Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[KevinM]

Brookman, critique my love for you.

 

[FoxLisk]

when you're being edgeguarded by peach she uses downsmash, its sometimes useful to DI the first hit of Peachs Downsmash downwards, then let go. that way, the Dsmash sends you towards the middle of the stage instead of back off.

while this is good advice, i feel like i should mention that it only works if you're coming from high. coming low her dsmash will stage spike you. it's very easy to ledgetech, though.

 

[JPOBS]

yea only when ur falling down on her more or less

 

[KirbyKaze]

since we're talking about edgeguarding

Vs Fire Fox - do some kind of back air (sometimes this means ramboing them when they're offstage, vs Falco Shine is better obv because of no hitbox and other reasons), if they go straight for the edge horizontally and you're not on the edge for some reason then do D-smash. If they go straight into you when you're onstage and they're at kill percent it's easiest to U-smash. If they're below the stage coming up either drop and Shine them, or if they can walltech just ledgehop Dair over and over until they die or you can Bair them, or you can Shine them without them being able to walltech. At super low percents when they can't tech the D-smash, D-smash *****.

Vs Illusion - U-tilt as you hear the "ding" sound, or Nair as you hear it. If they're sweetspot height, D-smash. Grabbing the edge vs the sweetspot is also pretty good, you have a lot of ways to grab the edge while still covering other stuff (edgecancel Bair *****).

Vs Marth - If he's high you gotta fake him and hit him between his sword swings. He's probably not timing his moves with much care when he's coming down since he's trying to defend himself so you can also probably do something OoS. ALTERNATIVELY you can jump at him and Bair and gamble that he's trying to wait for you to do the first move and won't react in time, or assume that he's expecting you to not do anything because you're scared of being hit by his Counter or whatever if you go after him. The high recovery is somewhat complicated because if he Counters or hits you out of your Bair or whatever you lose the whole thing but if he does something without it hitting he's liable to die. Low is much easier. If he's low you just ledgehop Bair or lightshield-hog him. If he's low and has his jump just wait for him to stall with Side B (or for him to double jump) and then Bair or Shine him.

Vs Sheik - If she's really high Bair her, if she's reachable off ledgehop then ledgehop Bair her, if she's got her double jump and is recovering towards the edge just ledgehop Bair her. If she recovers near the edge without her double jump ledgehop Bair her before her invincibility (from either air-dodge or Up+B) kicks in; at worst if you miss her air-dodge and you do it early enough to JUST MISS IT you'll recover out of lag before her and you get a hit anyway. Otherwise you know the drill... wait for her to poof (compensate for her pull back if she does it) and then get onstage and **** her. Shine --> U-smash at like 85 will KO on pretty much every level but like Dreamland. Don't try to link Dair Shine from the ledge too often because it's easy to DI out of for her (they don't need to SDI most of the time to avoid the Shine because his DJ is huge). At low percents it's best to Uair on her with the second hit and then do a big combo... ideally it puts her back offstage. U-tilt is sometimes good too.

Vs Peach - idk I don't fight Peach often, probably just Shines and Bair though and maybe at like 85-90 if you can Uair her do it because it kills her at stupid low percent

Vs Falcon - lol just don't get fooled by the drift back thing.

Vs Ganon - Only real trick is that ledgehop Bair doesn't do anything to his high recovery at low percents because he'll just Uair after it coming down but otherwise everything works (it sounds really garbage but if he's in that situation of high recovery at relatively low percent, like below 30 or something, I find it's easier and usually worthwhile to just try and go for the biggest, most ridiculous combo I can get, which usually means ledgehop Uair and then let your imagination go crazy... ideally you put him back offstage, as usual). At like 95 (maybe higher, idk?) just let him land onstage and U-smash him for a KO, it's easier than trying to edgeguard him for a minute. Bair him out of his Wizard Foot if you can, it's usually pretty obvious when he has to/is going to do it.

Vs Samus - Ask Lovage.

