Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PB&J]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IeBcDY9nLg

m2k ****** me in fox dittos

 

[omgwtfToph]

is "Pc homeboy" the name, or was lovage trying to say "thats the Pc, homeboy"

like westcoast calls the nair->shine->retreating nair "DC homeboy" right? or is it just DC?

lol semantics

sigh

faith in humanity dropped

 

[JPOBS]

lol toph, y u mad tho?

 

[omgwtfToph]

*express incompetence at deciphering everyday cool person lingo*

*try to make up for it with a witty nerd quote from the internet*

lololol

 

[JPOBS]

excuse me for not being up to date on whatever's hot in the streets these days, in a region i don't even live in

excuse me for failing to distinguish what is otherwise uninformative text as being a name instead of way of speech

 

[omgwtfToph]

no, i'm pretty sure "homeboy" is not west coast specific vernacular

but then again

Location: Hyatt Hotel, singing the pokemon song. u mad?

that explains it

 

[JPOBS]

indeed.

in any case, we play a game where "azen dashing" and "scar jumping" are common terms. Im sorry if "pc homeboy" was cause for confusion :/

 

[KAOSTAR]

lovage was merely implying that the nair reverse pivot (wtf? reverse lol) that trahh was sooo proud of was in fact a pc walk off, and not a pivot at all. I haven't seen the video so I could be wrong, but alot of technically misfortunate players () make that mistake. After an aerial u go into a walk...if u slide off a surface without dashing momentum then it in no way can be a pivot, homeboy.

 

[Tomacawk]

fox is a cool character. dash cancel dtilts to pre-epmt techs and possibly continue combos are ****
especially at that perfect percent where all di leads to uair and it kills

 

[Lovage]

yah that wasn't a pivot
sorry to break ur heart LOL




<3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Toph is such a prick lol

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Toph is such a prick lol

And you're just huggable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol thanks for clearing that up i guess, it wasnt on purpose as i said anyway.

 

[Tomacawk]

smooth move-fox trot (at the end of your fox trot) pivot fade in the same direction bair
interesting applications-shield pressure to hit a low bair to shine and keep yourself safe
combo finishers instead of shffl nair
any others?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Why cant you just pivot at the end of your dash length? does it not reach or something?


and shane does a nice upthrow dj(?) pivot bair that gets with your DI sometimes if ur expecting uair

 

[Strong Badam]

Every character has a specific window they can dash in the opposite direction during their dash. Sheik's sucks, for example, while Ganondorf's and Bowser's are amazing. I suppose I should eventually find that out for everyone, but I don't wanna.

KAOSTAR: In that case I'd probably Dash -> Jump -> Shine turnaround -> DJ Bair... I do pivot bairs on occasion though during lower uthrow combo chains. It's priiii good

logical implies planned. i doubt they had any logical reasoning behind 'momentum stacking'

Why would it work like it does unless it was intended? Seems far too specific to be unintended, especially with how it makes Ganondorf's downsmash work. Whether or not double shining itself working the way it does was intended is a different matter, however.

 

[buddy]

I hate to actually ask what buttons you guys press for techniques...but I just gotta ask it.
When you shine oos, what do you press for the jump?

I GOTTA KNOW

 

[Brookman]

I slide my thumb from Y to B.

short hop/jump with Y (occasionally I will use the control stick)

wavedash with R.

L cancel with L.

I do most of my aerials with the A button.


Everything in this game has a very specific timing. The most important thing for a new player to learn is muscle memory for those timings.

For example, jumping takes Q frames to leave the ground, then it tkes R frames before you can fast fall, S frames till you should input the L cancel, T frames for the L cancel to finish. Then you're back in your neutral position and are free to do whatever you feel like.

 

[buddy]

Ah Y makes sense. I'm gonna give that a try as soon as I'm out of class. Thanks.

Also, Deathnote FTW.

 

[RaynEX]

I hate to actually ask what buttons you guys press for techniques...but I just gotta ask it.
When you shine oos, what do you press for the jump?

