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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i appreciate your critique brookman, your honesty helps alot.
the uptilt to nothing was just a fail'd controller on my part, supposed to be a shineturnaround bair but the jump missed, so the supposed turnaround turned into me DD for nothing.
when you get the chance, could you elaborate on "need to update your platform playing." cuz i definitely see me missing followups and stuff on platforms too much and i'd like to know what i should be doing.
the uptilt to nothing was just a fail'd controller on my part, supposed to be a shineturnaround bair but the jump missed, so the supposed turnaround turned into me DD for nothing.
when you get the chance, could you elaborate on "need to update your platform playing." cuz i definitely see me missing followups and stuff on platforms too much and i'd like to know what i should be doing.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11770446#post11770446
now it can be your turn to make me feel bad for my play style.
now it can be your turn to make me feel bad for my play style.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
First match:
0:23, free bair -> uptilt combo but you missed the fastfall
0:26 got it that time good stuff
good edgeguaridng first 2 stocks
meh you seem a lot better than his marth, he keeps dropping easy chaingrabs and easy uptilt combos. Plus he's letting you spotdodge way too much. other marths would destroy for all those spotdodges by doing that gay little quick dash dance bait. ugh. i'll come back and look more closely at this match later
second match
3:00- you gave up your positional advantage after the upsmash by opting to laser from far. should have chased and got under him. sheik sucks from the air, you could fish for upairs, or bair his double jump, especially near the ledge, setup easy edgeguards etc
3:11ish- he hit you high on the shield with a nair either upsmash it for a free kill, or grab it and do something else.
3:33 ish- upthrow to get slapped lol. i assume the jab was a nair.
3:50- upthrow to nothing. could have done anything u pleased
at 4:00ish you did it again, upsmash him but just let him get back to the ground for free. firstly u would have waveshined him across the stage for damage and then upsmash for the KO, but since you upsmashed right away, should have ran under him and pressur ehim on the way down
4:04- upair was pretty free, should have went for it
4:37 nice combo, unlucky accidental jump on the second waveshine series and u die
fox vs his falco:
7:26- free grab on that fmash on your shield
7:49- uptilt is way to slow to combo from that nair. he shilded, a better falco would have cc->shined your stock
7:58 nice shorten, good composure after getting combo'd
8:28- grab. or anything but dash attack.
9:27- bair would have killed or led to a edgeguard kill. upair->bair would have worked too.
10:43- grab/upthrow would have been more efficient and probably lead to him being offstage and edgeguarded
10:54ish- you were a little slow on the follow up and i feel like you could have got a killing bair pretty easy. but you got a upair poke so i guess thats ok but then
10:56- what was the point of those lasers? he's already at kill percent, you gave up an edgeguard opportunity for nothing.
but he sd'd :/
overall you have the right idea in lots of cases, you just do things that dont maximize efficiency sometimes.
0:23, free bair -> uptilt combo but you missed the fastfall
0:26 got it that time good stuff
good edgeguaridng first 2 stocks
meh you seem a lot better than his marth, he keeps dropping easy chaingrabs and easy uptilt combos. Plus he's letting you spotdodge way too much. other marths would destroy for all those spotdodges by doing that gay little quick dash dance bait. ugh. i'll come back and look more closely at this match later
second match
3:00- you gave up your positional advantage after the upsmash by opting to laser from far. should have chased and got under him. sheik sucks from the air, you could fish for upairs, or bair his double jump, especially near the ledge, setup easy edgeguards etc
3:11ish- he hit you high on the shield with a nair either upsmash it for a free kill, or grab it and do something else.
3:33 ish- upthrow to get slapped lol. i assume the jab was a nair.
3:50- upthrow to nothing. could have done anything u pleased
at 4:00ish you did it again, upsmash him but just let him get back to the ground for free. firstly u would have waveshined him across the stage for damage and then upsmash for the KO, but since you upsmashed right away, should have ran under him and pressur ehim on the way down
4:04- upair was pretty free, should have went for it
4:37 nice combo, unlucky accidental jump on the second waveshine series and u die
fox vs his falco:
7:26- free grab on that fmash on your shield
7:49- uptilt is way to slow to combo from that nair. he shilded, a better falco would have cc->shined your stock
7:58 nice shorten, good composure after getting combo'd
8:28- grab. or anything but dash attack.
9:27- bair would have killed or led to a edgeguard kill. upair->bair would have worked too.
