Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[trahhSTEEZY]

uhm shine out of shield is great when dealing with spacie pressure, thats a technique i doubt you'll master very quickly

 

[Sinji]

Iv'e been studing the match up against shiek. I noticed that whenever sheik Di's foxes ugrab you do a reverse bair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aneh5askQ7s&t=0m36s

 

[buddy]

oh yeah. thats a technique that i'm still working on.
probably gonna be a while....

 

[FoxLisk]

buffer roll is good to use sometimes but gets you ***** other times, shine oos is really good to learn.

a good rule of thumb that you shouldnt follow too closely because being predictable sucks is the following:

if the falco hits your shield high with his aerial, shine oos. this gives you a relatively large amount of leeway so it's not as hard to time.

if he hits low, he's probably going to do the second aerial early so you can just roll out because he won't be able to follow you as easily.

 

[buddy]

just so i'm totally clear on the technique, shine oos is shield>jump>shine before you leave the ground/just after you leave the ground.
correct?
if so, should i be able to get the shine before i leave the ground? or is it cool if im in the air a little bit?

 

[JPOBS]

its cool if your in the air a tiny bit, not many players, even great ones, stay grounded.

other options are roll, Upsmashes oos, wavedash oos, jump oos, or.....grab :o

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

just so i'm totally clear on the technique, shine oos is shield>jump>shine before you leave the ground/just after you leave the ground.
correct?
if so, should i be able to get the shine before i leave the ground? or is it cool if im in the air a little bit?

the ultimate form of Shine OOS involves not leaving the ground, but honestly as long as you hit them it doesn't really matter how high you are off the ground before the shine comes out..

being air'd makes things safer probably, since your not close to them incase you miss,, but grounded gives you more followup time/room to see how they'll react to being shined.

i doubt you'll stay grounded for ages. just learn to jump out of shine and land quickly so you can continue to **** up the flaco/fawks

 

[Sinji]

just so i'm totally clear on the technique, shine oos is shield>jump>shine before you leave the ground/just after you leave the ground.
correct?
if so, should i be able to get the shine before i leave the ground? or is it cool if im in the air a little bit?

I get ***** when jumping oos. You can either shine oos or roll oos.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I get ***** when jumping oos. You can either shine oos or roll oos.

no, he's saying jump because you have to jump out of shield to shine.

can't just do shield > shine

 

[RaynEX]

Buffered rolls and sidesteps, shine oos, and usmash oos are Fox's only options to beat space animal shield pressure. Buffered anything is great, as long as you perform it after your opponent's shine hits your shield. If you block a dair/nair and try to do anything afterwards, you lose.The most rewarding option would be usmash oos and the easiest to perform, buffer roll. Shine oos is that rare combination of both highly effective and not technically demanding. Learn it, love it.


SHINE OOS:

Even the best foxes have trouble doing shine oos (grounded) consistently. There are a few things you can do to sidestep this technical barrier, and continue chasing your opponent after the knockdown to resume pressure. If there are platforms directly above you, waveland in the direction you knocked your opponent and give chase. This is MUCH easier than trying to waveshine oos(hield) on a punish.

Sometimes platforms aren't always available for you to use though, so if you're on flatland you'll have to settle for SH shine oos -> DJ -> fastfall -> chase.

But be careful! If Marth blocks the shine, for example, he can SH fair out of shield and clip your DJ on the way down. Whenever you are unsure about whether the shine will hit or not, DJ backwards out of your shine to avoid retaliation. Again, if platforms are nearby use them to your advantage! The shine oos is less about getting a hit and more about getting you out of really bad situations. If Falco's shine hits during shield pressure, you are taking 50-60% damage off either good or bad combos. That's just how Falco works.

If you manage to shine oos and escape the pressure, don't ALWAYS dive back into the fray immediately. Use that space you've created to distance yourself from the 1 frame combo starter and formulate a plan of attack. This goes for all match-ups IMO. The breathing room really helps stabilize the match, and hands you back a few seconds of control. We all know how vital control is, especially against Falco.

Oh, and shine oos is great near the edge. It punishes everything and knocks your opponent off. **** grab lol

 

[JPOBS]

yo grab is legit don't even hate. (mostly kidding)

but for real i hate it when you shine oos vs a falco and they accidentally tech cuz they were L-cancelling lol pretty much ruins whatever techchase you could have got.

but when im playing as falco, that **** is so cash

 

[weon - X]

raynex advice is the best

 

[RaynEX]

yo grab is legit don't even hate. (mostly kidding)

but for real i hate it when you shine oos vs a falco and they accidentally tech cuz they were L-cancelling lol pretty much ruins whatever techchase you could have got.

but when im playing as falco, that **** is so cash

When they tech the shine oos, the momentum from the initial knockback makes them slide so far away. By the time you land, you can usmash and trade/beat their dair approach, or WD back and punish it. I know what you mean though, it gets frustrating when a clean punish doesn't directly transition into a clean follow-up.

raynex advice is the best

The great weon-x has spoken

 

[Divinokage]

I've seen A LOT of this recently vs mostly everyone.. DJing close to the ledge.. I think this might be a bad habit from a lot of people.. does anyone else do that? Because if you do you'll get punished and die lol.

