omgwtfToph
Smash Master
brookman critique my vids yo >_>
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
literally the last post i made. ._.
mast the 'Aerial > side step dodge'
or get amazing at timing the **** vs. grabs.
Honestly, you start that first game first stock off soo well. I really thought you were gona four stock him.
After he got that first grab you seemed to lose your edge completely.
Continue practicing your lasers. You can definitely increase your mobility and eventually do retreating shdl. You start to get stale with your lasers towards the end.
I love that laser to grab on his shield. >_>
your light shield mind grape for the first kill was great.
when you jump around on that second stock of his it cost you cause you eliminate your mobility.
note how often you jump to approach/evade during his first stock (only once, with that back air)
you almost exclusively dash dance, I think this is a great style here. Though I feel he's being overly cautious as marth here, as well as his CG/throw combos being poor.
Definitely find your way into landing more drills and shines.
drill/shine to grab is perfect. If he starts Smash DI'ing a lot throw in some back airs and cross up for his DI.
Definitely don't jump at him. If anything, get comfortable on the edge. vs marth while he's invincible. You seem ok @ the ledge dash so ... go with that and see what it leads to..
The other day vs. Cort's marth I tried using Up and B to intercept his high recovery with some success. It's tricky to describe how I used it I'll see if I can get some consistent results and get them recorded.
I think your tech is solid enough but can still be improved.
DI'ing the up tilt in a CG is really important. I consistently can you get out with the shine like that? (~:43)
I am literally just watching this movie over and over right now.
See how he spaces with down tilt?? you can easily nail those. Get comfortable punishing down tilts.
@RaynEX: You have to BAIR on the way up to fast fall and auto cancel. If you place Bair @ the peak of your jump and fast fall in tandem you have to L cancel, I tested this out after that response of yours.
massively unorganized post is too good.
do be extra careful with your jumps since its so easy for marth to punish you for it.
!! :: @ 1:25 if you had just taken the edge instead of randy shine spiking you would have that stock (obviously?)
When you are pinned in the corner take the edge for invincibility and waveland back. See how fast you can do this.
Wavedash off stage FF edge Hop WAVE LAND (insert command option*)
*roll, grab, shine, shield, up smash, up tilt, f tilt, down tilt, f smash, down smash. . .
to name a few decent potential commands.
Count how many grabs you get in game one. count how many lead to successful up airs.
@ ~1:22 you drill grab up throw up air and chase him at a sub-optimal percent, considering his DI. @ this point I believe I would opt for lasers. when a character is in a situation like this they usually just fall back to the stage so it is an ideal time to nail them with 3-4 lasers.
I used to joke with some players from around here that if I hit with 4 lasers in a descent like that I won XD.
Anyway, my point here: Don't chase or at least chase in a more realistic way. for example, when you do your first jump, instead of double jumping here you can fast fall. Your jump here can easily pressure them into an aerial wich would be punishable now, since you've reclaimed the ground.
Ultimately, the game is based on your judgment. You do what you feel you should and that's that.
pro-tip: when you use your dash away you don't need to dash back in immediately.
Did I already mention how desperate the forward b @ :43 seconds looks???
I just spent ~30 minutes expounding upon the first half of this video alone.
>_______________________________________________________>
or get amazing at timing the **** vs. grabs.
Honestly, you start that first game first stock off soo well. I really thought you were gona four stock him.
After he got that first grab you seemed to lose your edge completely.
Continue practicing your lasers. You can definitely increase your mobility and eventually do retreating shdl. You start to get stale with your lasers towards the end.
I love that laser to grab on his shield. >_>
your light shield mind grape for the first kill was great.
when you jump around on that second stock of his it cost you cause you eliminate your mobility.
note how often you jump to approach/evade during his first stock (only once, with that back air)
you almost exclusively dash dance, I think this is a great style here. Though I feel he's being overly cautious as marth here, as well as his CG/throw combos being poor.
Definitely find your way into landing more drills and shines.
drill/shine to grab is perfect. If he starts Smash DI'ing a lot throw in some back airs and cross up for his DI.
Definitely don't jump at him. If anything, get comfortable on the edge. vs marth while he's invincible. You seem ok @ the ledge dash so ... go with that and see what it leads to..
The other day vs. Cort's marth I tried using Up and B to intercept his high recovery with some success. It's tricky to describe how I used it I'll see if I can get some consistent results and get them recorded.
I think your tech is solid enough but can still be improved.
DI'ing the up tilt in a CG is really important. I consistently can you get out with the shine like that? (~:43)
I am literally just watching this movie over and over right now.
See how he spaces with down tilt?? you can easily nail those. Get comfortable punishing down tilts.
