Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[FoxLisk]

if you want to survive a shinespike you should pick jiggs or walltech.

 

[Kanelol]

Reading DI to predict a tech. ****. I need to learn this ****. SOMEONE TEACH ME

 

[CalamityofCox]

sion is more technical than blunted_object and dieslow though.

is it a good idea to ever approach with a uair with upthrowing first cuz it seem to get punished pretty easily in most situations as long as it gets shielded?

 

[ChivalRuse]

It also makes tech chasing easier. Why would you do something on reaction when it's guaranteed through pure reads, anyway?

Just so you guys know, this last part was meant to be a joke.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

uhh... yeah... i uh... i knew that was a joke... yeah... totally... -_-

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

SDI up and hope you have a jump.

also, if marth sdi's your shine away there is no possible followup besides shine->jump->sideb (which is actually a true combo on everyone who doesn't fall down from shine... THANKS SW!)

 

[LumpyCPU...]

SDI up and hope you have a jump.

also, if marth sdi's your shine away there is no possible followup besides shine->jump->sideb (which is actually a true combo on everyone who doesn't fall down from shine... THANKS SW!)

ugh... now i'm confused. that's what i was thinking at first.

so you can't even grab (boost grab?) after a shine on a marth that di's the shine away?

 

[unknown522]

Ill post the vids later tonight.
Also, sion is on the level of blunted object and dieslow apparently.

Yeah, I keep hearing about that too. He seems to have a lot of trouble with sheik and falcon though. Both BO10 and Diakonos told me that sion is like shiz apparently. I hope he decides to come to apex.

EDIT: i didnt do everything the way i should have, so ill just tell you that vs good falcos, you need to maneuver around the platforms and look for openings. falco controls the ground, you dont want to be down there when control of the match is up for grabs. try to stay away from him and throw out lasers when you can. try to get shines in at low percents to knock him down and go from there. at higher percents shine and aerials work for knocking him down.
if he tries to go for shl grab, try to shine out of shield preemptively, its usually safe. they can catch on and double jump dair over you or something, although ive never actually seen a falco do this, they usually just start to wait until theyre more comfortable with going for the grab or do something else. another good thing to do if dash away from him when hes close with an shl in your direction and shield real quick so youre able to bair just in case he tries to go in with a grab, its pretty safe.
tech chase on platforms with dair if they tech. if they tech in the center just do a dair grab. if they tech on the side, do a dair, and be ready to immediately run off, do another dair and then grab, or dair shine, depending on whether or not they fell onto the stage or off the stage. on stages like dream land and battlefield, when you up throw they usually dont tech, so do uair. if they DI towards the ledge, run off shine or nair shine. if they DI off the platform towards the stage run off with a nair, then grab, or a uair if theyre close enough and then grab.
for anything else just look for what worked and what didnt in the matches. and watch eggz vs blunted too, eggz won their second set so you might pick up a couple things from him as well. i didnt watch it yet tho so idk. ill post the vids tomorrow

****, that's some sexual advice you got there. I appreciate it. I'm going to a smashfest for my birthday (which was yesterday), so I'm going to try out a lot of this vs weon-x (a falco player than I sometimes struggle with).

Also, I heard that eggz won, because he CP'd rainbow cruise twice in the set. I'll be sure to watch both of you guys.


edit: oh yeah, Eric told me that you taught him that falco can u-throw -> double laser on fox?

 

[Silent Wolf]

happy birthday =D

haha yeah RC is ****. if eric would have banned it he would have CPd mute city or FD instead.

 

[unknown522]

oh god, that's really gay.

Yeah, he banned FD, but if he get's CG'd there for banning RC then it's done anyway.

Also, thanks for the birthday greeting!

 

[Eggz]

Knowing what stages work best for you is skill in itself lol

 

[FoxLisk]

so i have a question. on my friend's samus, falling uair->usmash combos from 0% to around 15% or so. I know this can be easily CC'd out of if you react in time, but can it be DI'd away if you react slightly late? can it be jumped out of if samus just knows to do so?

 

[Silent Wolf]

so i have a question. on my friend's samus, falling uair->usmash combos from 0% to around 15% or so. I know this can be easily CC'd out of if you react in time, but can it be DI'd away if you react slightly late? can it be jumped out of if samus just knows to do so?

they might be able to DI to the point where you would have to run and do a jump cancel up smash, but at that percent it combos for sure. unless they cc like you said. although if you do manage to get an uair like that off, i would reccomend chaining as many nairs as you can, and if you chain them until samus is off the ledge do a shine to end it. the uair is a risk though.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

an upsmash on samus at really low percents doesn't seem worth it since i don't think you can follow it up.

