Sinji
Smash Master
Good **** lovage. I liked the thunders combo on the first match. Good job ****** Zhu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoEQ9X2w_Qk&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoEQ9X2w_Qk&feature=sub
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
JPOBS
Smash Hero
but aren't you also jump cancelling the grab so it evens out?
Winston
Smash Master
and jc grabbing doesn't for some reason?
Almost every roll in the game is invulnerable frame 4. Also, perfect JC usmash and perfect JC grab have the same startup.
Yep.
Usmash is a good tech chase if you know you're gonna land it, but they can easily just shield (which happens on frame 1), so you'll get reamed in the *** if you're the slightest bit off.
unknown522
Some guy
oh yeah, I should've been more specific, my bad.
But yeah, that falco did a lot of n-airs/b-airs in general vs you, when calling a jump, or sometimes when you were standing around, so you could've CC'd them and done something like shine. The only time you could CC a d-air effectively and get away with it is if you're at 0-10%. You can shine them first (though I never do it TBH).
Also, he kept getting d-throw combos on you somehow. DI away and buffer roll, or just hold down and shine him. The ones at the edge that combo into d-smash couldn't be avoided though.
yeah, I watched that when you posted this. It was 6am at that time for us here. That was a pretty beast set.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
duh im stupid for forgetting that you're also JCing grabs. So i guess the only difference is that you gain 2-5 frames of leeway if they shield and try to buffer as opposed to usmash which will probably fail then
Winston
Smash Master
Is there a trick to getting sh uair to hit with the strong hit on battlefield/ps platforms? Do you have to aim it really well or something?
unknown522
Some guy
lol, I love the wording of this.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I would think up-smash ...
Dsmash has chance of shield poking and Fsmash is slower / not as strong
Also shouldn't speed be the key factor here if it's almost dead? They'll be much more likely to drop their shield by the time it gets to that point right?
You're probably just better off Bairing ...
Dsmash has chance of shield poking and Fsmash is slower / not as strong
Also shouldn't speed be the key factor here if it's almost dead? They'll be much more likely to drop their shield by the time it gets to that point right?
You're probably just better off Bairing ...
mers
Smash Ace
Shine usmash works wonders for that, it's really quick and murders shields. Only do the shine if you think it won't stab though.
unknown522
Some guy
u-smash easily.
speaking of breaking shields: I broke a jiggs' shield yesterday with roy's fully charged neutral-b.
speaking of breaking shields: I broke a jiggs' shield yesterday with roy's fully charged neutral-b.
Winston
Smash Master
Here are some numbers, dsmash/fsmash aren't listed though.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595
according to this bair does the most damage (42), then usmash (36).
That doesn't take into account likelihood of shield stab though. I imagine bair stabs more often than usmash does.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595
according to this bair does the most damage (42), then usmash (36).
That doesn't take into account likelihood of shield stab though. I imagine bair stabs more often than usmash does.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
I know that damage isn't related to shield damage because jiggs pound is ********.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I kept trying to shine him out of them. It never worked. :[ Every single time he dthrew me I was trying to shine, I think. I guess I'll get used to DI'ing away and buffering roll or DI'ing away and shielding. I see Lovage do DI away into dtilt? should I do that?
shield stun is directly correlated to damage percent (1 frame per percent dmg iirc) but shield damage isn't.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
again, puff's pound? It doesn't do THAT much % damage, does it?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
oh wait, one frame per % isn't right at all. sorry. it's half a frame per %, or a frame every 2% iirc. i just texted my friend who knows all kinds of stupid frame stuff, just to make sure
edit: ^ yea, the above is true. shieldstun is evidently always a frame for every 2%
edit: ^ yea, the above is true. shieldstun is evidently always a frame for every 2%
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I didn't know that you could do that, nor have I ever seen love do that, but if it works for you guys, then do it, but if not then I suggest buffer roll/sidestep. Sometimes opponents will wait for the roll or whatever, so maybe that's how he catches them with d-tilts.
Also random thought; if d-tilt works then u-smash should work as well. I'm pretty sure they come out on the same frame and turnaround u-tilt is a frame slower, so maybe that could work as well? Also f-tilt, or jab, or something.