@RaynEX: You have to BAIR on the way up to fast fall and auto cancel. If you place Bair @ the peak of your jump and fast fall in tandem you have to L cancel, I tested this out after that response of yours.
massively unorganized post is too good.
do be extra careful with your jumps since its so easy for marth to punish you for it.
!! :: @ 1:25 if you had just taken the edge instead of randy shine spiking you would have that stock (obviously?)
When you are pinned in the corner take the edge for invincibility and waveland back. See how fast you can do this.
Wavedash off stage FF edge Hop WAVE LAND (insert command option*)
*roll, grab, shine, shield, up smash, up tilt, f tilt, down tilt, f smash, down smash. . .
to name a few decent potential commands.
Count how many grabs you get in game one. count how many lead to successful up airs.
@ ~1:22 you drill grab up throw up air and chase him at a sub-optimal percent, considering his DI. @ this point I believe I would opt for lasers. when a character is in a situation like this they usually just fall back to the stage so it is an ideal time to nail them with 3-4 lasers.
I used to joke with some players from around here that if I hit with 4 lasers in a descent like that I won XD.
Anyway, my point here: Don't chase or at least chase in a more realistic way. for example, when you do your first jump, instead of double jumping here you can fast fall. Your jump here can easily pressure them into an aerial wich would be punishable now, since you've reclaimed the ground.
Ultimately, the game is based on your judgment. You do what you feel you should and that's that.
pro-tip: when you use your dash away you don't need to dash back in immediately.
Did I already mention how desperate the forward b @ :43 seconds looks???
I just spent ~30 minutes expounding upon the first half of this video alone.
>_______________________________________________________>
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I like some of your movements alot toph. keep it up. you should be pretty beast when you return.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
brookman is like the best person ever btw
edit: thanks kline. notice anything specific? and yeah, I'm aiming for the bracket at genesis 2. im bout to carry bobacks tv in his truck again. then get all the money and all the *****es. real talk
edit: thanks kline. notice anything specific? and yeah, I'm aiming for the bracket at genesis 2. im bout to carry bobacks tv in his truck again. then get all the money and all the *****es. real talk
Kanelol
Smash Lord
i lawlercopter'd
Sinji
Smash Master
After a dair>shine should I nair?
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
sometimes. it's never good to do the same pressure over and over, but when you do the nair, gotta make sure you either delay it or fade away early as you do it. watch mango.
edit; jk this isn't the falco boards. oh well, same can still apply..right? lol
edit2; do you mean hitting their shield? or landing a drillshine and nairing them while they're on the ground? confuzzled.
edit; jk this isn't the falco boards. oh well, same can still apply..right? lol
edit2; do you mean hitting their shield? or landing a drillshine and nairing them while they're on the ground? confuzzled.
Sinji
Smash Master
Oh I see. Mango usually dash dance back then forward to nair.
edit I mean drillshine and nairing them while they're on the ground. I was too lazy when I typed the first time.
edit I mean drillshine and nairing them while they're on the ground. I was too lazy when I typed the first time.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
are they in their shield or not?
If they're in their shield, yeah sure, do it
if they're not in their shield, then ... I used to think this was a cool combo option but it kind of depends on the character. like marth can CC grab you after the nair even when it looks like he can't so.... idk I'd rather just grab for example, against him
If they're in their shield, yeah sure, do it
if they're not in their shield, then ... I used to think this was a cool combo option but it kind of depends on the character. like marth can CC grab you after the nair even when it looks like he can't so.... idk I'd rather just grab for example, against him
Sinji
Smash Master
Yea in shield.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
wait, but you just said on the ground lol. what i meant, was the drill connects, so you shine, they fall (depending on floaty or not), and then you nair? but i guess you mean, you drill, they shield, you shine, they're still shielding, then you wanna nair? sorry i'm making this harder than it needs to be lol.
Silent Wolf
...
toph, try not to double jump vs marth on fd.
also, i saw some times where youd try to run at him and up smash or something and itd miss when you could dash cancel jab then dash jc grab them. it works 100% of the time for me (example: after you did a nair and tried to cashe and usmash him before he hit the ground)
in match 7 i saw you do some weird run across the stage fsmash thing, dont do that >.> dont try to plan things as unreliable as that so far in advance. idk you probably know that already lol
you do that land then shine thing a lot. switch it up with land grabs. land shine sh fade away bair is ****. stall a bit in the shine if they arent facing you and arent spacies.
if marth hits you and youre about to land immediately behind him, never tech in place. teaching away the first time usually works, then switch it up from there.
