Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

Nair opponents shield
fast fall
l-cancel
wait for shield to drop
shine
????
profit


It's not about nair shining perfectly - it's about VARIATION.

 

[Sinji]

There are small windows, depending on the timings of your moves, where you can be grabbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_w6uV1241wo&feature=related


You should try to push the speed of your movement to the max. The game operates at 60 frames a second - you don't need to KNOW the details, but you SHOULD have a good feel for moving at the maximum speed allowable.

Also, don't rely entirely on training your muscle memory BECAUSE!! This game is highly variable. Once you get a grasp of really fast falling through your move and nailing l cancel (the input as well as acting on the first possible frame after the lag is over) you should really try to surprise yourself by how fast you can move.

i notice that mango plays very fast against peach.

I try to balance out my speed when fighting characters like iceys and peach.

 

[Brookman]

Mango plays however he wants to play. As for your comment, I'm not suggesting that you CONSTANTLY move or constantly do anything for that matter. I'm simply saying, when you are moving you should have a grasp on how fast you can legally move in the game.

 

[FoxLisk]

the ganons i've played (who arent like kage level but are solid) tend to jab a lot when they are scared. ive found the best thing to do is like nair their shield and then get out of the way and then next time you come in they expect something like that so they'll try to jab you as you come in. so you run in, DD back and then nair/dair and they whiffed their jab and get hit and then you hit them a lot more times cause you're fox.

also nair crossovers are good, ganon doesnt have a fast option behind him oos.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I really dislike strategies that rely on "most players do ___". Its really good to observe patterns like this in your opponents, but its bad to assume that they will do such a thing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mango's able to set the pace of the match. He's really on a higher level than almost all players at this point.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I just wish he would actually play sometimes. Can't blame a kid for partying, but goddamn it, I miss it when he actually tried. He was nothing short of amazing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Sinji]

I just wish he would actually play sometimes. Can't blame a kid for partying, but goddamn it, I miss it when he actually tried. He was nothing short of amazing.

Smooth Criminal

tru dat. if mango gos puff, thats when you know he's trying.

 

[Brookman]

Mango is but a man. A man exceptionally talented at this game but a man none-the-less

 

[Doser]

So is Batman but that doesn't stop him from wrecking **** all day every day.

 

[JPOBS]

^best response ever

 

[Brookman]

Except for the fact that batman is, in reality, a comic book character and Mango is literally a man.

 

[TemPesT-]

^tell that to christian bale

 

[RaynEX]

Its probably late to jump into this conversation but


Falco v Falcon is 6/4 for Falco.

Fox v Falcon is 55 / 45 for Fox

This is with full bias, but I'd probably say falco for now wins this. I'll probably change my mind later but falco can completely control falcon's movement while falcon has a DD game on fox. Any character with a solid DD game has some method of getting grabs on fox eventually, and the fact that fox's tech roll is significantly worse than falcos (and this is super theory bros) means that falcon will consistently kill fox players off a single grab. Fox also has trouble actually comboing falcon if he doesn't land certain hits; stray nairs and such won't lead to combos 9 times out of 10. For falco on the other hand, if you just land a stray hit its pretty much a free half stock if not a 0-death in super theory bros. Fox's approaches can also be a mixture of CC'dd and DI'd (downairs) so that leads to even more ways to fox getting stuffed. Not to say that fox won't beat falcon, but that the punishment game in fox vs falcon is strictly in falcon's favor in my opinion especially in super theory bros.

The fact that falcon has a consistent way of landing said punishment with DD and basic risk/reward assessment convinces me of this even more. Falco's rolls being harder to follow up as falcon, along with having as good of a punishment game if not better, AND being able to use lasers to avoid one of falcon's most prominent assets (DD) to me would suggest that falco does better than fox.

This is just my most intuitive response to the question, but I'm gonna have to agree with unknown.

Falcon's DD game is neutralized vs. Falco. It has its moments in every match-up EXCEPT this one. Lasers negate its usefulness and give Falco complete control over the match. A single laser is enough to stop a fluid DD game from even starting, and its enough to stop a spaced nair from being a threat. I agree with you in that Falco probably has the most to gain when he hits Falcon. Any move nets you +60% with even the most basic of combos (which are more or less inescapable or lead to an egde-guard). Falco never has to worry about edge-guarding Falcon's predictable, linear recovery because of laser, dair, bair, and fsmash.