 

[Silent Wolf]

unknown - here are the vids. kind of slow in the start but they get better lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276960

 

[Lovage]

the three most important things i think about when playing a good falco

-use your shield correctly
against most falcos, my general advice is to use your shield as little as possible, but try to accomplish the most you can in the small time that you use it. if you can powershield lasers on the run that's good, but the real goal is just to block the laser as fast as you can and keep moving.

if you can do this correctly you can take away like almost all of the control falco's lasers give him, and then your superior speed starts giving you the advantage.

-avoid obvious grab setups
a lot of medium-high level falcos setup their grabs in like the same 2 or 3 ways all the time and just mix it up. it's not like falco's grabs are amazing combo tools like falcon or sheik, but when falco uses his lasers correctly it makes fox really scared to battle him on the ground so he is forced to shield a lot.

by having experience with the matchup you can identify the obvious grab setups that falcos use a lot on your shield. laser to grab being the most common one, as well as jab to grab and shinegrab. if you can recognize early when the falco is gonna go for grab setups you can shine oos to get a knockdown or just fulljump over his grab, giving you a really good position over his whiffed grab.

-use platforms like a pimp
everyone knows platforms are super **** against falco. if you can correctly use platforms and your shield, you can almost eliminate lasers from the match against a lot of falcos. platforms also help you punish ledgehop doublelaser a lot.

here's mangos advice on edgeguarding falco: protect the stage, let him have the ledge. how this works is you stay closer to the center of the stage, covering all of his phantasm options, and force him to firebird onto the ledge.

once he's on the ledge you should be in a really good position if you can deal with his gay **** from the ledge. even if you can't punish his options directly from the ledge (ledgehop double laser like 90% of the time,) just focus on keeping yourself in a good position to cover his roll into the stage and get a grab/nair.

vids of me against falco:
vs. axe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA3f8FWlZ2M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRswXgX8Aw

vs. zhu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjvfRjbMVco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqqeQZVIHDU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-mu9iVgP_E

 

[Nø Ca$h]

can somebody give me advice on using fox supportively in teams?

 

[Silent Wolf]

here's mangos advice on edgeguarding falco: protect the stage, let him have the ledge. how this works is you stay closer to the center of the stage, covering all of his phantasm options, and force him to firebird onto the ledge.

once he's on the ledge you should be in a really good position if you can deal with his gay **** from the ledge. even if you can't punish his options directly from the ledge (ledgehop double laser like 90% of the time,) just focus on keeping yourself in a good position to cover his roll into the stage and get a grab/nair.

i think its better to just get the ledge and be ready for the fantasm. as in, guess when hes going to do it and do a nair from the ledge. either that or stay on the ledge until right about when hes going to do it and ledgedash, then wait and do an ftilt. cuz if you do nair, sometimes he waits and hits you with the fantasm.

another thing to add is that if hes lasering you, just laser him and youll get more damage if youre good at it.

EDIT: oscar i want to play you with my falco, ive gotten really good against fox =D

 

[Blunted_object10]

get em Silent Wolf!

 

[Nø Ca$h]

@ edge gaurding falco
if he goes for the ledge just use downward tilted ftilt

 

[Lovage]

@ edge gaurding falco
if he goes for the ledge just use downward tilted ftilt

not worth it imo, many firebird angles are not susceptible to low ftilt and whiffing a ftilt means giving up your whole position advantage you gained by letting him have the ledge.

if you can master it by recognizing all the firebird distances/angles he can use and which are beatable by ftilt it can be a really strong tool, but atm i think it's too hard to judge.

@sw this style of edge guarding can be effective too, the difference being that it has a higher reward and a higher risk if you **** up, where my (mangos) style has a smaller reward (it often doesnt kill but leads to on-stage tech chasing) but even if you **** up you still have decent stage position

 

[CanISmash]

anyone got tech chasing tips i hate them in spacies dittos. like falco misses a tech and stands there i approach i might get get up attacked, i shield they could just wait, i jump they roll back, most annoying of all is if i try to grab and get sidestepped shined.