sometimes you come at him after you hit him when its not completely safe, dont do that, especially vs marth on fd. you can dash dance and try to bait something or run up and shield before he lands cuz marths usually fair in that situation. just start recognizing when its not a completely safe combo, it helped me a lot.
also, i saw some times where youd try to run at him and up smash or something and itd miss when you could dash cancel jab then dash jc grab them. it works 100% of the time for me (example: after you did a nair and tried to cashe and usmash him before he hit the ground)
in match 7 i saw you do some weird run across the stage fsmash thing, dont do that >.> dont try to plan things as unreliable as that so far in advance. idk you probably know that already lol
you do that land then shine thing a lot. switch it up with land grabs. land shine sh fade away bair is ****. stall a bit in the shine if they arent facing you and arent spacies.
if marth hits you and youre about to land immediately behind him, never tech in place. teaching away the first time usually works, then switch it up from there.
sometimes you come at him after you hit him when its not completely safe, dont do that, especially vs marth on fd. you can dash dance and try to bait something or run up and shield before he lands cuz marths usually fair in that situation. just start recognizing when its not a completely safe combo, it helped me a lot.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
thanks a lot otto. it blows my mind how much your experience shows.
i'm going to experiment more with empty short hops, especially against people like that (MARS) who play very reactively. going back, i noticed that 100% of my empty short hop attempts worked (none of them got read and punished). and i kept coming down with stupid aerials - if i ever find myself in the air against marth in an awkward situation, i'll remember to mix it up a lot better with wavelands. although i guess optimally i shouldn't ever be in the air against a marth on the ground haha (double jumping)
i'm going to experiment more with empty short hops, especially against people like that (MARS) who play very reactively. going back, i noticed that 100% of my empty short hop attempts worked (none of them got read and punished). and i kept coming down with stupid aerials - if i ever find myself in the air against marth in an awkward situation, i'll remember to mix it up a lot better with wavelands. although i guess optimally i shouldn't ever be in the air against a marth on the ground haha (double jumping)
Kanelol
Smash Lord
I feel, pretty strongly, that our current topic is not something you can garner any sort of tangible result from by discussing it. It is all about technical execution, on top of optimal decision making.
is that clear? I'm not sure I am being clear enough in that first statement.
There are players, competent players, whom you can forward (this definitely works better with falco though) smash all day.
I wouldn't recommend trying to do that in a tournament setting though.
I just want to share with everyone: I lost a tournament set recently because I was unable to execute a JC Up smash. we're @ a high percent, fox vs. falco. I land a weak move, he misses his tech, I run over and at the very last second I . . . full jump up air.
He recovers by this point and back airs me and I die. :]
never mess up the easy kills.
is that clear? I'm not sure I am being clear enough in that first statement.
There are players, competent players, whom you can forward (this definitely works better with falco though) smash all day.
I wouldn't recommend trying to do that in a tournament setting though.
I just want to share with everyone: I lost a tournament set recently because I was unable to execute a JC Up smash. we're @ a high percent, fox vs. falco. I land a weak move, he misses his tech, I run over and at the very last second I . . . full jump up air.
He recovers by this point and back airs me and I die. :]
never mess up the easy kills.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
pulled a page out of my book huh brookman?
jc usmash is soooo hard
jc usmash is soooo hard
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
are you talking about the vs. marth stuff? the vids I posted?
cuz i feel pretty strongly that a lot of people get stuck BECAUSE they don't know how to put their experience into words or vice versa (putting discussion into practice)
i learned a lot from talking with otto in person when we used to smash a lot too
and yeah dude easy kills lol. the exact same thing happened to me pretty recently.
that's why my goal is twofold right now:
1. tighten up my execution to minimize my mistakes. i only practice the essentials these days - a LOT of ledgedashing, for example. that's the worst one imo because EVERYONE ****s it up once in a while, but it's arguably THE best option from the ledge (since you keep invincibility frames) but when you **** it up you die
2. to get good enough at the game to where, even if I mess up once in a while, I'm so obviously better than my opponents that it doesn't matter that my 3-stock turned into a 2-stock
there's no point lamenting over what "coulda been" if only your tech skill was a little more solid... if you're a good enough player then the game wouldn't have been so close in the first place
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
lol then i agree
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i feel pretty strongly that one thing seperating a lot of good players from truely top level contenders, is edgeguarding.
often overlooked and rarely discussed, because its pretty boring and perfectly explainable "if they do X, do Y. if they do A, do B"
but even great players drop edgeguards.
Im going to focus my playtime in the near future to never mess up an edgeguard ever.
often overlooked and rarely discussed, because its pretty boring and perfectly explainable "if they do X, do Y. if they do A, do B"
but even great players drop edgeguards.