I GOTTA KNOW

I jump out of shield with Y. Imo, its proximity to the B button makes it one of the easiest buttons to use for shine oos.

 

[voorhese]

yeah for sure, cuz A is in the way if you use x, and x is further away

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I hate to actually ask what buttons you guys press for techniques...but I just gotta ask it.
When you shine oos, what do you press for the jump?

I GOTTA KNOW

lol, im probably the weirdest about it since i use the analog stick for stuff, i never did up until recently, since i realized how fast you can do aerials since your thumb doesn't have to leave the A button.

for shine-bair OOS, i do up, down, up,[down again if i want to waveshine instead of bair]on the analog, which i almost never ever messup. might sound confusing.

and for like a quick *** sh nair oos, i flick the analog stick up while in shield.

for everything else i use X.

Why would it work like it does unless it was intended? Seems far too specific to be unintended, especially with how it makes Ganondorf's downsmash work. Whether or not double shining itself working the way it does was intended is a different matter, however.

but i don't see why they WOULD add the feature. like, how often do A moves hit more than once that fast in a SSBM match, especially when they expected everyone to play the game so much slower? just seems like it woulda been easier not to add something they figured no1 would notice at all.

i personally think it's just a result of the way the engine/everything else was made

though again, this is all opinion, don't take me too serious on this topic

 

[Strong Badam]

but i don't see why they WOULD add the feature. like, how often do A moves hit more than once that fast in a SSBM match, especially when they expected everyone to play the game so much slower? just seems like it woulda been easier not to add something they figured no1 would notice at all.

i personally think it's just a result of the way the engine/everything else was made

though again, this is all opinion, don't take me too serious on this topic

Places where it'd work:
Sheik's Up-Smash doublehit (Possibly; it'd hit frame 10 so IDK?)
Peach's Down-Smash multihit (see above; hits frame 10, but I think I see this happen actually)
Samus' Screw Attack (?! I suppose it's to connect the first to the rest since she moves up pretty quickly?)
and double shining.

It's possible they implemented it to make Samus' Screw Attack work. *shrug*
But I definitely think you're underestimating the intent of a lot of Melee's coding. Melee's engine & physics are wayyyy too complicated for the game's competitive depth & speed to have been a complete accident. At least, in my opinion. Some of Sakurai's reflections after creating Brawl also state it as the "sharpest' in the series, and he recollects spending hours upon hours, being deprived of sleep, working on Melee. Didn't mention anything like that about Brawl, lol.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i dunno as much as i constantly want to believe it was on purpose, given that the game still remains to be "accidentally" amazing in terms of skill/competition, i still don't think the depth & speed were intentional..i mean maybe the speed but i feel the speed was just that generation of game speeds, kinda like MvC2? it was supposed to be somewhat fast, but no where near as fast as the speed people play it at it's metagame.

also the gap from n64 smash to melee seemed like a much more difficult gap to break in comparison to brawl from melee..so i could understand the deprived sleep thing then, though who knows if he was stressed about other stuff or had a really busy lifestyle at the time, im sure he worked hard on brawl regardless of the sleep deprive thing.

i still don't get why they made simple **** like fox's SH so hard to do consistently

i feel there's so many weird coincidences in the game that make me think it was meant to be deep

..like how fox/falco are so beastly offensively but can also be wrecked on when someone starts a combo on them, especially by the crappier char's.

also stuff like falco having a beastly offense, but as for recovery he's embarrassing, same with falcon.

and then fox having a moveset that even without the tricks (lcancelling,wdashing) he's insanely hard to handle, but he's known as the best [gotta work hard to play the best character]

there's load of other things that i think about this kinda stuff, but those things remind me right away

but in the end of it all, i still think sakurai would've admitted things were meant to be this deep/complex if he actually meant it. ofcourse melee is the 'sharpest' but that doesnt imply it's depth/complexity, that coulda just meant it was faster than the other 2[which is obvious], and that button inputs like short hopping had quicker timing.

 

[Strong Badam]

what? MvC2 was made by Capcom, which tailors its games to competitive gameplay and has for years.

