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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

LumpyCPU...

Smash Hero
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Jun 15, 2008
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afk
Slippi.gg
half#198
good for marth too, i'd assume.
i'm assuming i can beat his dair oos.
i'm usually too scared to try it against humans because i used to suck at Lcanceling on shields.

i understand that my questions usually aren't black and white, so thanks for covering the gray area.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
fighting falco from the bottom is actually really really useful.

he cant laser you, and its really easy to bait Dairs cuz thats what he wants more than anything. DD grab > dair
and once you get that grab, its done.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
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Spiral Mountain
JPOBS is operating under the impression that Falco wants to be above Fox because Falco's Dair is ludicrously good. So presumably, he wants to hit Fox (who is below him) with this move. In order to accomplish this, he has to Dair at the Fox, into the ground.

So if you DD out of the way, you then get to grab him.
 

MarsFool!

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
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Space Animals, Florida
After the first grab or upsmash hes going to quit dropping through with dairs at which point youre still gonna fight him from the bottom? I dont think so...

edit: before this turrns into another series of miscontrued reading errors Ill leave it at this.


Fox on platform > falco on lower platform/ lower section of the stage not including FoD blah blah lah
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
1) wd out of your shines towards jiggs. she will probably miss the tech and has a relatively small techroll even if she gets it, so most of the time you should be able to land a grab/dair/usmash/something

2) you clearly know to stay in the middle of the stage. keep it up.

3) i mean you seem to actually understand the matchup fairly well. i think you should DD bait more and laser less, and you should probably take it easy on hoping for lucky usmashes, but otherwise your game is pretty reasonable.

4) around 2:00 into that video you got greedy or impatient or something and did something very unsafe. you tried to corner jiggs on the ledge. it sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's just not worth it. when you have a spatial advantage like that, you should try to land one or two bairs at most, but mostly just use it as a way to force her to take a hit or two to gain her space back. stay away from the ledge. you then try to edgeguard which tends to end in disaster. you turned out okay but it's not a good habit. your edgeguarding such as it was earlier in the match of trying to shoot a few lasers or land a bair was much better.

5) your uthrow->uair is slow sometimes. like you got an uthrow on him around 90% that he didnt DI. it should still combo at that percent if you're really accurate, so try to be as fast as possible - that's an easy kill you missed.

6) DI UP THROWS
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
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the lab
1) wd out of your shines towards jiggs. she will probably miss the tech and has a relatively small techroll even if she gets it, so most of the time you should be able to land a grab/dair/usmash/something

2) you clearly know to stay in the middle of the stage. keep it up.

3) i mean you seem to actually understand the matchup fairly well. i think you should DD bait more and laser less, and you should probably take it easy on hoping for lucky usmashes, but otherwise your game is pretty reasonable.

4) around 2:00 into that video you got greedy or impatient or something and did something very unsafe. you tried to corner jiggs on the ledge. it sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's just not worth it. when you have a spatial advantage like that, you should try to land one or two bairs at most, but mostly just use it as a way to force her to take a hit or two to gain her space back. stay away from the ledge. you then try to edgeguard which tends to end in disaster. you turned out okay but it's not a good habit. your edgeguarding such as it was earlier in the match of trying to shoot a few lasers or land a bair was much better.

5) your uthrow->uair is slow sometimes. like you got an uthrow on him around 90% that he didnt DI. it should still combo at that percent if you're really accurate, so try to be as fast as possible - that's an easy kill you missed.

6) DI UP THROWS
Thanks a lot ummm I just flat out didn't see that grab coming in the end lol.....I'm goin to upload a sheik falcon marth and falco match to get sum info on that when youtube isn't actin gay.....I would like it if u helped me out there if u could =D
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
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pikachu
Dear friends,

My sister is trying to get this job as a Twitter jockey (weird, weird name) at MTV. If you would be so kind as to assist her by voting I would greatly appreciate it. She's not some random bimbo face, she's pretty good at what she does (graduated Cornell University in 06). So trust that a vote for her is well placed.

Thanks to all who can help; here are instructions:



From my Facebook wall
"... Jessica Brookman http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://tj.mtv.com/open-nomination/&h=71e3dx1Var4Lwo7zCzigW362qlg go here. do the thingie they tell you to do and when it asks for your nomination put "@jessicabrookman" ..."

As for melee: I hear the fox metagame has become camp/bair. Is this true?
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
Thanks a lot ummm I just flat out didn't see that grab coming in the end lol.....I'm goin to upload a sheik falcon marth and falco match to get sum info on that when youtube isn't actin gay.....I would like it if u helped me out there if u could =D
i used to think that was a reasonable thing to say, too. then i started playing a puff main for hours on end. turns out that a) you can usually DI on reaction unless you're REALLY surprised and your mind is very busy, and b) you can learn when she's going to grab. obviously mango will surprise you with grabs, but most puffs will only take the standard setups for safety reasons.

also you're very welcome. i hope you got something from it.

As for melee: I hear the fox metagame has become camp/bair. Is this true?
wasnt it always?

When can you get out of Peach's uthrow chaingrab?
when she nairs you to put you out of your misery... if she doesnt, i dont know, with neutral DI it's probably upwards of 90%.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
After the first grab or upsmash hes going to quit dropping through with dairs at which point youre still gonna fight him from the bottom? I dont think so...

edit: before this turrns into another series of miscontrued reading errors Ill leave it at this.