Edit:
- Unknown522 posting; I forgot to log out. oops
unknown522
Some guy
^ that was me, oops.
Also, lol @ linguini viewing this thread.
edit: oh yeah toph, about the CCing d-airs. If the shine isn't working, then you can try to SDI the d-airs so that he'll miss shines.
edit 2: some things that I didn't really mention before (sorry I was at a smashfest at the time that I was posting, so I rushed and didn't get into much detail), sometimes it's not a bad Idea to try and shield lasers if their sort of close, then try to beat their approach by throwing out a move oos (n-air/b-air/u-smash), or even just WDing oos. For example: @ 4:32, it might have worked. Also, sometimes even if you get hit by the laser, then sometimes it's good to just attack and try to stop them/put pressure. For example: @ 5:08 and 5:11 maybe.
More things I noticed the second time watching it (now that I'm paying more attention to it); 2 things that kind of link together: There are a lot of times where you try to move too early and/or too late oos and miss opportunities where you could've punished the opponent for trying to pressure/space on your shield. There are some scenarios where you could punish with u-smash oos, like high b-airs and stuff. For example @ 4:53, on either of the 2 b-airs that he did, you could've u-smash them. Also on 5:30, you could've shined/u-smash oos while he was facing away from you. Don't get me wrong though, there are times where you also did good oos options. It just felt like you could have done it much more often than you did (which I am really trying to work on as well).
In that same match (can't remember if it happened in other matches, though it probably did), when you manage to make it to the edge and your opponent misses a move nearby the edge, to keep pressure/land a potential edgeguard, you could do ledge hop d-air -> grab -> u/b-throw -> followup (or sometimes u-air -> followup depending on the move that they commit to, and where they are positioned on the stage). If they DI your d-air behind you then u-tilt. Since a lot of the time, he is trying to space on the stage, he doesn't get the privilege of DIing and grabbing the edge, due to a combination of being too far from the edge, but also because he's a space animal. I'm saying this because when he misses, the few times I saw you attempt to punish, you did:
- @ 4:34, a ledge hop n-air
- @ 5:34, a shine -> f-air
- @ 6:43, a shine-turnaround -> b-air
Which 2 out of 3 sent him across the stage, and you want to be close to falco.
You also didn't really pressure his shield much I noticed. I think you could probably put a little scare into him if you go berserk for a short burst on his shield (low n-air -> shine -> d-air/space), or even double shine in the shield sometimes if you think that they will try to shine you oos.
Also, more b-air/u-tilt in general. They're such amazing moves. Especially vs characters that don't have range. Some examples of when you could've b-air'd were:
- 8:39, when he DJ'd over you
- 8:41, when you WD'd underneath him
- 8:43, when he was coming at you with a n-air
- 8:46, when he d-air'd you onto the platform
- 8:51, after you edge-canceled the illusion
I mentioned them more on the BF match because different stages call for different strategies. Since the stage (platforms) are all close together, b-air works so well vs falco since it's harder for him to position himself quickly because fox can get close to him easier, whereas on DL64 he was able to run away more and space/position himself better since the stage is so big and open.
Also on BF, you can sometimes hit a falco who is SH lasering under a plafrom, because his head goes above the platform slightly. Also because the platforms are sort of high (but not too high. So that he can't time u-airs for free on you), it makes it a bit easier to move around falco and get the drop on him.
On the FD match, I guess you decided not to CG him. There were a few times in the beginning of the match that you could've shined or attacked oos when he shot close lasers and didn't approach, but wasn't spaced well.
But yeah, I'll write more later. Kinda tired.
Also, lol @ linguini viewing this thread.
edit: oh yeah toph, about the CCing d-airs. If the shine isn't working, then you can try to SDI the d-airs so that he'll miss shines.
edit 2: some things that I didn't really mention before (sorry I was at a smashfest at the time that I was posting, so I rushed and didn't get into much detail), sometimes it's not a bad Idea to try and shield lasers if their sort of close, then try to beat their approach by throwing out a move oos (n-air/b-air/u-smash), or even just WDing oos. For example: @ 4:32, it might have worked. Also, sometimes even if you get hit by the laser, then sometimes it's good to just attack and try to stop them/put pressure. For example: @ 5:08 and 5:11 maybe.
