Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Fortress | Sveet]

spotdodging almost always sucks
rolling is good when you have other options too, but sort of sucks when you're backed into a corner in your shield.

 

[JPOBS]

a few months back i used to never roll under any circumstances

then i realized, you can almost get away with rolling 100% of the time as long as you dont do it often.

as long as its just another mixup and not your go-to thing, you'll rarely get punished for it.
spot dodging is terrible.

 

[Tomacawk]

then i realized, you can almost get away with rolling 100% of the time as long as you dont do it often.

you use 100% and then qualify the statement in a way which sets up a situation where it fails?
O.o

I disagree with everybody about spot dodge sucking. Especially buffered ones. buffered spotdodge to shine is one of fox's greatest pseudo-combos
spotdodge can also be used in many situations, like dodging a side b from a fox/falco and grabbing them in their land lag, or dodging a ganon's fair and usmashing him

 

[MarsFool!]

spot dodge a grab > shine

never get grabbed by marth again unless youre bad at spacing shines

ty tomacawk

 

[unknown522]

god**** falco mains, sidestep so much.

I hate how a lot of them get away with it in dittos, or vs fox.

 

[MarsFool!]

he punishes approaches too well

everything you can try against him after spot dodges your attack ends with you getting hit. I just run away and hope I shield lasers and Im not on a platform so I dont get daired

 

[unknown522]

Gotta DD grab/u-smash to punish it. But when you're coming from the air, it's annoying sometimes.

 

[EC_Joey]

spot dodge a grab > shine

never get grabbed by marth again unless youre bad at spacing shines

ty tomacawk

I hope you're kidding.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Spot dodging from a tech chase or a stand is usually pretty bad. But its a good way to punish moves that have alot of cool down. Marths fsmash.

Feeling the need to spot dodge is a good habit to break.(if you can even call that a habit lol)

 

[ChivalRuse]

god**** falco mains, sidestep so much.

I hate how a lot of them get away with it in dittos, or vs fox.

Have you seen Alex19's matches vs Zhu from Grev 8? He punishes those spotdodges really well.

 

[MarsFool!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ntNt6e2nK0

mango spot dodges a lot lulz
and doesnt get punished for it

@variola: Im very serious, theres no way marth can grab you after you spotdodge unless youre too far away to shine. But if youre too far away to shine him why would anyone spot dodge


Ill find a video of a fox doing the same

 

[JPOBS]

you use 100% and then qualify the statement in a way which sets up a situation where it fails?
O.o

I disagree with everybody about spot dodge sucking. Especially buffered ones. buffered spotdodge to shine is one of fox's greatest pseudo-combos
spotdodge can also be used in many situations, like dodging a side b from a fox/falco and grabbing them in their land lag, or dodging a ganon's fair and usmashing him

yea i know.
Doesnt really make sense in words i guess what i mean is this:
good players often look for bad rolling habits in opponents (see:mango vs armada, and anyone vs zhu's roll). But its possible to condition your opponent to NOT expect a roll from you. If they try to cover an expected from from you and fail a few times, they are eventually going to think "ok this guy doesnt roll like a nub so i dont have to cover that option i can punish him for other things"
At that point you can pretty much roll without being punished as long as you dont do it so much that they start thinking "ok, so he is a nub roller"
i hope that made a little more sense? it basically boils down to conditioning them to not expect a roll, and then rolling anyway lol

I personally think spotdodging is is really bad for lots of reasons but w/e

edit: ^^ in that mango vs m2k match, mango rolled like 3 times in a span of 5 seconds at 1:48-1:52 and M2k grabbed him twice for it.

 

[ArcNatural]

@variola: Im very serious, theres no way marth can grab you after you spotdodge unless youre too far away to shine. But if youre too far away to shine him why would anyone spot dodge

I think you need to reword this because I don't really understand it. Fox has vulnerable frames during a spotdodge where he can be grabbed and can't do nothing to avoid it.

Your last sentence also confuses me. I think your talking about Fox vs Marth with Marth grabbing Fox. Therefore, why would Fox spotdodge if Marth is too far away to shine is what I think your saying.