Vs ICs - CC Shine, regular Shine, the variants of Bair, and U-smash should collectively never let solo Popo live against Fox. For the dual, either kill Nana and ignore Popo or use pro multitasking to kill both of them (Back air and Shine, basically). Remember that as good as Shine is, it also takes Nana out of tumble, and enables her to catch the Up+B or warp to Popo during Side B if they're within range. If she's in tumble, she can't do either (if she has her double jump she can free herself from tumble with it but if not she's completely dead if she can't get the edge). Versus Nana it can be worthwhile to just F-smash her and then F-smash/Bair/Shine her double jump if Popo is a good distance away.

NOTE: wait for Nana to be not invincible/a hitbox if you're gonna hit her out of Up+B

OBVIOUSLY you can do a lot more vs all these characters

but this is just what's easiest/usually works

 

[JPOBS]

good post david.

more about peach: its not always a great idea to bair her cuz with goood DI even at decent percents, they can use the knockback to recover from high and then theres nothing you can do.
if you're feeling good, jump out and shine her out of her float so she has to use her parachute. when she's recovering low and you can manage it, let her Up-B (many peaches will opt not to try to sweetspot cuz the priority on the umbrella is so good), and wavedash off the stage and shine her as she comes over the ledge. this is more situational and harder though. peach is hard to edgeguard :/


vs Pika: grab the ledge and ledgehop bair. pika cant sweetspot from below and his Up-B doesnt have a hitbox you should be concerned about, so he will almost always try to do some variant of angling the first part up, then the second part towards to the ledge. As long as you throw a hitbox in the way, he will run into it every single time. rinse repeat until death.
if he tries to go on stage and your ledge hop bair misses, he has tons of lag so just **** him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

if all else fails do bair it does 15 damage so it's okay

 

[omgwtfToph]

KirbyKaze: Your whole writeup on edgeguarding is detailed and helpful. Particularly the IC's bit, because I don't get to fight the IC's very often.
In addition to grabbing the ledge pre-emptively vs. other space animals, what do you think about stalling in your shine off the stage to set up for an edgeguard? You can audially confirm a forward+B recovery attempt and bair or nair (depending on which way you are facing) out of the shine to edgeguard that (as soon as you hear the "Ping"), and if they go in to their up+B instead, you can take the ledge and prepare to cover one or both options from the ledge like you normally would.

I've found a lot of success with the edgeguard; as far as I can tell the only danger is when you're edgeguarding Falco and you're a bit sloppy on reacting to his forward+B. Because it's much faster than Fox's, it's possible to react too slowly and get spiked (which usually results in YOU dying instead), but I think that this is entirely avoidable by just paying enough attention to reacting quickly. YOUR THOUGHTS??


Also, a fancy edgeguarding trick on FD that works really well particularly against Peach. Picked this up from playing
so much friggin FD Only in Japan.

Doublejump to the ledge from below such that you are in position to Doraki instant wall jump. Then you get massive horizontal coverage from the walljump, which is pretty sweet against unsuspecting Peaches who try to float out of range of your edgeguard.

I saw Connor do this in some matches on Youtube btw LOL.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shine stalling offstage to make an easier bair timing is fine. VA actually told me about it a while ago but I suck at it because I don't know how to do it. It's too hard loool.

I have no tech skill.

Walljump edgeguarding with doraki is also good if you have consistency with it. But I don't. So I don't do it loool. It's too hard.

These all sound very fancy. I don't do fancy.

 

[JPOBS]

theres a window of time after an airborne shine if you wait to long you can no longer jump out right?

 

[KirbyKaze]

sort of. either way you counter that by just holding b

i think you can only cancel the shine when the green reflect bubble is out so when that goes away and he's putting it away you can't jump out of it

so if you hold b to sustain the bubble you won't have that issue

go consult the fox hitbox thread to see what i mean, it's really simple

edit: that means there's a point where you can't cancel it on the ground too after it's been out for a bit

edit2:

this is what i'm talking about

 

[JPOBS]

lol so thats what i've been doing wrong.

just hold b. so simple.
im bad

 

[omgwtfToph]

You can always jump out of the shine, but after that period of time, you must be HOLDING B as you jump out of the shine. There are only two ways to do this; either jump out with up on the directional stick (while still holding B), or hold B with your thumb and jump out with your index finger on Y or X. I do the latter, because I'm used to jumping with my index finger for a lot of stuff. ("Claw" position)

The reason is because you cannot jump cancel the animation where Fox (or Falco) is letting the reflector down. But Fox/Falco has to be in the shine for a certain period of time before that animation ever happens, even if you tap B.When you normally jump out of a shine, e.g. when you waveshine, you're not sitting in the shine for long enough for that animation to occur, before you jump(or wavedash) out.