More things I noticed the second time watching it (now that I'm paying more attention to it); 2 things that kind of link together: There are a lot of times where you try to move too early and/or too late oos and miss opportunities where you could've punished the opponent for trying to pressure/space on your shield. There are some scenarios where you could punish with u-smash oos, like high b-airs and stuff. For example @ 4:53, on either of the 2 b-airs that he did, you could've u-smash them. Also on 5:30, you could've shined/u-smash oos while he was facing away from you. Don't get me wrong though, there are times where you also did good oos options. It just felt like you could have done it much more often than you did (which I am really trying to work on as well).
In that same match (can't remember if it happened in other matches, though it probably did), when you manage to make it to the edge and your opponent misses a move nearby the edge, to keep pressure/land a potential edgeguard, you could do ledge hop d-air -> grab -> u/b-throw -> followup (or sometimes u-air -> followup depending on the move that they commit to, and where they are positioned on the stage). If they DI your d-air behind you then u-tilt. Since a lot of the time, he is trying to space on the stage, he doesn't get the privilege of DIing and grabbing the edge, due to a combination of being too far from the edge, but also because he's a space animal. I'm saying this because when he misses, the few times I saw you attempt to punish, you did:
- @ 4:34, a ledge hop n-air
- @ 5:34, a shine -> f-air
- @ 6:43, a shine-turnaround -> b-air
Which 2 out of 3 sent him across the stage, and you want to be close to falco.
You also didn't really pressure his shield much I noticed. I think you could probably put a little scare into him if you go berserk for a short burst on his shield (low n-air -> shine -> d-air/space), or even double shine in the shield sometimes if you think that they will try to shine you oos.
Also, more b-air/u-tilt in general. They're such amazing moves. Especially vs characters that don't have range. Some examples of when you could've b-air'd were:
- 8:39, when he DJ'd over you
- 8:41, when you WD'd underneath him
- 8:43, when he was coming at you with a n-air
- 8:46, when he d-air'd you onto the platform
- 8:51, after you edge-canceled the illusion
I mentioned them more on the BF match because different stages call for different strategies. Since the stage (platforms) are all close together, b-air works so well vs falco since it's harder for him to position himself quickly because fox can get close to him easier, whereas on DL64 he was able to run away more and space/position himself better since the stage is so big and open.
Also on BF, you can sometimes hit a falco who is SH lasering under a plafrom, because his head goes above the platform slightly. Also because the platforms are sort of high (but not too high. So that he can't time u-airs for free on you), it makes it a bit easier to move around falco and get the drop on him.
On the FD match, I guess you decided not to CG him. There were a few times in the beginning of the match that you could've shined or attacked oos when he shot close lasers and didn't approach, but wasn't spaced well.
But yeah, I'll write more later. Kinda tired.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Thank you so much for writing all that.
I dunno why I didn't CG. I usually try to let them land->techchase under 20% and CG after that, cuz I'm inconsistent at CGs until about 20%. But I guess I really didn't even do anything like that, huh? I'm an idiot lol.
@ everything else, I'll take all of that to heart. a lot of good observations I didn't make haha. I think a lot of the time with those like, missed oos options on my part, I'll see an opportunity I missed (like at 5:30), and I'll panic and think, "Ah ****, I should've got him! Maybe it's not too late-" and then I'll try to do something oos and get ***** for it.
The shield at 5:30, for example, wasn't even supposed to be a shield I don't think. I don't know what I was trying to do. I wonder if my Fox is always this ugly. ._.
<3
I dunno why I didn't CG. I usually try to let them land->techchase under 20% and CG after that, cuz I'm inconsistent at CGs until about 20%. But I guess I really didn't even do anything like that, huh? I'm an idiot lol.
@ everything else, I'll take all of that to heart. a lot of good observations I didn't make haha. I think a lot of the time with those like, missed oos options on my part, I'll see an opportunity I missed (like at 5:30), and I'll panic and think, "Ah ****, I should've got him! Maybe it's not too late-" and then I'll try to do something oos and get ***** for it.
