Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Brookman]

i am not revolutionizing falco i just choose be as bad as possible.

dude, you should just try kirby. I here he's good if you're just trying to lose as hard as possible. (y)

 

[TemPesT-]

I mean they never land from the shines. I'd like some input from the really good fox players about that ledge guard set up, I think it has massive potential but my post seems to be being ignored for the most part

sounds pretty hard unless your SW lol

 

[Tomacawk]

It isn't that hard...if you can waveshine backwards then you can do it.
your brain is your limitations. if you believe, you can be. just practice

 

[unknown522]

how do approach marth? if anyone has a vid they can show me please post it.

*waits for zen to upload most recent vids vs IB*

I'm just going to say it without a video because this thread sucks so much and we need something to talk about.
Against fox and falco, if you get a grab with your back 2-3 wavedashes away from the ledge, do the obvious and upthrow. If they miss their DI, shine them at the very tip of your shine so that it bounces them up and behind you. Waveshine backwards and shine them again--this will send them off the stage and into a ledge guard opportunity (bonus points if you can doubleshine them). Depending on where you hit them with the second [double]shine, they may not be able to double jump high enough to side b. Ledge guard and take the early stock. This is a great set up because it works at low-mid %s and it allows you to put yourself in a great ledge guarding position in a manner which you couldn't achieve with any other moves/combos.
It may take you a little practice to get the timing of the first shine right, and it requires you to have fast and long backwards waveshines, but this is imo a really solid set up that afaik hasn't been done before.
If you've seen the clip of SDM waveshine a fox with fox on corneria, then you already know this is possible.

I actually do that sometimes. The thing is, that the distance you are talking about, they can DI down + away and hit the edge, before you can hit them again. If they DI wrong/don't DI the shine, then it'll work fine.

 

[dashdancedan]

If your shine hits them up like that near the edge you can shine bair or doubleshine them for the same effect + I think it's a lot easier than wavedashing backwards out of shine and shining them again.

But that's just personal preference.

 

[KAOSTAR]

If your shine hits them up like that near the edge you can shine bair or doubleshine them for the same effect + I think it's a lot easier than wavedashing backwards out of shine and shining them again.

But that's just personal preference.

at lower percents don't shine bair unless you are showing off.

shine will always have more knock back until middish and off a double shine seems to have a better angle than bair.

ive messed up gimps because I hit with shine bair from the ledge.

 

[dashdancedan]

You could shine sh bair and shine again if they DI up at lower percents >_>

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol @ separating shine and sh bair like its different from a shine bair from the ground.

isn't that harder than up throw and wave shining backwards which was your reason for an alternative method? and a bit more situational for you to be in that good of stage position at such a low percent to where you can combo off a standing shine bair.

@tomacawk-I never tried that as a gimp but it looked cool when alex19 did it into shine up smash.

 

[falcojackolantern]

shine back air is better than shine you do not know what you are talking about. do you even play fox?

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol, you seem to play falco.

at low percents the bair will have less desirable knock back then the set knock back on the shine. also hitting with a certain part of the shine has a more downward angle which is harder to recover from than the positive angle on the bair.

 

[falcojackolantern]

i play both probly better than you. if you shine short hopped back air them you can just short hop over them with regular a in the air and they cant jump or nothing

 

[FoxLisk]

i play both probly better than you. if you shine short hopped back air them you can just short hop over them with regular a in the air and they cant jump or nothing

don't start insulting regulars until you have some idea of what you're getting into. you're just going to get **** on for saying you play better than others while clearly having no idea what you're talking about.

 

[mastermoo420]

Dude, don't even listen to this guy. He's the guy who wants to play a Falco without using lasers. He has no idea what he's saying at all.

 

[Tomacawk]

...I never thought I would say this, but I'm about to unsubscribe
Raynex we need that new thread ASAP!!!!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I can't even comprehend what he's saying.

Guys, i've hit a block where i ahve a real problem with Final Destination. I guess i rely on platforms for alot of my movement, especially to avoid lasers and to bait stuff, so much that i can't work well on FD.

*sigh*

 

[TemPesT-]

the peach match up is gay. i know you guys cover it all the time ( or so it seems ) but as soon as im sitting there playing a peach, my mind just blanks, and i eat 5 downsmashes in a row. ( i still actually won most of my matches vs the peach, but my falco did a lot better, and it was easier =/ )

 

[KAOSTAR]

edit. double post

 

[KAOSTAR]

na falcojackolantern is right.