Marth's can space grab so that they can't be shined out of it. Which doesn't leave many options for avoiding it. Sure you can do other options like rolling (pretty sure it's fast enough) or jumping (not so sure it's fast enough to avoid the grab). But on the whole that's a situation where Fox could still spotdodge, he just can't shine as a counter after it.

 

[unknown522]

Have you seen Alex19's matches vs Zhu from Grev 8? He punishes those spotdodges really well.

yes, indeed.

 

[MarsFool!]

Its what happens to your English as C++ coder. Sorry lol

Anyway yes what Im saying is there would be 0 reason to spotdodge because Marth would be so far away that you cant shine him anyway. Your best bet would literally be to spotdodge then jump if you had already decided to dodge. If you get grabbed by the late part of marths grab then you spotdodged too early.

I never endorsed rolling lol, just spotdodging.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so you're saying to should play a predictive game and spotdodge because you think the marth will grab you even though marth has full stage control and will likely just wait for whatever you do and punish it.

 

[Kanelol]

If you're fighting an impatient marth, sure

 

[JPOBS]

double roll > everything

 

[MarsFool!]

so you're saying to should play a predictive game and spotdodge because you think the marth will grab you even though marth has full stage control and will likely just wait for whatever you do and punish it.

Do you realize marths grab hitbox lasts 2 frames and takes another 21 (30 total) to go back to normal and foxes dodge lasts 16 frames and recovers only 7 (22 total) frames later?

You have literally one frame of vulnerability before a dodge and 7 after. There is a huge window there to escape getting grabbed up close.


Im pretty sure Ive implied multiple times that this is all contengent of marth being close enough to shine.

 

[ArcNatural]

Do you realize marths grab hitbox lasts 2 frames and takes another 21 (30 total) to go back to normal and foxes dodge lasts 16 frames and recovers only 7 (22 total) frames later?

You have literally one frame of vulnerability before a dodge and 7 after. There is a huge window there to escape getting grabbed up close.


Im pretty sure Ive implied multiple times that this is all contengent of marth being close enough to shine.

Thanks for clearing stuff up.

My only issue with your reasoning is the main situation that this happens makes your choice much harder than this.

Techchasing on the whole is usually a combination of 2 actions not just one.

So say you tech in place and Marth is right there spaced and waiting. You don't have the time to decide whether he is going to grab immediately or bait the spotdodge/or whatever else he may have picked up from your pattern.

Same goes for most tech chasing . So you could say your already trapped by your frames before your option of spotdodging comes up. This makes it that jumping would not be viable if the Marth went to grab the tech in place.

Your only real options are shine(if close enough)/roll/spotdodge on immediate grabs

or anything else really if you believe they are trying to bait those options or they mess up the immediate grab timing.

Which is why it's really about prediction and reaction times. Not what you seem to be implying as a really safe method of escape.

 

[Blistering Speed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ntNt6e2nK0

mango spot dodges a lot lulz
and doesnt get punished for it

@variola: Im very serious, theres no way marth can grab you after you spotdodge unless youre too far away to shine. But if youre too far away to shine him why would anyone spot dodge


Ill find a video of a fox doing the same

Mango is never a good example.

 

[MarsFool!]

Thanks for clearing stuff up.

My only issue with your reasoning is the main situation that this happens makes your choice much harder than this.

Techchasing on the whole is usually a combination of 2 actions not just one.

So say you tech in place and Marth is right there spaced and waiting. You don't have the time to decide whether he is going to grab immediately or bait the spotdodge/or whatever else he may have picked up from your pattern.

Same goes for most tech chasing . So you could say your already trapped by your frames before your option of spotdodging comes up. This makes it that jumping would not be viable if the Marth went to grab the tech in place.

Your only real options are shine(if close enough)/roll/spotdodge on immediate grabs

or anything else really if you believe they are trying to bait those options or they mess up the immediate grab timing.

Which is why it's really about prediction and reaction times. Not what you seem to be implying as a really safe method of escape.