 

[Silent Wolf]

tech chase with grabs. position yourself in front of where theyre acting from, be ready to shield, grab, or dash jc grab them. just get used to it. if they roll close to the ledge do a shine.

 

[FoxLisk]

they might be able to DI to the point where you would have to run and do a jump cancel up smash, but at that percent it combos for sure. unless they cc like you said. although if you do manage to get an uair like that off, i would reccomend chaining as many nairs as you can, and if you chain them until samus is off the ledge do a shine to end it. the uair is a risk though.

oh huh thanks. the thing is i found this out by something like uthrow->uair techchase on the top platform of YS, so chaining nairs wouldn't have worked (I dont think i can FH nair in time to get to him before nair comes out). ill definitely do this if I land it on a flat area though.

 

[Winston]

tech chase on platforms with dair if they tech. if they tech in the center just do a dair grab. if they tech on the side, do a dair, and be ready to immediately run off, do another dair and then grab, or dair shine, depending on whether or not they fell onto the stage or off the stage.

Can you explain this bit a little more? So doing dair where they land covers all of the options on the platform? By "be ready to immediately run off, do another dair" do you mean like you push them off the platform by running or what?

 

[Silent Wolf]

Can you explain this bit a little more? So doing dair where they land covers all of the options on the platform? By "be ready to immediately run off, do another dair" do you mean like you push them off the platform by running or what?

assume they are going to tech and time the jump and dair so it comes out right before they lose their invincibility frames. try to react and go towards where they teched, you dont have to move much as long as you do it from under the center of the platform. if they tech in place, you can grab after it, or turn around grab, whichever has to be done depending on what side you end up on, they may DI it a bit. almost every time youll get the grab. if they tech roll to the side of the platform you can hit them with the last part of the dair because itll take a lot of your dair time to reach them. it almost always knocks them off, unless they DI towards the paltform, so as soon as you do that dair, watch which way they go and be ready to run off and catch them with another dair then grab, or utilt. or shine if they reach the ground before you do, grabs usually better though, unless your fighting a peach or something.

 

[KAOSTAR]

i think its better to just get the ledge and be ready for the fantasm. as in, guess when hes going to do it and do a nair from the ledge. either that or stay on the ledge until right about when hes going to do it and ledgedash, then wait and do an ftilt. cuz if you do nair, sometimes he waits and hits you with the fantasm.

another thing to add is that if hes lasering you, just laser him and youll get more damage if youre good at it.

EDIT: oscar i want to play you with my falco, ive gotten really good against fox =D

Lol, I probably only agree because its what the foxes im around do lol. I feel weird trying to edgeguard from the stage.

When you are ledgestalling can falco side B and grab the ledge B4 you regrab? and dont the flames often beat out his side B because the hitbox is behind him?

 

[Lovage]

fox's flames dont start until like 1/3rd or 1/2 thru the charging animation

 

[Nø Ca$h]

not worth it imo, many firebird angles are not susceptible to low ftilt and whiffing a ftilt means giving up your whole position advantage you gained by letting him have the ledge.

if you can master it by recognizing all the firebird distances/angles he can use and which are beatable by ftilt it can be a really strong tool, but atm i think it's too hard to judge.

cactuar/tag **** at it.they have their back turned to the edge to keep stage control then walk to edge>ftilt

 

[KAOSTAR]

fox's flames dont start until like 1/3rd or 1/2 thru the charging animation

Reading it again it looks confusing.

I guess I just meant in general, if you were to do a "bad" ledgestall. I cant remember if falco would spike and/or trade hits with you or just get hit by the flames preventing him from grabbing at all.

 

[KirbyKaze]

be nice and explain?

I wasn't going to. I was going to just make a troll post and be like, "LOL just do it noob", but I changed my mind.

Many Sheiks screw up the regrab tech chase but they space the grab so that they can grab you through your Shine. Not literally, but what I mean is the Shine hitbox misses as the grab is coming out because they're late, and the hand nicks you before you can jump out (or as you are jumping out).

If you tech behind them, they can't get this kind of spacing without devoting time to a WD so if they try to grab even when they screwed up, it won't work and they get Shined, unless they blatantly call you for Shining and know they'll be late beforehand and DD grab or something. You also have the added bonus of making them turn around, which means they have to devote time to turning around. It's a small thing, but it's time they wouldn't have to devote if you simply teched in place with no DI.