 

[joeplicate]

so i had a huuuuuge post, but it was mostly crap. here's the condensed version.


my thoughts about peach:
we play the matchup in an outdated way. maybe shdl, bair, bair, upsmash/upair worked in 2006, but now peach has gotten too fast. peach's nair is good enough to compete with almost everything, and wd back (against shffl approaches) works on reaction, and leads to a free punish. you don't wanna get punished by peach.

stop camping!
even if it's good on paper, it's terrible when almost any human tries. fox thinks "run on platforms, fullhop laser here, shdl now, shl now, ...." but peach just thinks "oh he's camping. i'll wait until he does something dumb, and then **** him."

when we try to camp, we stretch ourselves too thin. fox drops focus on the push-and-pull of the game, so peach looks into it extra hard. either nobody camps smart enough, or humans get predictable when they start camping: peach waits for something predictable, punishes, then takes control of the match hard. now, you're down in percentage AND you're scared because you're getting read.

it's a bad trade both statistically and emotionally. "campy fox" usually means "scared fox," and it's really easy to read. i haven't seen a video of a high-level peach getting destroyed by a high-level fox who ONLY camps. jman vs vwins? chokesies! m2k trying to platform camp battlefield at apex! wow, does he get ****ed up when he comes down!

know what i have seen? mango vs armada!
smart and aggressive is what you need. all the staples are still there, but be careful about when you use them. mix it up, mix it up, mix it up! fox players need to stop coming at this matchup from such a technical perspective, and start engaging it from a human perspective! nair shield pressure vs dair shield pressure? vs dair shine vs nair shine? grabs? lasers? they're all there, but you need to MIX IT UP.

peach can counter each of these things individually, but by pressing your advantage (playing aggressive), you confuse your opponent and make it a LOT harder to counterattack out of shield. (or more broadly, from a bad position.)

instead of camping, play smart! that's the most important thing in the whole game. BAIT peach's options and then use reactions to PUNISH them, FAST. fox is a faster character than peach, but only movement-wise! nair oos comes out about as fast as anything. by keeping the game moving super fast, and by staying in her space to punish her whiffs, you can keep the match in your favor!


end post!

i've never seen an example of camping vs peach that convinced me. link away though, i'm happy to discuss them!

also, i can't really refute an argument that says "we're just not GOOD enough to camp peach and make it work 100% like it should. at the tippest of toppest levels, it's still better than playing legit." my response? cool! keep at it if you want. in the meantime, i haven't even seen any evidence of progress in that direction, and i'm gonna be trying to play smart and get better while you shoot lasers and run away!

seriously though, i think that all of melee comes down to the approach game. that's why it's so important to keep your spacing--it's the best way to learn, it's the best "neutral position" to make reads from and punish your opponent from, and you can run away OR attack depending on the situation. it's the best everything! don't forget about it!

it's late now, i'm gonna go to bed! peace!

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

^ thats why i dont camp lol... ****s ****in boring and it just ruins your playstyle and it hinders your learning curve... unless you're jman i guess

 

[Kanelol]

is it possible to double shine bair

 

[mastermoo420]

step 1. short hop (i guess you can try full jump since you're so bad ;p)
step 2. at the peak of your jump you press down
step 3. release down and press a
step 4. l-cancel.
step 5. shine and other variations.
step 6. repeat.


I believe in you!!

it may be easier as falco or if you use down air

Okay, brookman, here's some frame data (just realized the Stratocaster thing had everything I needed):

1  - On ground
2  - On ground
3  - On ground
4  - Airbourne
5  - Airbourne
6  - Airbourne
7  - Airbourne
8  - Airbourne
9  - Airbourne
10 - Airbourne
11 - Airbourne
12 - Fast-fall
13 - Start n-air
14 - ...
15 - ... 
16 - n-air comes out
17 - can L-cancel

This is a SH-FF'd n-air, given that you FF on the first possible frame and you can L-cancel right when the n-air comes out and still make it valid. L-cancel doesn't even matter, anyways. Why? You land on the fifteenth frame. SHFFL'd n-air with the FF first isn't even possible. All of Fox's other aerials come out slower, save the b-air which also comes out in four frames. I don't see how this is "standard practice" for a Fox, then.

 

[Brookman]

well, you can still do it with fox, just not in a short hop.

****IN SUE ME KID.

 

[mastermoo420]

FINE, I WILL

Nah, but I just really wanted to point this out not to call you out or anything, but I was just wondering, I guess. It just kinda makes me feel better than I'm not inadequate.

 

[Brookman]

you can still fast fall first in a full jump, when jumping off a platform, when falling through a platform, when jumping off the edge.

 

[unknown522]

alright, I found out why that shine -> grab works on spacies, where you pick them up off the ground.

 

[KAOSTAR]

alright, I found out why that shine -> grab works on spacies, where you pick them up off the ground.

so I guess you are waiting for someone to ask before you share lol.

 

[JPOBS]

i think camping is good vs peach when used well. but the rushdown tactic works well too cuz thats what raynex does and he was doing well vs Armada in friendlies at apex. guess it depend son you're playstyle.

/late response

 

[Brookman]

alright, I found out why that shine -> grab works on spacies, where you pick them up off the ground.

you catch them off the bounce, if I recall correctly.

if there is a more technical explanation i'm all ears.

