Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[JPOBS]

You're amazing David.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So can you shield pressure characters with poor grab ranges unpunishably with late nair -> shine -> retreating dair?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I would think so. Falcos do it as part of their staple pressure strings so why not.

 

[Tomacawk]

I would think so. Falcos do it as part of their staple pressure strings so why not.

falco is also airborn longer due to fall speed(and weight?) so he can drift further away the fox can. so basically if you're playing ness or pikachu or some stupid character you can fade back falco style, otherwise you're getting shield grabbed

also since we're on the topic of shield pressure, i have what i believe to be an innovative new way to shield pressure:shine, short hop no fastfall fair that lands behind them, followed by a shine after the l cancel lag (or a bair)
the 2nd hit of the fair will come out JUST before you land, so it's a really low landing fair; however it will still lose to things like shine oos, wd oos, sheik/peach nair oos, samus upb oos, basically any really fast oos maneuver that hits behind someone
it's yet another thing you can add to your scrapbook of tricks that is good but not great and not always the best option but can easily throw opponents into a state of confusion
and a lot of times they'll whiff a grab because they assume it's a free grab when they see you fair on their shield

 

[AnDaLe]

I've never been put in a shine, Fair, shine shield pressure situation, seems interesting.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I've never been put in a shine, Fair, shine shield pressure situation, seems interesting.

its **** with falco cuz you can get 3 hits out in one short hop and no one expects the 3rd hit so they try to act during the hit lag.

 

[CalamityofCox]

i never heard about this either o.o
i should try it

 

[GOD!]

You can get grabbed after the shine and before the fair??

 

[PK Webb]

Must test this theory.......I'm puttin up critque vids tonite most likely.......I'm lookin to be knit picked apart=)

 

[Kanelol]

im leaving forever and ever

not really

but i wont be back anytime soon

ill miss you guys, even though i know no one gives a ****

 

[PK Webb]

Where r u going??????? A whole new world or sumthing

 

[Kanelol]

or narcotics ****ing anonymous

herp derp drugs are bad

i swear when i return ill be the best fox in ohio

 

[PK Webb]

or narcotics ****ing anonymous

herp derp drugs are bad

i swear when i return ill be the best fox in ohio

Lol wtf ok I thought u were going to the army or sumthing

 

[FoxLisk]

well good luck on your recovery! that's a rough situation to be in but I'm sure you'll pull through.

 

[MarsFool!]

Anyone know how many frames of hitlag there is if you CC a laser from Falco? Assuming there is a difference (which I'm not sure about).

7 frames(frame 0 with the laser 1 frame in front of your face) , you can move on frame 8

I'm pretty sure lazers are CC'able, but I don't know the frame difference

12 frames standing

 

[TheGeneral]

How do you guys practice nair->shining perfectly? I'd prefer if it were in training mode, so that I can see for myself whether I'm comboing or not, but if I have to set something up in vs mode, that's fine too.

 

[Tomacawk]

How do you guys practice nair->shining perfectly? I'd prefer if it were in training mode, so that I can see for myself whether I'm comboing or not, but if I have to set something up in vs mode, that's fine too.

go into training mode and spawn super stars or whatever makes them invincible
then nair shine to your heart's content

 

[voorhese]

go into training mode and spawn super stars or whatever makes them invincible
then nair shine to your heart's content

ewww no, just go to versus against a human (not being played) on 2.0 damage ratio and u having 1 handicap and them having 9 on like bowser or ganon or something

(this way u can use cstick if u wann mix it up and do some COOL ****)

 

[Tomacawk]

ewww no, just go to versus against a human (not being played) on 2.0 damage ratio and u having 1 handicap and them having 9 on like bowser or ganon or something

(this way u can use cstick if u wann mix it up and do some COOL ****)

that works too but they eventually get to a really high % and then you can't kill them, nor can you combo them. so you have to get the other controller and make them walk off, which is annoying

i prefer training mode because you can get a consistent rhythm due to the fact that hitstun is present on every single hit, which emulates shield stun

 

[voorhese]

that works too but they eventually get to a really high % and then you can't kill them, nor can you combo them. so you have to get the other controller and make them walk off, which is annoying

i prefer training mode because you can get a consistent rhythm due to the fact that hitstun is present on every single hit, which emulates shield stun

yeah, i dont have that whole killing problem, but u know me i like to spam tech skill whenever i can, and i want my c-stick

both will work i just dont like training mode.... you could always trap them into the box on jungle japes =P

 

[KAOSTAR]

lvl 9 handicap 9 falco. damage ratio .5 your handicap 1.

both red team using name select cheat.they never attackand falco is smaller so more realistic in terms of timings

 

[GOD!]