I dont say anything about teching to shield. Thats a terrible idea all around but Ill get to that later. Simply put Marth pretty much always wants to grab you. He can only grab you while youre inside his body or tehe length of the two hitboxes that make his grab. Its pretty easy to tell if a marth is going to grab if hes standing that close. If you tech you should immediately shine because that would be your only hope to not get grabbed.

also see: really old video showing improper spotdodge spacing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toQbA21Zqag&NR=1
I also never remember saying that its your best option to spotdodge a grab either. I said that if you do spotdodge a grab the marth has to be in reach of a shine or youre going to get punished.

@blistering speed: sure next time I wont use someone that wins tournaments.

last thing about reaction time. I play marvel and I react VERY quickly. look at 2:05 ish in this video. I do stuff way more intense than that now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQAiAgmZkkY&feature=related

 

[EC_Joey]

@variola: Im very serious, theres no way marth can grab you after you spotdodge unless youre too far away to shine. But if youre too far away to shine him why would anyone spot dodge


Ill find a video of a fox doing the same

You can space the JC grab just out of shine range, so he can grab you out of your shine. Pretty much the only time I spot dodge against a decent Marth is when I think he's going to fsmash. You want to rely on constant deceptive movement to avoid getting grabbed in a neutral situation, not spotdodging.

 

[ArcNatural]

I dont say anything about teching to shield. Thats a terrible idea all around but Ill get to that later. Simply put Marth pretty much always wants to grab you. He can only grab you while youre inside his body or tehe length of the two hitboxes that make his grab. Its pretty easy to tell if a marth is going to grab if hes standing that close. If you tech you should immediately shine because that would be your only hope to not get grabbed.

This still doesn't make sense. I never said shield in my post. Marth can easily outspace shine with his grab, even his dashing JC one can be spaced properly. Which in that case you can't shine forces you to try other options, all of which can be baited.

also see: really old video showing improper spotdodge spacing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toQbA21Zqag&NR=1
I also never remember saying that its your best option to spotdodge a grab either. I said that if you do spotdodge a grab the marth has to be in reach of a shine or youre going to get punished.

This isn't true either. If you do spotdodge a grab from Marth you can just JC grab him or attack him, his grab lag is slower than your spotdodge in this case.

 

[Lovage]

spot dodging and rolling are standard tools just like any other. and just like any other tool, they're only bad if you get into bad habits with them

they just have a bad stigma attached to them cuz they're the first bad habits a lot of people pick up so it looks NOOBY

 

[JPOBS]

edit: nvm.

 

[MarsFool!]

You guys need to learn about c stick rolling. Its pretty fast.

@arc: I have no idea what youre even saying anymore. Also yeah marth is going to move away pretty quickly if he misses a grab and hes spaced correctly. You might get lucky and go against someone that doesnt know to grab after a spotdodge will be over but that all I can think of.

 

[EC_Joey]

Reading comprehension is perty gud.

 

[MarsFool!]

meh arguing about it means nothing, im sitting here with an AR so I believe it.

anyway who here is going to apex? mm me there against my fox falco marth or d mario!

 

[MaNg0]

cause i no when to spotdodge

and not in scrubby situations like everyone else

**** scrubs

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Silence, confused toaster.

lol you are a funny character

 

[4 Aces]

ruthless

Where'd this come from?

 

[CalamityofCox]

there is no point in spot dodging when u cant shine and get punished instantly.

 

[Tomacawk]

there is no point in spot dodging when u cant shine and get punished instantly.

shine requires them to be right on top of you. spotdodge requires them to be on their way to right on top of you. choosing which one to do requires different analysis of the situation

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shine is better than spot dodge in every way

 

[ArcNatural]

shine is better than spot dodge in every way

Marth spaces grab to avoid shine.

Which option is better, spotdodge or shine?

I would think spot dodge is better in this situation. If you said almost in every way then I would of agreed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i meant as far as startup and ending frames.

shine hits/invincible on frame1 (spotdodge frame 2)
can be moving after a shine on frame 7 (spotdodge frame 22+)

 

[GOD!]

Every move in the game is situational... and every situation can be handled correctly in like 500 different ways as long as you don't get read.. what is this argument about?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

it's about rolling and spotdodging...
here, i'll try to help.

How do you use the reflector with Fox McCloud?

 

[iamthemicrowave]

i need help with this too. kels told me to stop shining so much after my aerials on shields and just keep nair/bairing them. he says its way better.

now im so confused about what to do