s

 

[FoxLisk]

FH uair ***** falco's who overcommit to shield pressure.

 

[RaynEX]

It also ***** missed techs after nair. I spam that **** all day.

 

[buddy]

Vex you win the prize, CunningKitsune's guide is awesome.
Strange though, I thought I read his entire guide, guess I missed the matchup section.
I'm just a winner.

 

[Wenbobular]

That sounds like a good idea. im having trouble with the iceys matchup. I think its 50:50 for the matchup.

Are you for serious <_< I'm pretty sure Fox is a bad matchup for ICs...

 

[omgwtfToph]

IC's got some tricks yo.

 

[Wenbobular]

Tricks don't beat a better character if he has ways to deal with them <_<

 

[Smasher89]

There´s one thing I´ve had trouble with as ICs, but is also the most fun way to face a Fox that plays that way: Trying to rush ICs by putting ALOT of pressure with multishines, only way of it being viable is being very very fast precice technical but makes the matchup very interesting due to low% kills from both ICs and Fox.
Camping seems to work, until you play against a player that knows how to deal with it, not neccecarely punishing with wobbling but maybe even more dangerous things.

 

[Strong Badam]

wrong

get magus'd

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9111240&postcount=85

I still have much to learn... Thanks for the correction.

In my opinion Marth has the easiest dash dancing in the game. You have to be very smart to avoid his grab (especially space animals)

I prefer to think of the effectiveness of the technique rather than the difficulty, since the effectiveness is what matters at high level play.

 

[ChivalRuse]

ICs vs Fox basically breaks down to who's willing to be more patient.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Whether the Fox misses L-cancels seems to be a larger factor than it should be.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah. But these days Fox players aren't missing l-cancels much.

 

[Brookman]

**** patience. I just shine and up smash the **** out of them.

 

[RaynEX]

**** patience. I just shine and up smash the **** out of them.

All you really need is shine and bair. Once they're seperated its like you're facing two Luigis that lack a combo game. Oh, and one of them is monstrously dilapidated.

edit: Since I'm one of only two mods in the fox forums that can actually organize threads / posts, I'll get around to making that match-up thread we all wanted so desperately.

 

[FoxLisk]

I still have much to learn... Thanks for the correction.

no prob! that's a remarkably little-known fact. go forth and teach

 

[Fernandez]

I cant l cancel vs ice climers(when theyre together) so i just pick a platform lvl and all I do spam shine ->jump on a platform, and fall trought platform shine -> rejump on a platform, when you seperated them just go standard rambo mode then you win.

this probably doesnt work vs good ice climbers tho =X never played one

 

[Brookman]

Learn to fast fall.

 

[Fernandez]

i always fastfall after the aerial and the timing is really different then so i mess up =(
i could practise it vs cpu i guess but there arent any ice climbers in europe anyway so nvm

 

[Strong Badam]

Nair... 12 damage... 5 frames of hitlag?
So just wait about .1 seconds more than usual before you l-cancel against IC's?

 

[Brookman]

fast fall BEFORE you hit their shield. If you can't manage this then you shouldn't be using aerials on their shield. Honestly, no one said using aerials on shield (or at all for that matter) is mandatory for fox. If you are getting punished for something STOP DOING IT. Figure something else out and if you can't then you lose ;]

 

[voorhese]

agreed, isnt dair your safest aerial on them anyway?