 

[Kanelol]

You can always jump out of the shine, but after that period of time, you must be HOLDING B as you jump out of the shine. There are only two ways to do this; either jump out with up on the directional stick (while still holding B), or hold B with your thumb and jump out with your index finger on Y or X. I do the latter, because I'm used to jumping with my index finger for a lot of stuff. ("Claw" position)

The reason is because you cannot jump cancel the animation where Fox (or Falco) is letting the reflector down. But Fox/Falco has to be in the shine for a certain period of time before that animation ever happens, even if you tap B.When you normally jump out of a shine, e.g. when you waveshine, you're not sitting in the shine for long enough for that animation to occur, before you jump(or wavedash) out.

thank you so so so so so much

i thought i was just bad

 

[Sinji]

How do you shield pressure falco?

 

[Brookman]

you don't since any slight opening on his shield (against better players) will open to an opposing shine out of shield which essentially kills you.

You're best off spacing aerials on him and punish his out of shield/roll/dodge

 

[TemPesT-]

you don't since any slight opening on his shield (against better players) will open to an opposing shine out of shield which essentially kills you.

You're best off spacing aerials on him and punish his out of shield/roll/dodge

Orrr perfect multishine until it Breaks!!!!.... just don't focus on shield pressure too much, try mixin in those shine jc grabs sometimes though. or just anything to grab if they are in shield, otherwise like brookman said, you get shined oos and then die

 

[KirbyKaze]

The late aerial - shine - early retreat aerial is alright vs Falco because as much as he hates to admit it, his shine OOS and shield grab ranges are small.

 

[Brookman]

The late aerial - shine - early retreat aerial is alright vs Falco because as much as he hates to admit it, his shine OOS and shield grab ranges are small.

Also true <3

don't go behind him though, bair > you, and definitely don't try to cross up with a wavedash through his shield. You can jump through his shield and aerial on the back side, if oyur opponent isnt too quick but this still pits you against his back air.

 

[omgwtfToph]

When Falco doesn't have a laser already on the field, Fox has the advantage in the matchup. Falco's slow short hop and his very high full jump also make it so that he has a tough time dealing with Fox full-jumping outside of his range. So like, full jump back airs spaced outside his shine range are really hard to punish. You can react to him trying to laser or aerial out of shield and act appropriately. Watch for his roll, too, cuz Falco has a really fast roll.

 

[unknown522]

double shine on falco's shield.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Nair shine-turn-around fade-away-bair into spaced bairs is pretty cool

 

[Brookman]

When Falco doesn't have a laser already on the field, Fox has the advantage in the matchup. Falco's slow short hop and his very high full jump also make it so that he has a tough time dealing with Fox full-jumping outside of his range. So like, full jump back airs spaced outside his shine range are really hard to punish. You can react to him trying to laser or aerial out of shield and act appropriately. Watch for his roll, too, cuz Falco has a really fast roll.

CC vs. fox is pro.

double shine on falco's shield.

**** that, double shine on falco's body. At the edge. out of a spaced shine, possibly out of up throw.

definitely into shine spikes.


same **** on sheik, but harder to pull off. ((Anything to get players in the air at the edge, from the shine so they can't take the edge with a fast fall etc.

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E75AWs2in9E

So I lost this 2-1 (only match I won that tournament by the way <_<)

I know that it's my tech skill that kept me from winning, but besides that, there's also something that made me lose. Can anyone tell me, beside my tech skill, what it was that I was doing oh so wrong?

 

[EC_Joey]

When Falco doesn't have a laser already on the field, Fox has the advantage in the matchup. Falco's slow short hop and his very high full jump also make it so that he has a tough time dealing with Fox full-jumping outside of his range. So like, full jump back airs spaced outside his shine range are really hard to punish. You can react to him trying to laser or aerial out of shield and act appropriately. Watch for his roll, too, cuz Falco has a really fast roll.

CC vs. fox is pro.