You know that nair shining a character is different from nair shining a shield right? So you need to practice against starman chars and against regular chars to get both timings down..

 

[LumpyCPU...]

argh, i wish there was an action replay code to use c-stick during hrc, btt, event, and all other things 1player mode has to offer. i can't play without the c-stick. i feel like an amputee. also, going through debug mode just to use c-stick is annoying because you can't reset instantly and it doesn't time you and all that crap. idk.

action replay is too good though. i've started using it occasionally with an infinite shield code to practice Lcanceling against shields and light shields.

QUESTION: can you get grabbed between a shine and an early dair?

i've been wondering why nobody does like... late nair shine early dair to back of shield shine turn around grab.

edit: LOL i just realized how **** that would look in an actual match. too good. i know shine grab can be interupted, but yeah.

 

[unknown522]

nvm. Maybe another time.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

oops. those videos were accidentally not uploaded to youtube.

lol inconvenient.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You know that nair shining a character is different from nair shining a shield right? So you need to practice against starman chars and against regular chars to get both timings down..

I didn't actually, ill have to try that then.

I need to just buy AR and do infinite shield

 

[LumpyCPU...]

it's really similar if not the same as hitting an someone who has star invincibility.

but i do recommend AR for a lot of cool/convenient things. i don't think i'm putting mine to good use.

 

[unknown522]

oops. those videos were accidentally not uploaded to youtube.

lol inconvenient.

alright, I'll re-post if they get put on youtube.

sorry about that.

 

[Tomacawk]

You know that nair shining a character is different from nair shining a shield right? So you need to practice against starman chars and against regular chars to get both timings down..

I am aware of this. I used the term "emulate" to express that it's being recreated, and I was trying to imply that it was being recreated sub-optimally.

lumpy, shine turn jcgrab is a poor choice of moves because it's already slow enough and not guaranteed, but adding a turn in your shine just makes it that much less likely to hit

and shine shffl dair is safe on shield as long as you are quick. I find myself getting shield grabbed a lot after the dair though; I think it leaves you at a frame disadvantage if you don't hit them with the last hit of the dair (I'm not sure if it's possible to even get that last hit of the dair out, whether or not you fastfall. Can someone confirm/deny this?)
I may just be missing my l cancel or shining too slowly, because afaik it's supposed to work.
I just stick to nairs, they're more intimidating

 

[KAOSTAR]

shine grab is not slow. beatable yes, but its not easy. with good mix ups i don't see people punishing it because they have to worry about other things.

 

[JPOBS]

I am aware of this. I used the term "emulate" to express that it's being recreated, and I was trying to imply that it was being recreated sub-optimally.

lumpy, shine turn jcgrab is a poor choice of moves because it's already slow enough and not guaranteed, but adding a turn in your shine just makes it that much less likely to hit

and shine shffl dair is safe on shield as long as you are quick. I find myself getting shield grabbed a lot after the dair though; I think it leaves you at a frame disadvantage if you don't hit them with the last hit of the dair (I'm not sure if it's possible to even get that last hit of the dair out, whether or not you fastfall. Can someone confirm/deny this?)
I may just be missing my l cancel or shining too slowly, because afaik it's supposed to work.
I just stick to nairs, they're more intimidating

Shine grab is beatable, but you make it sound as if someone can react to it easily and avoid it on pure reaction. The window to escape it is so small that they basically have to KNOW you're going to do it to avoid it.

unless you're playing someone bad who habitually spotdodges during pressure, in whoch case, you probably dont even need to shine grab anyway.
the beauty of shine grab is that its difficult to escape without expecting, whereas nair shien can be exceped on reaction every single time.

heres the reason you're getting grabbed after dairs on sheild btw

With Dair, the weakness is that while the active hitbox comes out in a timely manner (there's no disadvantage to doing early Dairs because of the consistency with the hitbox - multi-hit moves are good in this regard), you have the issue of less stun at the end. Dair only produces 3 frames of stun per hit and L-cancels for 9 frames, so no matter how you do it, there's going to be 7 frames open at the end of it (minimally).

 

[4 Aces]

I think it's 17 assuming Shine and Nair are both at max power.

During pressure he typically breaks that into smaller pieces. He can make it 9 before the Nair and 8 after, for instance, which makes responding to it difficult (need near frame perfect shield grabs to get those). Of course, this assumes Fox himself is being perfect, which isn't fair. But numbers like 17 can be misleading because it's not really 17, it's 17 (or so) split as Fox chooses. Even a split like 11 and 6 can be difficult to react to.