Slight DIs so you give the illusion of landing behind her is also effective against bad tech chasers. I forget which one that one is. I'd imagine it's up + towards her but I don't know. Experiment and figure it out.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i don't think these "bad tech chasers" are the issue, but thanks for the insight.

kirbykaze was the most recent post in like half of my subscribed threads. lol

 

[FoxLisk]

I wasn't going to. I was going to just make a troll post and be like, "LOL just do it noob", but I changed my mind.

Many Sheiks screw up the regrab tech chase but they space the grab so that they can grab you through your Shine. Not literally, but what I mean is the Shine hitbox misses as the grab is coming out because they're late, and the hand nicks you before you can jump out (or as you are jumping out).

If you tech behind them, they can't get this kind of spacing without devoting time to a WD so if they try to grab even when they screwed up, it won't work and they get Shined, unless they blatantly call you for Shining and know they'll be late beforehand and DD grab or something. You also have the added bonus of making them turn around, which means they have to devote time to turning around. It's a small thing, but it's time they wouldn't have to devote if you simply teched in place with no DI.

Slight DIs so you give the illusion of landing behind her is also effective against bad tech chasers. I forget which one that one is. I'd imagine it's up + towards her but I don't know. Experiment and figure it out.

okay thanks, that's sort of what i figured. didnt know about the spacing for grabbing through shine though.

 

[PK Webb]

If I miss space my nair what's a good way to get away and respace urself besides shine because when I shine I justget grabbed....also any1 have any ideas on gud meathods to practicing options outta shine such as nair and bair???

 

[FoxLisk]

it depends on how you misspaced the nair, and who you're playing against. sometimes you do it so badly you're just hopeless. sometimes you can shine after it, sometimes you can dash away, sometimes you can full hop and get on a platform, sometimes you can CC, sometimes you can uptilt. it's way too situational.

also a good way to practicing shining and then sh nairing is to shine and then sh nair over and over again.

 

[PK Webb]

Like when I shine and try to nair I get stuck in the shine sometimes......is puttin handicap on damage down to .5 and my handicap on 1 still the best practice???

 

[LumpyCPU...]

if someone is waiting for you to shine so they can grab, just replace the shine with a grab sometimes. mix ups mix ups mix ups.

what a lot of people (including myself) don't seem to get about this game is that the "optimum" option can only get better as people start to question if you're doing it or not.

what i mean is if you know the safest thing to do after a shffl nair is to shine, it becomes less safe when they are waiting for that shine. at this point not doing the safest thing would be safer because you've now caught on they will wait for a shine, giving you a window of opportunity to grab instead of shine (or maybe dash away without the shine).

just speculating here, but i feel pretty good about it. lol

 

[PK Webb]

Nice advice I will think about it

 

[unknown522]

Knowing what stages work best for you is skill in itself lol

hahaha, yeah

unknown - here are the vids. kind of slow in the start but they get better lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=276960

thanks! I saw them. Good work

can somebody give me advice on using fox supportively in teams?

fox doesn't need a partner in teams.

But yeah, wait behind your teammate to punish opponents rolls, or approach from platforms if you want to support. Once your teammate racks a lot of damage, you should be around to finish with u-smash. Also, try to support combos, especially if your teammate lands a grab. If jiggs/peach is your partner, then you should be fishing for grabs so that they can rest/d-smash.

i think its better to just get the ledge and be ready for the fantasm. as in, guess when hes going to do it and do a nair from the ledge. either that or stay on the ledge until right about when hes going to do it and ledgedash, then wait and do an ftilt. cuz if you do nair, sometimes he waits and hits you with the fantasm.

another thing to add is that if hes lasering you, just laser him and youll get more damage if youre good at it.

EDIT: oscar i want to play you with my falco, ive gotten really good against fox =D

Yeah, taking the ledge is definitely better. If falco gets the ledge, then if he knows how to WD from the ledge, then he's pretty much homefree. He has like potentially 14 frames of invincibility after the WD from the ledge, so there's a lot of room for error. If they laser from the ledge all the time, then that's a different story I guess.

Also, when falco is at lower percents, standing right on the edge of the stage and d-smashing them is amazing. Also if they try to sweetspot with the illusion, then you can hit them far enough so that they can't tech.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

never forget how good buffering a roll can be when you miss-space