Asking for a grab/fsmash to the face.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E75AWs2in9E

So I lost this 2-1 (only match I won that tournament by the way <_<)

I know that it's my tech skill that kept me from winning, but besides that, there's also something that made me lose. Can anyone tell me, beside my tech skill, what it was that I was doing oh so wrong?

Poor spacing. You used full hop aerials a LOT, even when he wasn't in range of your aerials. You need to learn when you should and shouldn't be throwing out moves, because that was getting you punished hard. If it's really easy for your opponent to see where you're going to be, you're going to get beaten on.

Predictable recoveries. There were a few times when you recovered from slightly above and off-stage, and you chose to firefox straight into him instead of to the ledge or to the middle of the stage. Each time he'd just kick you off-stage again. If you're recovering from below the stage and hugging the side, you need to get that tech when he hits you with the dair or dsmash. Your illusions were mostly at laser-height. Sweetspot the edge with it more, and learn how to shorten it for more options with it.

Trouble with shield pressure and punishing out of shield. Every time he touched your shield, you ended up getting hit while trying to jump or grab out of shield. You shined out of shield a few times, but I don't think any of them hit. You either need to roll as soon as he hits your shield, or you need to keep your shield up until an opening in his pressure appears.

Your edgeguarding was fine for the most part, but you only got to demonstrate it a few times. You need to work on ways to get Falco off the stage.

Even if you had decent tech skill, I'm not sure if you would have won this. He was reading you pretty well, and you seemed to have lots of trouble dealing with what he was throwing at you. Regardless, tech skill would have helped out a lot. Work on short hopping your aerials and approaching with them, rather than full hopping and hoping he runs into your move. Work on your out of shield options like buffer rolling with cstick, shining out of shield, wavedashing out of shield, and short hop aerials out of shield.

 

[JPOBS]

falco CC vs fox's full jump gayness is pro

then fox starts to dair and get off.

then falco starts to uptilt which is slower and requires a little commitment,

then fox baits uptilt and grab/anything,

then falco..THE CIIIIIRRRCCCCLLEEE OFFF LIIIIFFFFFEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[omgwtfToph]

space bairs outside the range of falco's shine. that's like the gayest thing for falco to deal with in terms of pressure

edit: lol idk why brookman wrote what i said off with "cc vs fox is pro" when i clearly said to space ur **** outside the range of his shine. whatever lol

 

[ZeroUnderOne]

Sort of a dumb technical question. My running shine ~> Usmash out of shine is inconsistent because the shine seems to not come out half the time.

Am I suppose to wait for fox to crouch before he can shine or can he shine before the crouch (run animation~> crouch animation~> shine or run animation~>shine)?
Does the joystick have to go through neutral or can I slide it from forward to down?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Sort of a dumb technical question. My running shine ~> Usmash out of shine is inconsistent because the shine seems to not come out half the time.

Am I suppose to wait for fox to crouch before he can shine or can he shine before the crouch (run animation~> crouch animation~> shine or run animation~>shine)?
Does the joystick have to go through neutral or can I slide it from forward to down?

you have to crouch first, as soon as the crouch animation starts you can shine. you dont need to return to neutral position

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea homie, make sure its not out of initial dash(the fact that you are able to crouch.) or else you have to jc shine-upsmash. I dont know if that even hits.

 

[TemPesT-]

So for those of us that are NOT super insanely technical (not me, i'm ****in beast)

have any of you guys put time into trying, shield drops when on platforms and being pressured, into shines and then waveland after? it's much MUCH easier then Shine OOS and follow it up, since you just tilt your shield a little bit, then rotate down and mash the b button when you fall.. then you just wavedash basically, but it's technically a waveland, since your falling through... any thoughts?

 

[KAOSTAR]

What do you mean by pressured?

Like marth up tilting from below kinda pressure. or like falco pillaring u kinda pressure but on a platform?

If its the second 1 then ur better off doing a shine land from a shield drop. Its whats gonna happen most likely anyway. and you wavedash out.

but being completely honest, I find it alot easier to just time a jump when the shield stun ends vs trying to do some specific tilt that could possibly have some other effect if u mess up.

I can shield drop pretty consistently, not amazingly but 6.5-7/10. and I still dont know how it works.