In your assessment of the Fox v Falcon match-up, there are a few points I'd like to argue. Firstly, Falcon's punishment game is nowhere near as efficient or damaging as Fox's. When Falcon gets a grab there is ALWAYS guessing involved if you're techchasing with anything besides grab. If you're doing reaction-based re-grabs, that's great - but it does not compare to full stage waveshines to edge-guards, and utilts / usmashes / grabs that flow into each other. If Fox gets a dair -> shine the option tree explodes, and Falcon can only really get out of a 50-60% combo if you **** up techchasing or move selection. When you say Falcon has a consistent way of landing punishment through DD, I simply don't see it. He grabs and then he guesses. Even the best Falcon players guess wrong on the techchase dair sometimes. If anything its Fox that has the simplified punishes. Once you reach the percent where you can CG Falcon, he becomes your personal combo doll.

IMO Fox wins on the edge-guarding front, and in comboing. When Fox gets his DD grab at certain percents he has moves and combos that are guaranteed. The only thing guaranteed Falcon is the re-grab, which he'll have to stop once the percents start adding up.

Falco beats Falcon harder, because of how easily lasers and general priority destroy Falcon's DD and spacing game. Falco dictates the pace of the match from the offset, thus making it MUCH easier for him to land the first hit and get a lead. If he gets knocked down, things MIGHT get dangerous for Falco...but its a stark contrast from when Falco hits Falcon, with anything. If that happens, GG.

 

[Druggedfox]

I agreed with your point about the falco stopping falcons DD and Toph specifically asked about super theory bros. There is actually enough time to plausibly react to any of fox's options upon teching if you have reaction time near the top of human capabilities; yes, the best falcon players do miss things but in super theory bros I would assume falcon would have the tech chasing ability to consistently **** fox with regrabs essentially as long as he wants. If fox ever actually used a tech roll, falcon could knee off reaction. As I said in the original post, I think fox would have a hard time consistently landing combos considering falcon would be DI'ing correctly on almost everything; stray hits don't land fox combos, and DI'ing away on his up moves can often get you out of the standard cheap fox stuff, while there are obvious % ranges where, yeah, falcon can't do anything.

That said, great assessment; anybody who wants a good read on the *actual* matchup look at that =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Landing a clean Dair or Shine on Falcon is complicated by his long range, priority, and constant jumping. I really think people underestimate how good Falcon can be about avoiding a clean Shine or Dair; it's not like those moves (and corresponding strategies) fare well vs his normal defensive strategies. Also, s2j at the very least is extremely good at SDIing the Dair even when he is grounded. Dair is... very overrated as a combo starter, I think.

Raynex omits that a lot of positions allow Falcon to toss an Uair or Knee into your general tech zone and cover all options. The guessing games aren't really as hard as people make it out to be because the assumption that you always have 4 options (non-tech/stand/roll1/roll2) is not always true and regularly challenged by things like platforms and stage size. That you have to DI Falcons throws away to avoid the autocombo ('cuz DI in = autocombo) also feeds into this somewhat. Stomp and others have been used to cover way more tech options than the 1 or 2 they're advertised to cover.

Otherwise I agree with Bernie.



edit:

All Falco players bitch about how their combos are susceptible to DI but they're far more guaranteed than anything Fox has. A lot of Fox's primary combo starters are moves that are vulnerable to crouch cancel, Shine doesn't work on airborne foes, and his Dair is a slew of hits instead of one solid hit. Consequently, Fox's combos are definitely more prone to nonsense than Falco's. This omits SDI vs Uair and other things that can screw Fox out of follows.

 

[Sinji]

This may sound like a random question but can you thunders combo pikachu?

 

[FoxLisk]

falco players ***** about DI? that's silly... it's so easy with falco

sinji: yeah, but only at low %. he has low weight/fall speed so the jab stops being a reset earlier than on fox/falco. if he even ASDI's up the jab is probably not a reset near zero.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i know this has been asked/posted before, but can someone point me towards a match where the fox is playing the foxfalcon matchup the closest to right? someone pointed out a ZoSo match for this, i'd prefer something else

i also need help with uthrow in this matchup, i don't know when they can jump out of my grab[something like if they don't DI the grab they can jump out of it?] and i don't get what followups are best given the percents you u-throw them at.

 

[Palpi]

aren't lucky and cactuar both great against falcon?