What's to stop a person from spamming the a button during pressure to try and shield grab Fox? Or is it like techs where if you miss it, you'll have to wait x amount of frames before being able to try it again?

 

[KAOSTAR]

you will most likely get hit every time. you would let up your shield. and then not tech. get *****!

 

[4 Aces]

you will most likely get hit every time. you would let up your shield. and then not tech. get *****!

Yeah, that makes sense. Guess that means I suck at shield pressure. X.X What do you mean "then not tech?" I'm talking about shield grabbing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What's to stop a person from spamming the a button during pressure to try and shield grab Fox? Or is it like techs where if you miss it, you'll have to wait x amount of frames before being able to try it again?

It doesn't work like techs. You could keep trying to get an input out.

The weakness is that you'd have to mash and produce a (near) frame perfect input, which is difficult.

 

[Winston]

yeah, it's hard to mash a button fast enough to make that better than just timing the attack. Even 10 times a second is pretty hard to do, and that's 6 frame intervals, which isn't reliable at all.

and if you're trying to nair, shine, usmash, or whatever that takes more than a button press, forget about it haha.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you could do 30-60 inputs of the same button in a way that was non-disruptive to your normal gameplay and required no preparation of any kind (no warm up or working up to it) via mashing in 1 second then mashing would be superior to timing on many of this game's things.

I don't think that's feasible, though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yeah, that makes sense. Guess that means I suck at shield pressure. X.X What do you mean "then not tech?" I'm talking about shield grabbing.

I wasn't sure which button you were mashing.

mashing shield will mess up your tech. also mashing buttons that fast could just mess you up, in that you will miss your tech just by error.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

first of all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_dURvBGB_g&playnext_from=TL&videos=KmF03WmLZ3s
this needs more views. i know he's not efficient, but gawd is that fun to watch, or what?

secondly
i've read that post by KK about dairing early on shields. but i'm suggesting you dair to get behind they're shield. i know shine grab was a poor choice for my example.

i know that shine dair can be punished on the front of the shield, but can you do it to the back of their shield?
like samus' upB and shine oos can prolly beat it, but not all characters can do something that fast oos that hits behind them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

QUESTION: can you get grabbed between a shine and an early dair?

i've been wondering why nobody does like... late nair shine early dair to back of shield shine turn around grab.

edit: LOL i just realized how **** that would look in an actual match. too good. i know shine grab can be interupted, but yeah.

secondly
i've read that post by KK about dairing early on shields. but i'm suggesting you dair to get behind they're shield. i know shine grab was a poor choice for my example.

i know that shine dair can be punished on the front of the shield, but can you do it to the back of their shield?
like samus' upB and shine oos can prolly beat it, but not all characters can do something that fast oos that hits behind them.

To answer your first question on whether you can be grabbed between the Shine and Dair, technically no. If you're fast enough, that is. This requires high levels of execution. The window between a Dair and a Shine is 5 frames assuming you are frame perfect in every sense of the word. That means the Dair is input on the same frame as your jump, so you produce the Dair ASAP and your Shine has been canceled on the earliest frame possible.

Assuming your opponent's shield grab is perfect, you are allowed, in this ordeal, one frame of error. Otherwise it becomes possible to shield grab it. However, since nobody is frame perfect at shield grabs, it's really a bit more. But then that gets into chance timing and a degree of randomness enters.

This also assumes everything is at full power. I don't know how the damage of the Shine decays and how it affects its stun or hitlag. Same applies to the Dair.

Tentatively, I will say that I don't think you can be shield grabbed if your execution is perfect or near perfect. But that's difficult to do and frame perfection is an unrealistic standard.

------------------------

Now for your other questions.

People do late aerial Shine early Dair. I think Mango has actually explicitly posted about it on this board, in ages past. I think he called it "The Lucky". More people probably should do it, though.

In terms of cross-ups, the Dair is an excellent move to cross a shield with and it does have fewer weaknesses if you do it that way. Usually the issue with cross-ups is aerial OoS because the intention is to early aerial after the Shine, and then cross up, which is then punishable. But the Dair bypasses this by being a multi-hit move, with consistent active hitboxes. Being behind a shielding opponent is generally an advantageous position.

Obviously, this kind of strategy is less good against characters like Bowser, Samus, Fox, Falco, and Sheik, who have fast Up+B OoS, Shines, or fast Nair OoS. But it does have good use against slower characters with poor OoS options, notably characters like Falcon.