Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Rubyiris]

Hypnosis is the only low-acc sleep inducing move thats used. Sleep Powder and Spore are near-guaranteed.

@SW: Safe play isn't always the answer.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Hypnosis is the only low-acc sleep inducing move thats used. Sleep Powder and Spore are near-guaranteed.

@SW: Safe play isn't always the answer.

if youre trying to win it is


speaking of good sets with zhu, my set vs him from gsg is finally up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-LwkLYf2G8

or will be tomorrow

 

[Tomacawk]

Roll becomes invincible on the same frame that JC shine hits, so that works too.

The grab isn't guaranteed, but if he does the laser low enough, he has frame advantage.

does that include the 1 frame lost to buffering?


ruby, safe play may not be the answer but it should be the goal
play it safe until there's a compelling reason to take a risk

 

[ZoSo]

You don't lose a frame to buffering if you're already shielding.

Safe play isn't always the answer; taking huge risks is almost never the answer.

Also, Spore IS guaranteed.

 

[Brookman]

In RBY (the only version I care for) Parasect is the only mon who learns spore, and therefore it is virtualy useless.


exeguttor is a much better mon who has a sleep powder with 75% accuracy. behind that is hypnosis @ 60% and behind that is sing @ 55%


I put sing on Chansey for the mirror match. Its nice.

 

[Silent Wolf]

parasect is the ****

 

[Brookman]

Yes, Parasect i literally the ****.

 

[Tomacawk]

thanks zoso. I didn't know that.

 

[ZoSo]

You can thank Magus.

 

[Lovage]

Laser doesn't have enough shield stun for it to be guaranteed.

yeah it does as long as they land close to you and laser low

zhu does it a lot (hold buffer roll and you get grabbed, yes buffer is 1 frame slower than perfect timing but whatever)

if they space the grab at the edge of their grab range you can shield sdi back and escape fairly easily (and you can shieldgrab them out of their whiffed grab)

 

[ZoSo]

Buffering isn't one frame slower if your shield is already up, i.e. if you do it during shield stun.

Laser > grab against shields isn't guaranteed. Maybe if you do it like, completely frame perfect but I'm relatively sure you can always at least spot dodge.

 

[omgwtfToph]

posing threat but it has a low probability of connecting and often doesnt result in any real advantage.

i gotta call you out on this bit lol. sleep is like, really really good lol. it's so good that competitive play bans the use of sleep on more than one pokemon on the opposing team (Sleep Clause)

uhh and grabbing someone when they try to laser->grab you in your shield, is like trying to grab someone out of their dashdance. i've only ever seen m2k do it consistently and make it work. you ever play m2k on FD and he just grabs you out of nowhere and you SWEAR you were in a perfectly safe position? anyway, yeah. i really wouldn't recommend things like "when your opponent is dashdancing, just grab him out of it!" because that is NOT the kind of thing you can just pick up and rely on as a safe counter to stuff. maybe against a weaker opponent, and maybe as something to consciously try to aim for in a friendlies session. but it's not a habit that i would build, or recommend building, in a tournament.


also, tight. theyre playing gaga - pokerface at work

edit: wtf this is like the kidz bop version WTF IS THIS BULL****!!!! it's like, teenagers singing... and... wtf, this song isn't even age-appropriate LOL i'm so confused

 

[Brookman]

I know how good sleep is. I play RBY very often. I say that because sleep lasts for anywhere between 1 and 7 turns so you can sleep someone just to have them wake up on the same turn (usually only happens with gengar, since other common sleepers are hella slow.)

sleep wins games, especially late game sleeping.

 

[FoxLisk]

you cant just like randomly grab someone out of a laser-grab but if your opponent is overusing it it's actually pretty easy to execute when you're planning it. you just have to know it's coming. and it's easier if they come in a little too close

 

[Rubyiris]

RBY is irrelevant. Gen 5 or bust.

 

[ZoSo]

Ruby with yet another HIGHLY INTELLIGENT post.

 

[Brookman]

honestly, Id rather just let my shield get hit by the laser, shffl nair or dair then go for a grab.

you know, back to SW's post.

 

[Rubyiris]

Ruby with yet another HIGHLY INTELLIGENT post.

Your sarcasm isn't appreciated.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I know how good sleep is. I play RBY very often. I say that because sleep lasts for anywhere between 1 and 7 turns so you can sleep someone just to have them wake up on the same turn (usually only happens with gengar, since other common sleepers are hella slow.)

sleep wins games, especially late game sleeping.

oh ok haha. i misunderstood what you were saying. the way you phrased it, i.e. "...often doesnt result in any real advantage." made it sound like you were saying sleep isn't that good

ruby's right btw LOL, RBY sucks hahah >.> there wasn't even phazing lol.

anyway yea imma watch otto vs zhu when i get home and start actually not being a moron LOL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

zoso, i might have sc2 on the brain, but your avatar looks surprisingly similar to jinro comics

 

[ZoSo]

I don't know what that is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

massively hyped terran player. he made it to the semi finals in the GSL (Largest e-sports tournament ever, ~$90,000 for first place, held in korea) and so far has gotten farther than any non-korean could dream. He beat wc3 legend Spirit_MooN among other people.