The shield at 5:30, for example, wasn't even supposed to be a shield I don't think. I don't know what I was trying to do. I wonder if my Fox is always this ugly. ._.
<3
me(6:45:06 PM): and i think you said this was from like 5 am?
toph (9:04:46 PM): hahah
toph(9:04:46 PM): yeah
toph(9:04:48 PM): it was really late
toph(9:04:49 PM): and my bad
toph(9:04:52 PM): someone was over and we went to smash
toph(9:04:56 PM): i was just on the computer while he was eating dinner
toph(9:04:56 PM):
toph(9:05:12 PM): falco is like
toph(9:05:12 PM): hard
toph(9:05:24 PM): when i forget to focus on getting grabs and keeping him away with bairs
toph(9:05:26 PM): >_>
me (11:39:29 PM): I think you should work on your edge guarding strategy
Auto response from toph (11:39:29 PM): I'm not here right now
me(11:39:31 PM): against falco
me(11:39:37 PM): sorry, i fell asleep
me(11:39:39 PM): LOL
I fell asleep @ ~6:45, as I was typing " I think you should work on your edge guarding strategy" and woke iup with the computer like right next to me and just finished typing and sent the message
*face palm*
the PM should read AM, my computers clock is inverted since I don't sleep.
toph (9:04:46 PM): hahah
toph(9:04:46 PM): yeah
toph(9:04:48 PM): it was really late
toph(9:04:49 PM): and my bad
toph(9:04:52 PM): someone was over and we went to smash
toph(9:04:56 PM): i was just on the computer while he was eating dinner
toph(9:04:56 PM):
toph(9:05:12 PM): falco is like
toph(9:05:12 PM): hard
toph(9:05:24 PM): when i forget to focus on getting grabs and keeping him away with bairs
toph(9:05:26 PM): >_>
me (11:39:29 PM): I think you should work on your edge guarding strategy
Auto response from toph (11:39:29 PM): I'm not here right now
me(11:39:31 PM): against falco
me(11:39:37 PM): sorry, i fell asleep
me(11:39:39 PM): LOL
I fell asleep @ ~6:45, as I was typing " I think you should work on your edge guarding strategy" and woke iup with the computer like right next to me and just finished typing and sent the message
*face palm*
the PM should read AM, my computers clock is inverted since I don't sleep.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOLLL ****
and yeah wtf
sometimes it seems every time I'm like, "ok I'll nair him out of his side+B" they'll up+B and every time I'm like "ok I'll go out there and shine the up+B" they'll side+B past me. i don't remember being this bad at edgeguarding :| any specific tips?
and yeah wtf
sometimes it seems every time I'm like, "ok I'll nair him out of his side+B" they'll up+B and every time I'm like "ok I'll go out there and shine the up+B" they'll side+B past me. i don't remember being this bad at edgeguarding :| any specific tips?
~Twitch~
Smash Master
don't try and predict his recovery just react to it.
when you get to the edge->turn around. dsmash or utilt and if they go up when they upb then you bair them.
when you get to the edge->turn around. dsmash or utilt and if they go up when they upb then you bair them.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
more edgeguarding from the stage, less edgeguarding off the stage. that's a thought i just had when i was in the shower, and i came back to read a post telling me to do so. sounds good then lol
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
imagine if you could play smash in the shower, WITH online capabilities
boner
boner
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
uhhh as stupid or random as this may sound
i'm starting to think that my chronic sleep depression makes me worse at smash cuz it ****s up my reaction time just barely enough to make me not confident enough to go for reaction-based edgeguards and techchases.
what do you guys think about sleep, with regard to smash? how important is getting enough sleep, as a fox player?
i'm starting to think that my chronic sleep depression makes me worse at smash cuz it ****s up my reaction time just barely enough to make me not confident enough to go for reaction-based edgeguards and techchases.
what do you guys think about sleep, with regard to smash? how important is getting enough sleep, as a fox player?