 

[mastermoo420]

That's what I've heard, too. Are there any special pre-requisites? Such as hitting with a certain part of a shine or a certain window "frame?" And, as for the former half of the Thunder's combo (waveshine > jab), do you need to walk a little or does a perfect WD + jab's hitbox length satisfy the length required to reset?

 

[unknown522]

so I guess you are waiting for someone to ask before you share lol.

sorry, I had just arrived to KK's place and we left for chinese food before 4:00, so I had to cut the post short.

you catch them off the bounce, if I recall correctly.

if there is a more technical explanation i'm all ears.

naw. Before I made a post saying that you pick him up when they are getting up. I was told that I was wrong, but actually I was sort of right. For some reason, this game is really dumb sometimes and when fox and falco are laying on their back, their backwards getup roll doesn't have invincibility on the start of it (only the spacies. No other character has this). You can CG lv1 CPUs with d-throw as well, because when you are close to lv1 CPUs, they almost always try to roll away from you. If they do the getup attack though, it won't work.

 

[Kanelol]

And, as for the former half of the Thunder's combo (waveshine > jab), do you need to walk a little or does a perfect WD + jab's hitbox length satisfy the length required to reset?

Depends on DI and how fast the WD comes out. Usually just WD --> Jab works, but if you have to you can walk a little bit. Of course, you might accidentally forward tilt. Or give them enough time to roll. :\

 

[RaynEX]

I'm just going to say it without a video because this thread sucks so much and we need something to talk about.
Against fox and falco, if you get a grab with your back 2-3 wavedashes away from the ledge, do the obvious and upthrow. If they miss their DI, shine them at the very tip of your shine so that it bounces them up and behind you. Waveshine backwards and shine them again--this will send them off the stage and into a ledge guard opportunity (bonus points if you can doubleshine them). Depending on where you hit them with the second [double]shine, they may not be able to double jump high enough to side b. Ledge guard and take the early stock. This is a great set up because it works at low-mid %s and it allows you to put yourself in a great ledge guarding position in a manner which you couldn't achieve with any other moves/combos.
It may take you a little practice to get the timing of the first shine right, and it requires you to have fast and long backwards waveshines, but this is imo a really solid set up that afaik hasn't been done before.
If you've seen the clip of SDM waveshine a fox with fox on corneria, then you already know this is possible.

Unknown and I have been doing this for a few years.

Practice makes perfect compelled me try every possible follow-up after uthrow shine. A second shine was almost always the best option. Good players tech uthrow shine now...sigh


Great post on Peach Joe!

 

[wiseguy1224]

In Super smash Bros 64, how do you do fast shines with fox? (canceling?)

 

[mastermoo420]

You do them by asking in the appropriate forums:
http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

this is the wrong thread for that question, but im gonna tell you anyways lol

in 64, fox's shine is canceled when you hit the ground

so you have to jump, then shine, wait for it to hit the ground, and it cancels. rinse and repeat for waveshining lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

naw. Before I made a post saying that you pick him up when they are getting up. I was told that I was wrong, but actually I was sort of right. For some reason, this game is really dumb sometimes and when fox and falco are laying on their back, their backwards getup roll doesn't have invincibility on the start of it (only the spacies. No other character has this). You can CG lv1 CPUs with d-throw as well, because when you are close to lv1 CPUs, they almost always try to roll away from you. If they do the getup attack though, it won't work.

oh wow, so you're grabbing them out of their roll away!? that is bizarre haha. thanks for posting that, that's pretty interesting


and vs peach, yeah, I think your lasers in that matchup should be used to make peach feel like she has to do something. maybe my perception of this matchup is a bit different since I play it on FD only, but IMO that makes it both a harder matchup and a more enriching matchup in 2 ways

1. it's impossible to camp lol, you can't runaway from a peach on FD. you just get backed up into a corner and suddenly she's floating next to you ahhh

2. you **** up, you get grabbed and lose a stock (or you get naired at 120%)

so like, you use your lasers to kind of let the peach know "ok, the ball's in your court" and then you smack her for doing anything. Like, I sort of think that, in this game (and possibly all fighting games) the worst mentality you can have is the mentality that you "have" to do something. like when someone is behind and feels that they have to attack, attack, attack, they're just gonna run into dumb **** right? so if you can use lasers to oppress her and make her feel like she has to come at you, you can **** her. that's the way I see it anyway

edit: btw I think a lot of matchups are like this (sheik, marth, puff... characters who have solid defense but also can't just rush in...) That's why lasers are so good, even though straight up camping is not so good... haha

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

peach is really easy to beat. laser a lot and run away on platforms. bair the **** out of her and combo her whenever u get the chance.

 

[Tomacawk]

I think peach is one of the hardest matchups for fox because it requires you to play so patiently and pick your battles really well
one impatient shffl nair leads into a fair into destruction

 

[Brookman]

I think we should stop talking about what sort of problems "fox" is having and, instead, own up to the problem as a player.

"I have a problem vs. peach"
"I have to play carefully"

etc. etc.