10:43- grab/upthrow would have been more efficient and probably lead to him being offstage and edgeguarded
10:54ish- you were a little slow on the follow up and i feel like you could have got a killing bair pretty easy. but you got a upair poke so i guess thats ok but then
10:56- what was the point of those lasers? he's already at kill percent, you gave up an edgeguard opportunity for nothing.
but he sd'd :/
overall you have the right idea in lots of cases, you just do things that dont maximize efficiency sometimes.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
ok i didn't watch all of it and maybe you weren't warmed up or something but from what i saw:
you sit in your shield too much, you sidestep the same way a lot (although you weren't getting punished so i don't blame you), you don't move around enough (and by that i mean you don't control the stage at all) and you'd do weird random desperation attacks like dsmash in the middle of the stage
you sit in your shield too much, you sidestep the same way a lot (although you weren't getting punished so i don't blame you), you don't move around enough (and by that i mean you don't control the stage at all) and you'd do weird random desperation attacks like dsmash in the middle of the stage
Lovage
Smash Hero
unknown vs kels might have been....
the most boring fox ditto i've ever seen LOL
<3 my fox brothers
the most boring fox ditto i've ever seen LOL
<3 my fox brothers
Winston
Smash Master
How often should I be waveshining through their shield after I hit it with an aerial? I don't mean repeated waveshines, just once to get myself to the other side. Is it worth doing ever and why? Is it safe vs. shieldgrabbing?
Is that all you got toph? anyone else have some spare time to crit those fox matches for me?
against the shield I think trying to cross up with a wavedash is not as good as crossing in a shffl aerial. Shine has virtually no stun and players these days are getting particularly good at grabbing ASAP against the shine.
against the shield I think trying to cross up with a wavedash is not as good as crossing in a shffl aerial. Shine has virtually no stun and players these days are getting particularly good at grabbing ASAP against the shine.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Brookman: I really did only watch about a minute, haha. I'm at work right now. I'll watch more later though. Especially Marth on FD cuz I've theorycrafted that matchup to the ends of the earth and back. >_>
Winston
Smash Master
Brookman why is your movement so weird? haha
I don't know what to make of it... and it makes it harder for me to tell what's a tech skill mistake and what isn't. A lot of times you hit him and wait or something instead of following up and I'm not sure why. And sometimes it seems like you use shield in situations where you could use Fox's movement options to defend yourself and I'm not sure if it's because you aren't comfortable with the movement or if it's a conscious choice to shield instead of something else.
Fox's options that I know of:
1). Predict they'll miss the tech/tech in place and uair where they land - super obvious, but has a really high reward because of grab/usmash/utilt/runoff nair followups to however they DI it
Covers: no tech, tech in place
2). Stand under and wait. If they techroll you have tons of time to follow and uair.
If they miss the tech you're in a decent position anyway since if they do anything you can react to it with uair, and if they don't do anything and you just keep waiting you can do a uair at any moment that they can't react to, so they're pressured to do something. You can probably do like empty hops/triangle jumps/whatever from this position to bait a getup attack also.
If they tech in place they get out probably.
Covers: no tech, either techroll
3). Fulljump asap and fastfall drill where they land. If they miss the tech the drill resets them. If they tech in place you get either utilt or grab. I think if you do it fast enough/depending on where they land you can cover one of the tech rolls, but not both.
Covers: no tech (sometimes smash DI messes this up), tech in place, one techroll (positionally dependent)
4). Waveland -> react.
Pretty much covers everything except tech in place. I think it covers tech in place sometimes if you can get there fast enough but usually not. If they miss the tech you can crouch and pretty much cover everything.
Covers: either techroll, no tech, tech in place (sometimes? maybe?)
5). running fh bair/nair
if they land on the side of the platform closer to you and you can get a running start this should guarantee a hit. The bair/nair strength will probably vary depending on which techroll they choose though.
Covers: everything, though you probably will only get a followup on in place/techroll in the direction that you're going in
Bonus silliness:
If they land on the top platform of Yoshis I think you can fh uair where they land and if they techroll you have time to fh uair again.
If they techroll to the center on one of the side platforms and you grab them there they'll obviously want to DI to the to platform, so if you pummel once to let them set their DI you can probably do bthrow -> stuff. Haven't tried this yet but in my mind this should work.
Sorry if that stuff was too basic but that's a summary of all the options I know about/use/have seen in videos.
I don't know what to make of it... and it makes it harder for me to tell what's a tech skill mistake and what isn't. A lot of times you hit him and wait or something instead of following up and I'm not sure why. And sometimes it seems like you use shield in situations where you could use Fox's movement options to defend yourself and I'm not sure if it's because you aren't comfortable with the movement or if it's a conscious choice to shield instead of something else.
Well, what do you usually do when they land on platforms?
Fox's options that I know of:
1). Predict they'll miss the tech/tech in place and uair where they land - super obvious, but has a really high reward because of grab/usmash/utilt/runoff nair followups to however they DI it
Covers: no tech, tech in place
2). Stand under and wait. If they techroll you have tons of time to follow and uair.
If they miss the tech you're in a decent position anyway since if they do anything you can react to it with uair, and if they don't do anything and you just keep waiting you can do a uair at any moment that they can't react to, so they're pressured to do something. You can probably do like empty hops/triangle jumps/whatever from this position to bait a getup attack also.