 

[omgwtfToph]

haha i'm watching the set with zhu right now. i find it cruelly ironic that otto, the king of invisible shines, got an invisible shine without a hitbox that should've shinespiked zhu

edit: holy **** LOL otto went into otto mode and did otto ****



edit, much later:

aight, I got a bo5 set recorded with a good falco over here, a dude named Kou. I've got a $69 MM against a falco player in hawaii in about a month, and while I think I probably won't drop a game, I wanted to prepare as much as possible, and since lovage etc mentioned the matchup recently i thought i'd post this and hopefully get some critique?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abl8BTbO36A

it was 2 in the morning and kou had been playing c.falcon for the last like 3 hours so i don't think either of us were playing amazing, but i'm mostly just posting that in case otto sees the video and is disappointed with how sloppy my fox looks. XD

broad stuff I noticed on my own: i think i was a bit too hasty to approach and try to squeeze in hits when they weren't guaranteed, i think i did a bad job finding and capitalizing on grabs, i think my edgeguarding was subpar in a few cases, and i think i tried to play the matchup too much like a fox ditto (i.e. i spazzed out too much, and i didn't mind his lasers well enough) but overall, i think this video is a good representation of how i handle the falco matchup, so any and all criticism is welcome <3

 

[voorhese]

so the 1 frame of buffering a roll doesnt make sense to me, i hear its a bad thing, but u are guaranteed the fastest roll - 1 frame right? and the 1 frame is u putting up a shield for 1 frame?
so shouldnt it work as a powershield and the only thing that can hurt u would be to get grabbed?

 

[FoxLisk]

Toph

I think you're a little too aggressive. you run into utilts and bairs and things sometimes that you could have avoided by being a little more patient. and you don't go for grabs enough either.

you got punished a lot by being a little slow on a tech chase and still trying to get it. you just ran into utilts or shines and got combo'd. I have this problem a lot too, because i'm garbage, but like... if you mess up you have to just let it go or you get *****

oh and i think shine oos would help you. maybe practice that?

 

[ZoSo]

so the 1 frame of buffering a roll doesnt make sense to me, i hear its a bad thing, but u are guaranteed the fastest roll - 1 frame right? and the 1 frame is u putting up a shield for 1 frame?
so shouldnt it work as a powershield and the only thing that can hurt u would be to get grabbed?

If your shield isn't already up and you buffer a roll (i.e. after a tech, or even after another roll), your shield has to be up for one frame THEN you'll roll. However, it is possible to roll on the frame your shield goes up. So technically, it's a frame faster, but prohibitively difficult to do.

 

[1337h4xx0r]

I'm still rather inexperienced in this game, and have a few questions.

1. How should I approach a Sheik?
2. What are some good combos against Sheik?
3. Are there any good approaches against a Marth with really good spacing?
4. What should I do about Falco's lasers?

Edit: Also, is there any way I can recover on Mute City against Jiggz without getting murdered by rest?

 

[omgwtfToph]

yeahhh I definitely missed a ton of oos stuff haha

and I know what you mean about the techchase stuff. I kept mentally slapping myself after I'd do stuff like that lol

thanks for the criticism!

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I'm still rather inexperienced in this game, and have a few questions.

1. How should I approach a Sheik?
2. What are some good combos against Sheik?
3. Are there any good approaches against a Marth with really good spacing?
4. What should I do about Falco's lasers?

Edit: Also, is there any way I can recover on Mute City against Jiggz without getting murdered by rest?

Fox can combo basically everybody just by working with the given situation. Like u-tilt, if you hit her with that, you'll almost always be able to hit them again with something else that might be able to continue ur combo. just gotta experiment, Fox is different.

For the marth part, uhm, a good marth will usually wavedash back and grab u from ur missed aerial, so the goal here is to overshoot your aerial, do it where u think he will WD back. And if he doesn't well then you're behind his shield now and he can't do much to you.

For falco, learn to powershield. Powershielding is shielding right as a projectile hits you to bounce it back, it takes a lot of good reaction time but if you learn it earlier on, it'll catch on before you know it. You can also do full hops over the lasers into aerials, but good falcos will catch on right away and punish you hard.

One major worry in your questions is Crouch cancelling. Shiek can crouch cancel some of your moves while shes at lower percents, same with falco. So those are both things to watchout for whenever you play either character.


edit; i've come to notice smashboards is great when it comes to sharing knowledge, or for me atleast, cause it kinda reminds me on things i tell other people lol. Like the more i bring knowledge up, the more it's lodged in during tournament play. Kinda a win-win situation giving tips. Maybe i'm just dumb =3

 

[FoxLisk]

I'm still rather inexperienced in this game, and have a few questions.

1. How should I approach a Sheik?

eh, it's pretty tricky. she can **** most of your approaches. CC grab ***** everything except grab, shine, and dair until pretty high percents. WD back ftilt ***** all of those and also other things. You have to just stay in her uncomfortable zone (out of ftilt range) and move around and wait for an opening. When she's at low percent and she, like, whiffs a grab, say, try to approach with dair. if you get there in time you can shine -> wd -> grab -> uthrow -> ****.