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
i think even the smallest amount of focus being taken away[mentally] while smashing will make you play noticeably worse.
like i know when **** wasn't going great with my girlfriend, i'd play smash worse. if i was in a good mood i'd also play better.
emotions play a big role imo.
i think getting enough[in your eyes] sleep is important regardless of your character.
like i know when **** wasn't going great with my girlfriend, i'd play smash worse. if i was in a good mood i'd also play better.
emotions play a big role imo.
i think getting enough[in your eyes] sleep is important regardless of your character.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
pretty much anything that alters your state of consciousness/focus could arguably affect your play negatively.
on the other hand, your body easily adapts to situations presented over long periods of time. so like, if you always play in a sleep deprived state, you probably wont play much/any better in a fully rested state cuz you've already made the necessary adjustments.
on the other hand, your body easily adapts to situations presented over long periods of time. so like, if you always play in a sleep deprived state, you probably wont play much/any better in a fully rested state cuz you've already made the necessary adjustments.
voorhese
Smash Master
idk the best ive ever played was when i am half asleep, because im not as twitchy and excited the whole time
JPOBS
Smash Hero
meh, i kept writing and erasing stuff cuz i dont want to get all complicated and physiological and derail this thread.
i'll just say that being physiologically relaxed("half asleep")/excited (twitchy and stuff)
is entirely different that altered states of focus/sleep deprivation/weed.
and as such, they arent really comparable
i'll just say that being physiologically relaxed("half asleep")/excited (twitchy and stuff)
is entirely different that altered states of focus/sleep deprivation/weed.
and as such, they arent really comparable
voorhese
Smash Master
im pretty sure being half asleep is comparable to sleep deprivation, and if not it still would alter focus =/meh, i kept writing and erasing stuff cuz i dont want to get all complicated and physiological and derail this thread.
i'll just say that being physiologically relaxed("half asleep")/excited (twitchy and stuff)
is entirely different that altered states of focus/sleep deprivation/weed.
and as such, they arent really comparable
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
@jobs , yeah. exactly what i was trying to think out into words. well sorta. emotional effects[sad/happy] =/= natural body effects[sleepy/hyper]
mm dgdtj in 3 dayzzzzzz
mm dgdtj in 3 dayzzzzzz
Silent Wolf
...
it depends on the person, same goes for like any other similar john.
depends how easy it is for you to focus and how good you are at coping with whatevers wrong with you (sleep in this case). Some people probably just cant cope with **** like that. I play fine when im tired.
i think mood/attitude def has an influence on how good youre playing.
toph, dont do nair utilt like that on falco. if they cc they can punish that. cc shield ***** it cuz they can punish the utilt on the shield. on fd, go for utilt after uthrow, not usmash. you can connect a lot of them, just use walk, wavedash, and run -> dash cancel utilts accordingly. turn around when you think it will trick their Di. dont exhaust the platform camp thing where you jump in with random shines then waveland on a platform. also, its not as good on fod when the platforms are low cuz sometimes when they get hit they slide off. dont really have much else to say, maybe ill watch it again when im not hella high lol
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
when im half-asleep my tech skill is absurd but my reading and mindgames and stuff suffer. i think just not focusing on tech skill makes it better once you're already good at it cause the more you think about it the less you're letting muscle memory do its thing
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
@otto:
what did you mean by them "sliding off" if the shine hits them? (on fod's low platforms) do you mean when the opponent is in their shield?
edit: i didn't understand what you meant when i first read that post, but i see what you mean about "exhausting" it.
i've had this bizarre problem recently where, when i get the chance to do friendlies on platform stages, i go crazy trying to use the platforms (something i don't get to do very often cuz of FD only) and my fundamentals/ground game drop. and i get kind of "stuck" into that style of movement/approach. it's such a bad habit lol, and i didn't notice it until now because i've never really played a serious set outside of tournament over here so far. o_o duly noted...
what did you mean by them "sliding off" if the shine hits them? (on fod's low platforms) do you mean when the opponent is in their shield?
edit: i didn't understand what you meant when i first read that post, but i see what you mean about "exhausting" it.
i've had this bizarre problem recently where, when i get the chance to do friendlies on platform stages, i go crazy trying to use the platforms (something i don't get to do very often cuz of FD only) and my fundamentals/ground game drop. and i get kind of "stuck" into that style of movement/approach. it's such a bad habit lol, and i didn't notice it until now because i've never really played a serious set outside of tournament over here so far. o_o duly noted...
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I play a lot better when I'm sleep deprived.