If they tech in place they get out probably.
Covers: no tech, either techroll
3). Fulljump asap and fastfall drill where they land. If they miss the tech the drill resets them. If they tech in place you get either utilt or grab. I think if you do it fast enough/depending on where they land you can cover one of the tech rolls, but not both.
Covers: no tech (sometimes smash DI messes this up), tech in place, one techroll (positionally dependent)
4). Waveland -> react.
Pretty much covers everything except tech in place. I think it covers tech in place sometimes if you can get there fast enough but usually not. If they miss the tech you can crouch and pretty much cover everything.
Covers: either techroll, no tech, tech in place (sometimes? maybe?)
5). running fh bair/nair
if they land on the side of the platform closer to you and you can get a running start this should guarantee a hit. The bair/nair strength will probably vary depending on which techroll they choose though.
Covers: everything, though you probably will only get a followup on in place/techroll in the direction that you're going in
Bonus silliness:
If they land on the top platform of Yoshis I think you can fh uair where they land and if they techroll you have time to fh uair again.
If they techroll to the center on one of the side platforms and you grab them there they'll obviously want to DI to the to platform, so if you pummel once to let them set their DI you can probably do bthrow -> stuff. Haven't tried this yet but in my mind this should work.
Sorry if that stuff was too basic but that's a summary of all the options I know about/use/have seen in videos.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Its been fun peeking into this thread over the last few weeks. Saw a lot of good videos and a lot of good discussions. The Rubyiris drama arc was meh, but the big dump of knowledge on tips for improvement was great. I took a few mental notes too. I really liked when things shifted to videos. Captain Critique aka Brookman finally shows us some live footage.
Just wanted to stop by a say hi. Busy with life, practicing for Pound, same deal. How have you guys been lately?
Oh and before I forget, let me address this ancient comment Evoke asked. Something like 4 pages ago (which equates to roughly 25 years in Fox boards time)
KK posted this once about dashdancing, and to this day I still quote it and think it defines it REALLY accurately.
-Kirbykaze on dashdancing
Just wanted to stop by a say hi. Busy with life, practicing for Pound, same deal. How have you guys been lately?
Oh and before I forget, let me address this ancient comment Evoke asked. Something like 4 pages ago (which equates to roughly 25 years in Fox boards time)
KK posted this once about dashdancing, and to this day I still quote it and think it defines it REALLY accurately.
It's MOSTLY A SPACING TOOL and allows you to see the opponent's responses to approach/retreat WITHOUT COMMITTING TO THE SLIGHT LAG OF EITHER JUMPING, LANDING, OR THE ATTACK LAG and therefore can be used to scout defensive play by the opponent AND SOMETIMES CREATE OPENINGS BECAUSE IT CAN INTIMIDATE THE OPPONENT ESPECIALLY IF IT'S A LONG DASH DANCE SUCH AS FOX'S OR FALCON'S OR MARTH'S.
-Kirbykaze on dashdancing
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I like pudding
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I do a lot of things depending on the character and how they got on the platform, like from a previous hit of mine or from an upthrow (character dependent) but mostly variations of stuff you listed (which is all really good btw).
The problem i have with falcon is I pretty much always resolve to doing this
and i've realized its because of his weight mostly. For example, if I upthrow him, my throw animation takes longer cuz of his weight, so i cant move as fast and lots of options seem to go out the window, so i resort to just upthrow and and wait. Then i do a running fh bair/nair and it pretty much always gets CC'd and then the combo ends and idk what to do.
also, 5 is the only one you listed which covers a direction tech, which is annoying because i feel like its the worst of them all, but 1-4 dont sufficiently cover a directional tech most of the time. (and you wont always be in a position to waveland in time)
meh i'll watch jman/lucky vids to see what they do.
Winston
Smash Master
hm? You always have time to cover a direction tech if you either wait, react, and uair from below, or waveland on the platform.
You have SOOO much time if they direction tech.
People tend to love to techroll when they get thrown onto a platform and you're waiting underneath, so either of those two should consistently get you a big punish on a direction tech. Once they catch on its back to mixups. You should get a decent punish > 50% of the time unless they are significantly out-predicting you.
You have SOOO much time if they direction tech.
People tend to love to techroll when they get thrown onto a platform and you're waiting underneath, so either of those two should consistently get you a big punish on a direction tech. Once they catch on its back to mixups. You should get a decent punish > 50% of the time unless they are significantly out-predicting you.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Ah, the joys of playing a floaty. No need to worry about getting option select platform tech chased.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Yeah, instead Fox just gets to Uair you and wait under you like a shark. Is that better?
<_<
<_<
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Do any of the Fox players... know the Yoshi matchup?!?