 

[Lovage]

at certain percents, to uthrow usmash falcon, you gotta be really really fast and precise or he can jump out.

at certain percents i think he can jump out for free though (under 15ish?)


try it a lot against a good falcon and you'll get a feel for it

and don't look for a video where the matchup is played closest to right, cuz ur gonna see dramatically different games against any of the good falcons as they all have unique styles. gotta play to the style of your opponent if you wanna win (save certain ppl)

 

[Brookman]

So ya, how about that down throw?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Most Fox players don't really have the reaction time to effectively use D-throw like Cactuar does.

 

[Sinji]

I often times dthrow to put the other player on pressure. I never missed a tech chase after it.

on platforms i dsmash after the Dthrow.

 

[Brookman]

I mean, you don't even have to catch the tech chase there is a lot of pressure and psychology to be applied of the missed follow up anyway. Chaining down throw is ridiculous and you can turn it into, essentially, a 50/50 at/near the edge.


/rant rant rant.


f throw people towards the edge at low percents can be used to set up similar ****- especially on f/f/f. I'm ****ing around with it at the moment. Down throw is stupidly good vs. puff.

Also, back throwing people onto platforms.

I'm working on integrating that mid air shine > air dodge down. It's all about how low the shine is but I'm having solid results. It's also making my platform wavelands better (??)


At best, it's fairly similar to wavelanding onto a platform. At worst it's a really slow invincible landing with slightly more land lag.


Also ****ing around with forward as a way to catch stray techs and other random things. If I attend a tournament this weekend I'll definitely fux with them in money matches and **** and see if I have success vs. better players/people I play less commonly.

 

[JPOBS]

my general "feeling" of how upthrow works vs falcon.

at 0 to~30ish percents, on no DI you can uthrow upsmash
between like 5-15% if they DI hard away they can jump before you can do anything i think.
between 20-40 if they DI you have to be super quick with a nair and try to follow up. if they di away you have to tech chase and if they di in/up just do whatever
around 40-50ish on no DI uptilt -> moveset.
around 40-50ish you can get a mini chaingrab with a few regrabs if they DI

these percents are just estimations i just judge by the height they get sent from the throw and roll with it.

after midpercent just do whatever looks like it will combo from the throw. i usually uptilt and then bair them offstage. i also do janky things like nair->fsmash when they DI the throw. Lucky likes to Nair->grab which is pretty baller.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff has horrible techs that take her nowhere. She also dies from U-tilt > Uair at like 45. I feel she's the exception to the D-throw rule because of this. I've considered trying it vs Falcon because he also has slow tech rolls and a poor shield game to fall back on if Fox is too slow. However, beyond those two characters, I strongly suggest doing pretty much any other throw. They're easier to be consistent with and usually better.

The aforementioned B-throw > Platform is really good and (IMO) underutilized. F-throw puts people off the edge well or near the edge; this limits their tech options, which can obviously be good. Throwing people off the stage is obviously good too.

D-throw on platforms isn't a real argument because you can DI off the side with no tech and avoid follow with most characters. That said, it might be worth doing it once to check if the opponent knows of it; similar to attempting a D-throw Dair regrab with Ice Climbers on Doc or something.



At the edge vs many characters I would think it would be wiser to throw them off the level rather than 50/50 with a screwy throw.

 

[Brookman]

<3 KK. You only like to throw people off the stage cause you play sheik ;P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ha. I often refrain from throwing people off the level if I think I can do a guaranteed combo that will send them off eventually. I'm terrible at gimping...

Especially with Sheik :/



Let's play soon Brookman =D

 

[Brookman]

I'd love to, we definitely only got to play like 2 matches at ROM and you weren't even warmed up :O/fox dittod me :D

 

[Sinji]

m2k gimps all the time. But people are starting to realize his play style and punishing it.

Like Dr.pp for example.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ You are half correct.

 

[JPOBS]

i hate Dthrow cuz the no tech mixup screws everything up. its easy if they tech either left or right but notech->getup attack messes with me.

 

[Brookman]

expecting a tech in place covers no tech. Lrn2rctbttr I do agree that not teching is usually the best option.

When I play vs. falcon's I will alwasys miss my first tech. It immediately ****s with them. Unless they're that good ;]

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this is really well written and hilarious:


http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/18/t1629965-in-depth-analysis-of-rebecca-blacks-friday/

 

[FoxLisk]

bthrow -> platform is the best thing

but you guys cant start implementing it so dont listen to KK. it's my ****. dont steal my ****. =

 

[Druggedfox]

Aren't there certain %s where falcon is trapped with upthrow upsmash; his jump will come out but you'll upsmash him before he can effectively do anything? Those seem to be really useful for the times you can't pull off upthrow nair at the lower %s

 

[JPOBS]

^ yea but thats only vs his no di. if he DIs, upsmash doesn't have the range, and you're stuck in the throw animation too long to nair before he jumps. alternatively you can just wait for the jump and kill him on the way down.