 

[FoxLisk]

kage, close to the edge in what circumstance? like, to escape rpessure when your back is to the ledge, or as a clumsy form of pressure when your opponent is in that position?

also, raynex, very good rundown... my favourite part was that you called it "flatland." been a hot minute since i heard that term

 

[Divinokage]

I don't know I just see a lot of people do that no matter the circumstance.

 

[JPOBS]

What does everyone think about Upsmashing after taking a laser?

you know falcos like to do laser->laser->approach shenanigans. how do you guys feel about just upsmashing as he's coming in. especially at low percents when a trade isnt so so bad.

inb4 mixups.

 

[Druggedfox]

Great idea if you can get it out fast enough; I'm convinced that if the falco is close enough with the laser and then moves asap afterwards sometimes you can't get out the upsmash which sucks. Trading upsmash with falco's nair/dairs is almost always a great idea

@Kage

I've definitely noticed what you mean; ironically, I notice it most when people play ganon and fox. Idk why ganons do it so much, but its really easy to catch them DJing or jumping OoS or something. Fox... idk hes broken so you can do whatever you want with him

 

[Divinokage]

Ya.. Opponent's DJs, you punish.. he has no jump.. faceroll edgeguard lol.

 

[unknown522]

What does everyone think about Upsmashing after taking a laser?

you know falcos like to do laser->laser->approach shenanigans. how do you guys feel about just upsmashing as he's coming in. especially at low percents when a trade isnt so so bad.

inb4 mixups.

that **** is too risky.

When quebec came down before ROM 3, I played vs Vwins and PKM as falco and they did that crap sometimes. It worked on me like twice, but then every other time they tried it, that basically = -1 stock for them. Even if I just shielded it after the laser, then it was still pretty much -1 stock for them (or assloads of damage).

I think it's fine if you limit how many times you use it, or if you're just facing shiz; because he runs into that **** a lot.

edit:

Great idea if you can get it out fast enough; I'm convinced that if the falco is close enough with the laser and then moves asap afterwards sometimes you can't get out the upsmash which sucks.

I left that out too.

Ya.. Opponent's DJs, you punish.. he has no jump.. faceroll edgeguard lol.

yeah, that **** sucks

 

[RaynEX]

I've seen A LOT of this recently vs mostly everyone.. DJing close to the ledge.. I think this might be a bad habit from a lot of people.. does anyone else do that? Because if you do you'll get punished and die lol.

Come on Kage, you know only bad players double jump near the edge for no reason. It's such a blatantly bad decision its not worth discussing. It goes without saying that DJs are like low tiers. Good in certain ways, but you can't be using that **** all the time.

kage, close to the edge in what circumstance? like, to escape rpessure when your back is to the ledge, or as a clumsy form of pressure when your opponent is in that position?

also, raynex, very good rundown... my favourite part was that you called it "flatland." been a hot minute since i heard that term

Thanks! Its been a hot minute since I've heard hot minute haha

What does everyone think about Upsmashing after taking a laser?

you know falcos like to do laser->laser->approach shenanigans. how do you guys feel about just upsmashing as he's coming in. especially at low percents when a trade isnt so so bad.

inb4 mixups.

It's great as long as you watch your spacing. The farther away Falco is when he SH dairs, the less likely you are to interrupt it. Missing would also suck.

I'm not going to lie...turning your back, taking the laser, and utilting is arguably better. If only it worked.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya well here in montreal at least and im sure in Toronto too.. all players below us are bad lol. I've actually caught Bam FH with my own FH Fair, it's so good loll. (I'm guessing he wanted to dair or something)

Edit: This is why we need to play each other more.. well.. Jason said he has friday off last week of April.. so do you think we can drop by then for Friday/weekend maybe? That would be sick.

 

[Sinji]

Buffered rolls and sidesteps, shine oos, and usmash oos are Fox's only options to beat space animal shield pressure. Buffered anything is great, as long as you perform it after your opponent's shine hits your shield. If you block a dair/nair and try to do anything afterwards, you lose.The most rewarding option would be usmash oos and the easiest to perform, buffer roll. Shine oos is that rare combination of both highly effective and not technically demanding. Learn it, love it.


SHINE OOS:

Even the best foxes have trouble doing shine oos (grounded) consistently. There are a few things you can do to sidestep this technical barrier, and continue chasing your opponent after the knockdown to resume pressure. If there are platforms directly above you, waveland in the direction you knocked your opponent and give chase. This is MUCH easier than trying to waveshine oos(hield) on a punish.

Sometimes platforms aren't always available for you to use though, so if you're on flatland you'll have to settle for SH shine oos -> DJ -> fastfall -> chase.