2. What are some good combos against Sheik?

waveshine gets you a grab or an upsmash (or an uptilt if you have good enough control, which you probably don't if you're new).
After an uptilt, as someone said, you can hit her with basically anything at low-mid percents. try to get like a weak nair or weak bair and keep going if you can. she goes pretty far from like nair and stuff. jumping up and upairing her or bairing her is always good too, just often suboptimal.

3. Are there any good approaches against a Marth with really good spacing?

Short answer: no. Laser him and force him to commit to something.

Someone already gave part of the long answer. like with sheik, he can **** on all of your approaches with ease, so you have to either force him to commit and then punish or else be very tricky. things like a short hop -> waveland backwards will often get him to throw a laggy move that you can punish.

Running in and shielding is good once in a while; if they fsmash you you can WD out -> grab. If you can't execute that... well, you should learn how, but in the meantime don't bother.

Dash dancing and lasering will force him to approach, but he has a really big sword and you still have to be careful. if you have a platform, waiting for him to run up and then wavelanding on to the platform and then coming down on him is good.

Marth's major approaches are fair, dash attack (not much vs fox, really), dtilt, and grab. these are all hard to do anything about. you can CC a fair into whatever at low percents if it's not tipped, or just wait for him to land but there's very little lag so it's hard to punish. Dash attack you can just shield or CC and then grab/shine -> ****. Dtilt is really hard to deal with. if you see it coming you can just sh drill over it, but it's really fast, so be careful.

grab you have to DD or something and make him miss you. If your opponent is always trying to run in and grab, though, you can just hit him with anything, but then if you're wrong and he shields or fairs or WD's back, you're ****ed.

4. What should I do about Falco's lasers?

Full hop over them. use platforms.

get in his face somehow and then he cant laser, cause when he starts to you can just go kill him.

If he's approaching you with like laser -> laser -> dair like everyone does you can just like CC the laser and hit him. the better you get at this game the more ways you will find around lasers.

Edit: Also, is there any way I can recover on Mute City against Jiggz without getting murdered by rest?

your up-B has too little landing lag to be punished safely by rest. so try to land on stage with that when you can. you can't, though, really, cause youll just get baired or whatever ****. jiggs is gay on that stage. Just let whoever is CPing mute city against you know that it's no longer tournament legal, in general and stop playing there.

 

[Silent Wolf]

ill check that out later toph, im pretty busy these next few days

 

[unknown522]

parasect is the ****

Yes, Parasect i literally the ****.

yeah parasect is ****


Also toph, both you and your opponent almost never CC anything. Like n-air and stuff. I personally think that you needed to try and tech chase more efficiently and get more with most of your hits combo-wise. More b-air and u-tilt in general. You approach with n-air a lot, but luckily enough he doesn't want to CC them.

 

[omgwtfToph]

hmm. yeah, I think (or would like to think, lol) that I'm good at adapting when I start getting CC'd and i start using dair a lot more, but i'll definitely look out for that.

now, one thing, though. I use CC against, in particular, marth (eat a fair as i run in to get a shine or grab) and sheik (cc the tilts/aerials like you're supposed to), but I don't really see how useful CC would be against falco. falco's dair ****s up CC and is generally what falcos approach with at least 50% of the time, CC doesn't do anything to stop a laser (well, I could powershield from my crouch I guess?), and shine also ***** CC. so when you say I don't CC enough, how do you suggest utilizing it against falco?



i'll work on the techchasing too, thanks. i still have to like, consciously tell myself "ok, let him land, and then focus on getting the techchase" so when i'm not really in the zone, i'll try to extend combos further than i should and my opponent will just hit the ground and tech away. i saw myself go for usmash at least twice when i should've just waited and techchased. i'll keep working on that



edit: btw who else is watching lovage vs zhu right now AS I POST THIS. OMG. PROBABLY NOBODY cuz its like 3 am in america but **** im pretty hype after watching that first match
EDIT AGAIN that set was incredible hahaha. im down to talk about it if other people are

 

[Silent Wolf]

Oscar - you should just tech chase with grab, its pretty easy to react to all options with it. up smash is too risky and if you get a grab on fd youll get a lot more than that. also chain throw

 

[FoxLisk]

up smash is just as fast as grab though so if you're fast enough to tech chase with grab you can up smash. it's only risky if you're too slow and then a grab is too anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

actually usmash out of a run is at least 1 frame slower. Also, for any buffer stuff, there is 1 frame of shield then the buffered animation, which is 2 frames of grab-vulnerability for spot dodges and ~5 (forget the exact number) for rolls. Grab is definitely safer and has less DI escape options.

 

[FoxLisk]

you sure? ive been told before that they come out at the same speed

now i dont know what to believe

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

They do, but you have to jump cancel or dash cancel if you are tech chasing (you have to run to the tech) which takes at least 1 extra frame.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i wonder what mango did before he got really good, to get really good. [besides natural skill ofc.]

Like i wonder if he studied match-ups a lot, or if he learned any frame data. [or if he knows any now that he's top]

..or if he just played D:

 

[Wenbobular]

He's probably naturally good at picking up on habits