 

[Brookman]

why are you guys still up throwing falcon?? just f throw/down throw till he's at the edge then back throw. Seriously. If you get the grab why in the world would you waste it on up throw?

 

[Sinji]

^ I agree. I would understand utrowing falco, but Falcon is a different story.

 

[unknown522]

70-30 is a stretch but i agree with him on falco being the hardest.

I'd like to hear your reasoning on the mu though

late reply.

Uhhhh. I've written about this too many times. I'm gonna just do the shorter version:

- lasers make falcon falco's ***** whereas fox's don't stun. They completely shut down falcon's DD game, which is mostly what makes falcon a good character. It's really gay that falco can easily take that away, while still having stage control most of the time. Falcon has 2 tricks to get by lasers that are both pretty see-through and can be countered by 2 simple adjustments:

1. falcon jumps over the mid/low laser and tries to aerial falco. Or he comes down from a platform. These get countered by shooting a high laser. If falcon tries to approach, he gets combo'd off the laser too.

or

2. He tries to raptor boost under the laser. Luckily for falco, he has very little lag when he lands from shooting his laser, so he can always shield first or hit falcon before getting hit. Even when shooting high lasers sadly.

I mean, falcon can PS the lasers but it does him no good since he has to stop dashing to do so. His grab range also sucks.

- combos are ridiculously easy to do and set up on falcon. Most of his combo starters are guaranteed to start combos, whereas fox's can get negated randomly just because falcon is jumping and/or just hit out of the air, which will lead to you getting punished if you try to follow up (or sometimes even if you don't try to follow up). What also sucks for fox is the moves that get negated by simply jumping, are also the moves that beat his CC. Your alternative moves can get CC'd for a long time (like 0-75%). Even still, if you hit a n-air and catch their jump, the most you will get out of it a lot of times is either a 50/50, or a shine. Said shine gets you nothing, because falcon is in the air still. Other moves are too slow to hit a lot of times as well. Fox's grab is great, but short ranged. Also falcon being one of those characters that can jump out of your throw combos or magically CC while being slightly in the air (don't say it's stupid because I've seen it happen a lot). So fox needs to have a grounded falcon who's not attacking basically to start his good combos. Which are of course his waveshine-related combos. If you hit a waveshine, that should be falcon's stock though.

edit: Not to forget that fox's d-air can get SDI'd and can randomly make you have to 50/50 which way they go. Shine is also hard to land on a moving opponent as well.

But anyways, back to falco combos. They are not hard to do whatsoever and his combos work about the same as they do vs other spacies if not better, because the d-air -> shine loop takes longer to knock down falcon since he is heavier, which makes it even easier to get edgeguard setups since you can end combos at a later percent, or if they DI off the stage early, then that means they can't tech falco's d-air. Fox's shine is incredibly stupid though for gimps.

Falco's shine also doesn't get conveniently beaten by falcon randomly being in the air and is one of the main combo starters. Let's not forget that falco can actually do the same combo every single time to falcon, so he doesn't have to be creative, or really compensate for DI or anything. Falcon's combos also aren't guaranteed on falco and take some reaction time/guessing/trapping to pull off. Both fox and falco die at relatively the same percent in the matchup. It's pretty easy for falcon to edgeguard/gimp both of them (I guess fox's fire may get you lucky sometimes?).

- Edgeguarding is really easy for both characters. But falco definitely has the better edgeguards. You can make lasers negate falcon kick if he tries to get his jump back. If he goes low, then lasers can hold him in the air longer making it easier to set up a kill. If he goes over falco, then falco can still combo him back off. Also his f-smash being stronger than fox's is good too. Still, a lot of times falco can skip that whole process, because his jumps are so high, and he can cut off falcon in the air anyway. If there's platforms and falcon goes over fox, he can sometimes land an edge-cancel, or position himself in a way that fox can't hit him with heavy moves to knock him back off. Can't be waveshined because of being on/edgecanceling off a platform. It's also harder to kill falcon off the top because of his weight + fall speed.

- Falcon's moves can beat both fox's and falco's for the most part, but a slight mis-space makes falcon's moves lose to/trade with falco's d-air. Also, his moves can't beat falco's laser, so it's also like a ranged-move in itself.



Got lazy. Sorry.