I've been playing with Axe, Taj, Forward, many of AZ's foxes... and am "sorta" having a fun time enjoying this MU... granted.. I'm losing majority of these matchups... it's not as bad.. as I thought it is...that...
or I'm delusional.....idk ><;
I wanna play you all sometime... <3
plz!?
I've been playing with Axe, Taj, Forward, many of AZ's foxes... and am "sorta" having a fun time enjoying this MU... granted.. I'm losing majority of these matchups... it's not as bad.. as I thought it is...that...
or I'm delusional.....idk ><;
I wanna play you all sometime... <3
plz!?
Kanelol
Smash Lord
So remember a few hundred pages ago where some dude suggested a FH shine stall under a platform after an u-throw as a weird sort of tech chase and we all made fun of him
Well I tried doing it a little bit last night, and it actually ****in *****. the trick is clawing the waveland :|
Well I tried doing it a little bit last night, and it actually ****in *****. the trick is clawing the waveland :|
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
****ing luke
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Huh. I didn't see that. If I remember to do so, and if non-FD stages are on, I'll try that out this weekend.
Doraki
Smash Lord
Hey Brookman,
have you ever thought of holding L/R juste before doing a shdl, just in case you miss the jump button, then you don't have 10 years of lag while you shoot the two lasers ?
have you ever thought of holding L/R juste before doing a shdl, just in case you miss the jump button, then you don't have 10 years of lag while you shoot the two lasers ?
Silent Wolf
...
that reminds me, i still have the fox ditto set we did. it has that ugly green stuff onit so i never posted it lol. i might just post it
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
i can attest to how awesome this is
otto, post that **** lol. i deal with ugly purple **** all the time so im sure i can handle ugly green ****
lol but yea just put like, "silent wolf vs lovage lost footage" in the description and people will be like "ooo the ugly green **** is artifacts from rare secret footage that had to be salvaged via advanced video restoration techniques"
Lovage
Smash Hero
yea post that sht otto, and the one of you vs. mango if i remember it was fun to watch
i've been more into smash recently and as a result keep thinking of stuff about the game, fox, or fox's matchups. a lot of times i come to this thread cuz i want to write it down but people are talking about totally different stuff and i don't want to break the conversation.
would anyone be interested in reading a blog or something where i can write down some of the things i think about the game?
edit: some of my thoughts recently have been better ways to combo depending on stage position (platforms; what makes smash combos tight,) ways i approach matchups in my head and how it helps and what it feels like to be warmed up.
i've been more into smash recently and as a result keep thinking of stuff about the game, fox, or fox's matchups. a lot of times i come to this thread cuz i want to write it down but people are talking about totally different stuff and i don't want to break the conversation.
would anyone be interested in reading a blog or something where i can write down some of the things i think about the game?
edit: some of my thoughts recently have been better ways to combo depending on stage position (platforms; what makes smash combos tight,) ways i approach matchups in my head and how it helps and what it feels like to be warmed up.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
someone tell lovage he should do it
i can't talk to the cat anymore
i can't talk to the cat anymore
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
lovage just do it lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
just post it in here lovage.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Tomacawk
Smash Master
do it ******
WOW
ninja'd
also hivemind
WOW
ninja'd
also hivemind
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Yoshi is gay.
unknown522
Some guy
yeah, you're right, though I haven't watched it yet.
I had some terrible edgeguarding that set.
But yeah, I need some people practice.
Also, got any advice for that set? (Aside from edgeguarding. I know what to do already).
I can't really say I know many matchups. But when I theorize a matchup then I'm usually right (peach, ICs, ganon, falcon, mid tiers, low tiers). I'm just usually pretty good at exploiting bad characters weaknesses.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
lovage, i used to read forward's fox blog and it was pretty interesting. covered similar topics. he kinda stopped updating it though. so yeah, you should do it
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Or just get another sticky in the Fox forum :O
I'd read the **** out of it
I'd read the **** out of it
It is highly probable that I stationary laser on purpose in whatever instance you are referring to.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Isn't standing laser just like the worst <_< you can't even pull weird mindgames because of strange lack of lag like Falcon's Dsmash or Upsmash because the animation is just so slow and you don't even have a hitbox
Why would you ever standing laser on purpose @_@
Why would you ever standing laser on purpose @_@
Silly Kyle
Smash Champion
I thought I would ask the Fox boards...
What should Peach do if a Fox is running away laser camping??
What should Peach do if a Fox is running away laser camping??
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Well eventually he has to advance at some point ... so it's up to you to call his option select.
He's stupid if he allows himself to get backed into a corner anyways. If he does, call his jump, hit him when he runs through you, wait for the roll, and if he aerials then you're getting him to play your game.
He's stupid if he allows himself to get backed into a corner anyways. If he does, call his jump, hit him when he runs through you, wait for the roll, and if he aerials then you're getting him to play your game.