 

[Sinji]

I have a question. I may be blind but im not sure if lovage waveshine>upsmash or shine>upsmash.
Did he?
2:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHb-8BczTQ&feature=feedu

 

[Beat!]

Looks like shine-upsmash.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

what? MvC2 was made by Capcom, which tailors its games to competitive gameplay and has for years.

i'm not referring to the competitive part.. i'm referring to the speed, regardless of if they tailored to competitive play. i know they didn't expect anyone to play as fast as they did in mvc2, same with melee. both newer versions of these games[and many other older competitive games] are slower. i'm basically trying to say that the speed of melee coulda just been the 'norm' for that era of gaming.

i was just using mvc as an example that most games in general seemed to be faster then, until companies started catering to a much larger audience.

btw it's def shine usmash sinji. lovage is one of the few better foxes i see utilize shine-usmash in tournyplay somewhat often.

lovage i cant wait to watch all these matches :3 especially you vs luck.

 

[voorhese]

shine upsmash is better than upsmash....it comes out in 1 frame (the shine), and comboes...so its perfect for tech chasing

 

[TemPesT-]

do i play vs samus right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEHyM41F4Oo&feature=relmfu

any help or critique welcome.

 

[Tomacawk]

do i play vs samus right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEHyM41F4Oo&feature=relmfu

any help or critique welcome.

I will critique your videos this weekend...school johns and stuff

 

[Lovage]

shine upsmash is better than upsmash....it comes out in 1 frame (the shine), and comboes...so its perfect for tech chasing

yep pretty much

also it does 5% more damage so your usmashes will kill a lot earlier. i think a lotta people are gonna get more familiar with this technique over time and it'll be more bread and butter.

only real limitation on it is the fact that it can only really be done out of a full running dash. so for small spaces ur still gonna have to just use JC usmash.

there's a few other properties of shine usmash as well you might notice if you use it a lot. such as if you use it against someone shielding right on an edge, often times the shine will push them off causing the usmash to hit.




--


also probably the biggest reason it's good for punishing missed techs is because shine starts up so fast, it gives you more time to think "ok did they really miss the tech, ok they did, ok now i shine usmash.) right before they hit the ground you can start running at them, wait for them to miss the tech, wait another second so ur totally sure they missed it, and THEN shine usmash. if you were just using usmash you'd have to be a bit more confident in your reactions.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edited for taste

 

[omgwtfToph]

also probably the biggest reason it's good for punishing missed techs is because shine starts up so fast, it gives you more time to think "ok did they really miss the tech, ok they did, ok now i shine usmash.) right before they hit the ground you can start running at them, wait for them to miss the tech, wait another second so ur totally sure they missed it, and THEN shine usmash. if you were just using usmash you'd have to be a bit more confident in your reactions.

I actually never thought about it that way. i gotta give shine usmash more of a try :D

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

6 extra frames of reaction time really helps. I think i've honed my reactionary play to the point where i don't necessarily need this yet, but i may start implementing it soon

 

[KAOSTAR]

Another cool trick I like to do, usually after a shine knock down....dash and JC shine them while they are on the ground. I dont quite think its a thunders but it seems to make them at least react and if u watch for it u can put them in a worse situation then they are already in.

ex: nair>shine>WD-Dash>jc shine> react

Im pretty sure they can still getup attack, or roll but most ppl are expecting jab and mash away causing them to roll in which u can punish.

I like it because its a lil more damage, and it also is a good ground mixup to keep the pressure on

 

[Brookman]

drill > up tlit. Get at me


actually, I'll do you one better:

DRILL > DRILL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

drill->drill infinite

 

[JPOBS]

just watched lovage vs fly GF. daaaaaaaamn. good stuff lovage. if i ever have to pay a ic i kno whats good.

 

[Brookman]

I dunno what lovage does but this is my strategy:

Run around till ICs are close to the stage. Shine both ICs. Nana takes the edge then I gimp popo. REPEAT.


Usually a variation of that for ~8 stocks