But be careful! If Marth blocks the shine, for example, he can SH fair out of shield and clip your DJ on the way down. Whenever you are unsure about whether the shine will hit or not, DJ backwards out of your shine to avoid retaliation. Again, if platforms are nearby use them to your advantage! The shine oos is less about getting a hit and more about getting you out of really bad situations. If Falco's shine hits during shield pressure, you are taking 50-60% damage off either good or bad combos. That's just how Falco works.

If you manage to shine oos and escape the pressure, don't ALWAYS dive back into the fray immediately. Use that space you've created to distance yourself from the 1 frame combo starter and formulate a plan of attack. This goes for all match-ups IMO. The breathing room really helps stabilize the match, and hands you back a few seconds of control. We all know how vital control is, especially against Falco.

Oh, and shine oos is great near the edge. It punishes everything and knocks your opponent off. **** grab lol

Thanks for the advice. I feel more confident about falco's shield pressure.

 

[Brookman]

if you're airborn you can just double jump airdodge down. It's good, especially on FD

 

[Palpi]

One of my biggest flaws in my game is how much I DJ...I do it alot less with platforms though...hm

 

[JPOBS]

I double jump ALL THE TIME in doubles.

idk what it is, but doubles makes me jump like hell lol

 

[Palpi]

CAUSE YOU SCURRED!

caps

 

[Divinokage]

Less DJs more Shffls. =D

 

[Sinji]

I know that you punish sheik after her up b, but suppose she gets back on the stage without using her up b. What should I do? Any advice?

 

[RaynEX]

If she airdodges on you can ledge-hop past her and bair. Or you could hit forward on the stick, get up as if you were covering the vanish, and punish normally.

When Sheik is falling from above, and it's clear to you that she can make it back onto the stage without her up+b, GET OFF THE EDGE. Your priority is now to get beneath her. If the Sheik goes anywhere on stage, you'll already be there, and if she tries going back to the edge you can intercept with bair / ftilt / dash attack / fsmash / etc

Pay attention to your opponent's method of recovery and react based on the limited options they have. Essentially, you should have a general idea in your head of how the edge-guard should play out before it happens. That's how big of an advantage grabbing the edge vs. Sheik is.

 

[Smasher89]

Can anyone recomend /link me a set of a good technical (shinehappy) fox that beats cfs?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

edit- jk thought you said IC's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHb-8BczTQ i dunno i can't think of many shinehappy fox vs falcon matches.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Why would you shine when you can just nair?

 

[Smasher89]

Faster and also ungrabable? But maybe nair shine is better in some way to put more pressure in? Wants to really learn how to pressure a Falcon so that runnaway strategies wont work as well as it has until now against me :/

But yea I guess I meant "heavy pressure" or something more like that, watching the lovage vs s2j set currently.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the more i play fox vs falcon, the more i realize that shine is one of the more dangerous moves in the match-up. I find that the best strategy is to space with nair (as in, hit with your tippy toes) and bair any approach falcon does.

 

[Smasher89]

Yea, I´ve noticed that alot of foxes get grabbed imidieatly after they miss a shine, but double shine (or shine, jump shine) should make that avoidable and still a beneficial situation due to the high pressure =)

Also, how does shine upsmash work, is it allways guarantied?
Also shine wd after jab?

 

[Sinji]

Im still unsure about the shine> upsmash with one frame. Any advice?

 

[Lovage]

nair shine isn't that good against falcon cuz he can jump over ur shine and stomp oos.

it's good in certain situations so your best bet is to mix it in sparingly with your nair -> crossup bair shield pressure



though the whole goal of this fanciness is to stay mobile enough to space urself outside of grab range, space urself so you have time to react to an aerial OOS, and space urself so you can react to a roll (you don't gotta punish him directly out of his roll, forcing him in his shield again is good enuff, by this point he'll probably make a mistake and you can hit him)

Yea, I´ve noticed that alot of foxes get grabbed imidieatly after they miss a shine, but double shine (or shine, jump shine) should make that avoidable and still a beneficial situation due to the high pressure =)

Also, how does shine upsmash work, is it allways guarantied?
Also shine wd after jab?

ya it works if u do it right, use it when they miss a tech and are far enough away that you have to do a full dash to get to them, this is more likely to happen after you use WEIRD MOVES like ftilt, weak bair, weak nair etc. cuz they're harder to tech for noob players

Im still unsure about the shine> upsmash with one frame. Any advice?

sinji post LOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Im still unsure about the shine> upsmash with one frame. Any advice?

sinji you need to make your posts more.... detailed or something. you're "unsure about shine upsmash with one frame"[not too sure what you mean by that also], but you're not telling us what you want advice for at all

 

[Druggedfox]

Uh I think waveshine jab is an awful choice if you're going for consistency with punishes and its more one of those flashy/ineffective things that used to be done back when people got ***** by waveshine-->jab a lot =P

I mean, reverse uptilt, upsmash, grab (if you can get a nair afterwards), nair even are all better than jab if you're going for punishes in pretty much any situation