 

[TemPesT-]

What do you mean by pressured?

Like marth up tilting from below kinda pressure. or like falco pillaring u kinda pressure but on a platform?

If its the second 1 then ur better off doing a shine land from a shield drop. Its whats gonna happen most likely anyway. and you wavedash out.

but being completely honest, I find it alot easier to just time a jump when the shield stun ends vs trying to do some specific tilt that could possibly have some other effect if u mess up.

I can shield drop pretty consistently, not amazingly but 6.5-7/10. and I still dont know how it works.

idk what you mean by shine land, but i mean so fox is clearly falling aka below the platform, you shine so your hitbox is still above the platform, thus hitting your foe who's ON the platform with you, and you just jump and waveland.

 

[KAOSTAR]

shine land is when you shine just about at platform height. since shine cancels all your vertical momentum, you stop rising just barely above the platform. Its like a jump cancel shine where you fall for 1 frames b4 u can shine again, except you do it on a platform.

normally its done by jumping from below the platform, but when u shield drop and shine immediately you will start to fall through, but then you wont and u will be on the platform shining as per normal. in which case u would have to wavedash because you are grounded.

 

[TemPesT-]

shine land is when you shine just about at platform height. since shine cancels all your vertical momentum, you stop rising just barely above the platform. Its like a jump cancel shine where you fall for 1 frames b4 u can shine again, except you do it on a platform.

normally its done by jumping from below the platform, but when u shield drop and shine immediately you will start to fall through, but then you wont and u will be on the platform shining as per normal. in which case u would have to wavedash because you are grounded.

well then sure, if you do it fast enough. a shine land. otherwise fall shine, waveland.

 

[KAOSTAR]

yea. Im just saying if u are trying to maximize frames, you dont wanna waste any time falling and a lil bit of time jumping back up so u can waveland.

plus from a shine land you still have the ability to sh and u dont have to dj if u choose to follow up with something different.

 

[Falcinho]

space bairs outside the range of falco's shine. that's like the gayest thing for falco to deal with in terms of pressure

edit: lol idk why brookman wrote what i said off with "cc vs fox is pro" when i clearly said to space ur **** outside the range of his shine. whatever lol

If you spam this Falco can start doing stuff like WD back fsmash though

 

[RaynEX]

So for those of us that are NOT super insanely technical (not me, i'm ****in beast)

have any of you guys put time into trying, shield drops when on platforms and being pressured, into shines and then waveland after? it's much MUCH easier then Shine OOS and follow it up, since you just tilt your shield a little bit, then rotate down and mash the b button when you fall.. then you just wavedash basically, but it's technically a waveland, since your falling through... any thoughts?

Its a great idea, just maybe its not for everyone. Last time I tried it vs. KK he dsmashed me and I had no jump. I shined, it missed, and he hit me as I was trying to waveland. I died shortly after. Same thing happens when he spaces ftilts or bairs on my shield. If my jump gets randomly clipped its GG. Especially seeing as you're on a platform, there is ample time for your opponent to hit you before you touch the ground (thus comboing you to death for not having a jump).

falco CC vs fox's full jump gayness is pro

then fox starts to dair and get off.

then falco starts to uptilt which is slower and requires a little commitment,

then fox baits uptilt and grab/anything,

then falco..THE CIIIIIRRRCCCCLLEEE OFFF LIIIIFFFFFEEEEEEEEEEEE

When Falco is lasering under a platform there is no circle. There is no life. Only death.

space bairs outside the range of falco's shine. that's like the gayest thing for falco to deal with in terms of pressure

He can CC spaced bairs into pretty much anything else though. For all that effort of escaping of the shine, we're left with CC: any smash and down/forward tilt. Falcos these days just hold down and good things tend to happen. Obviously we should still spam spaced bair as usual because its pretty **** safe otherwise.

 

[PB&J]

double shine on falco's shield.

this..plus i shine grab him too..delay nairs to reverse up tilt..if you do this right they can do anything oos since fox is faster than him

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just be really aggressive and **** him god you guys are over-complicating everything

 

[Rubyiris]

Just be really aggressive and **** him god you guys are over-complicating everything

kk is clearly the best fox.