Im going to focus my playtime in the near future to never mess up an edgeguard ever.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
well, there are going to be certain situations where you can't cover every option... it's just like techchasing. sometimes you have to pick and choose, and hope you read your opponent correctly
THE PROBLEM is that people very often drop GUARANTEED edgeguards (where they can cover multiple options but don't), or, more commonly, don't mix up their edgeguarding well enough.
How often do you see a space animal in his firefox/firebird off the stage, where they could go high or sweetspot the ledge, and the opponent just stands there, giving away the ledge for free? ALL THE TIME.
And sometimes people don't know when they should/could get a guaranteed edgeguard off the stage... or when it's better to edgeguard from the stage. (matchup specific, and person specific)
THE PROBLEM is that people very often drop GUARANTEED edgeguards (where they can cover multiple options but don't), or, more commonly, don't mix up their edgeguarding well enough.
How often do you see a space animal in his firefox/firebird off the stage, where they could go high or sweetspot the ledge, and the opponent just stands there, giving away the ledge for free? ALL THE TIME.
And sometimes people don't know when they should/could get a guaranteed edgeguard off the stage... or when it's better to edgeguard from the stage. (matchup specific, and person specific)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
lol edgeguard mixups
ledgehop bair son
ledgehop bair son
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Agreed with pretty much all of what you said.
and yea, people are STILL letting spacies sweetspot from above for free. its really dumb.
and i facepalm everytime a falcon gets back on because they did the lame DI-in-DI-out thing, thats the dumbest thing ever.
edit: lol KK.
and yea, people are STILL letting spacies sweetspot from above for free. its really dumb.
and i facepalm everytime a falcon gets back on because they did the lame DI-in-DI-out thing, thats the dumbest thing ever.
edit: lol KK.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
i am definitely not complaining >___>
hmmm /10
Winston
Smash Master
you can't always stop a firefox sweetspot from above on reaction though while covering all illusion options.
To stop it at the good angles you have to hit them while the fire is charging/intercept the firefox path, walk all the way up to the edge and fsmash, edgehog, or ledgehop a bair timed to hit it. Grabbing the edge gives up illusions onto platforms, walk up to the edge fsmash gives up firefoxing straight, and jumping out to intercept requires you to predict that they're going to do it usually.
I agree that people give up that angle for free too often, but I don't know of a way to edgeguard that in a guaranteed way.
To stop it at the good angles you have to hit them while the fire is charging/intercept the firefox path, walk all the way up to the edge and fsmash, edgehog, or ledgehop a bair timed to hit it. Grabbing the edge gives up illusions onto platforms, walk up to the edge fsmash gives up firefoxing straight, and jumping out to intercept requires you to predict that they're going to do it usually.
I agree that people give up that angle for free too often, but I don't know of a way to edgeguard that in a guaranteed way.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
firefox/bird have a fair amount of startup time, i dont think jumping out and hitting them takes much prediction, just a little reaction.
Winston
Smash Master
Yeah but if they are smart they won't do it super close. Fox isn't the fastest horizontally in the air, so you'd have to start jumping out there pretty early on. He's not as good at going out there to hit firefoxes as Falcon or even Marth, I think.
mers
Smash Ace
None of these work consistently (except grabbing the ledge). It depends on the angle and such. There's actually quite a bit of wiggle room in terms of which angle you can use to sweetspot. If they go as low as possible, they can get by almost anything.
I usually ledgehop a really low bair, so that it covers sweetspot as well as Firefox straight onto the stage. If they go up, I try to hit them when they come back down.
battousai555
Smash Ace
Not pressing R/L all the way down makes aerials so much easier! I know most people already know this, but to those who haven't tried it I highly recommend it. I wish I had learned how to do it like that much sooner : /
Guys, how should I DI when hit by: peach's d-smash, marth's u-tilt, Falco's dair->shine (or any other mean attack that will get me ***** if I don't DI correctly)? Many thanks.
Guys, how should I DI when hit by: peach's d-smash, marth's u-tilt, Falco's dair->shine (or any other mean attack that will get me ***** if I don't DI correctly)? Many thanks.
Kanelol
Smash Lord
I don't know about any of those other ones, but for u-tilt, DI behind marth. Like along with the swing of the sword. If you DI against it, or straight up or down, you're set up to get combo'd into another u-tilt
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
10 chars
JPOBS
Smash Hero
when you're being edgeguarded by peach she uses downsmash, its sometimes useful to DI the first hit of Peachs Downsmash downwards, then let go. that way, the Dsmash sends you towards the middle of the stage instead of back off.
Winston
Smash Master
Where to DI falco's shine depends mostly on your position relative to the platforms/the edge.