Fox on platform > falco on lower platform/ lower section of the stage not including FoD blah blah lah
hmm...i have mixed feelings about this.

Falco has a GREAT anti-air game, probably one of the best. uptilt > fox's aerials. and CC->shine beats any aerial approach worth trying from fox. plus he could jump to the other platforms and laser you down if he feels inclinded, or he cud just stay on the ground floor below a low platform and laser camp like a champ, one of the hardest defenses to break in the game.

IMO, falco is weakest when you can get under him. His lateral movement isnt THAT good because of his slow run speed, and his jumps are kinda awkward for him, which sometimes makes it difficult for him to move from being above you to a position not as threatening (so, to move from one platform to a next for him can be kinda tough depending on the positioning). He has loads of priority in his feet but its incredibly easy to bait attacks from him. Plus with fox's awesome vertica and horizontal movement, its easy to jump up to the platorms and pressure him once you get a knockdown with nair/bair or something.

i dunno, as both a falco and fox player, i feel falco is at his worst when fox controls space below him. being above falco isnt that good. just my opinion though.

When can you get out of Peach's uthrow chaingrab?
Unless im mistaken the textbook answer is "you can't, its impossible unless she messes up."

BUT, i play with a peach man who loves CG and i've been pretty successful at intentionally missing the DI around 70-75% and then jump or shine out. I dont know if this is a bonafide method but its worked well for me and the person i play never drops his cgs so i dunno.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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Dec 21, 2005
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On any chaingrab the best exit is to not DI. This makes you return to the ground later which lets you avoid the next grab. Most people will recognize this and hit you instead of attempting to grab. When this happens just DI to survive and ta-da you're out!
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Peach CG on Fox goes to like 96 with just regrab in place.

You can go to 104 or whatever but the last 10% or so requires some tech skill.

If you fail to escape via jump at like 96 because your timing sucks or they actually pivot CG for the extra damage, you can get screwed pretty hard by not DIing because her U-smash KOs you at like 112, which is only a few grab attacks away at that point.
 

LumpyCPU...

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
6,401
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afk
Slippi.gg
half#198
1) wd out of your shines towards jiggs. she will probably miss the tech and has a relatively small techroll even if she gets it, so most of the time you should be able to land a grab/dair/usmash/something

2) you clearly know to stay in the middle of the stage. keep it up.

3) i mean you seem to actually understand the matchup fairly well. i think you should DD bait more and laser less, and you should probably take it easy on hoping for lucky usmashes, but otherwise your game is pretty reasonable.

4) around 2:00 into that video you got greedy or impatient or something and did something very unsafe. you tried to corner jiggs on the ledge. it sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's just not worth it. when you have a spatial advantage like that, you should try to land one or two bairs at most, but mostly just use it as a way to force her to take a hit or two to gain her space back. stay away from the ledge. you then try to edgeguard which tends to end in disaster. you turned out okay but it's not a good habit. your edgeguarding such as it was earlier in the match of trying to shoot a few lasers or land a bair was much better.

5) your uthrow->uair is slow sometimes. like you got an uthrow on him around 90% that he didnt DI. it should still combo at that percent if you're really accurate, so try to be as fast as possible - that's an easy kill you missed.

6) DI UP THROWS
thanks for the advice.
my fox plays that match up exactly like his. lol
i was watching it thinking, "if someone told me this was my fox, i'd believe them"

Unless im mistaken the textbook answer is "you can't, its impossible unless she messes up."

BUT, i play with a peach man who loves CG and i've been pretty successful at intentionally missing the DI around 70-75% and then jump or shine out. I dont know if this is a bonafide method but its worked well for me and the person i play never drops his cgs so i dunno.
THAT UPSMASH

i look for that when i'm peach. it's prolly better to get up smashed than it is to take 20 more percent and still be stuck in her control. idk.
 

TheGeneral

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Messages
347
Hey, is fox's jump animation different while running? (ie more frames than the standing version.)

I feel like wavedashing from a sprint requires different timing than walking or standing still.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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Mos Eisley
the craziest thing i've ever seen in match was when i was falco vs my friends fox, and i sh lasered, he shined it, and I shined after landing, and the laser reflected between us rapidly a few dozen times then my shine BROKE like a shield and i went into a dizzy animation.

it was pimp
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
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the lab
the craziest thing i've ever seen in match was when i was falco vs my friends fox, and i sh lasered, he shined it, and I shined after landing, and the laser reflected between us rapidly a few dozen times then my shine BROKE like a shield and i went into a dizzy animation.

it was pimp
Same thing happened to me in a team tourney match I shined a samus missile and then my teammate shined and it got stuck between us and my shine broke
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Webb, I'm watching you new matches on YouTube. Use more dash attack, son. It's super broken, especially on characters who fish for grabs like Marth and Falcon. Overshooting dash attacks all day ***** dash dance campers.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Webb, I'm watching you new matches on YouTube. Use more dash attack, son. It's super broken, especially on characters who fish for grabs like Marth and Falcon. Overshooting dash attacks all day ***** dash dance campers.
I dont like dash attacking people cause they can CC the weak/tip hit for a long time and the strong hit can still be CC until at least 50%. Only time i use dash attack is when they are already in the air.

Personally i think shine approach is way under rated on dash dance campers. Run into the middle of their dash dance and shine nair. Marth might be able to outspace you with a grab, but you're a lot faster so you'll have a better time aiming the shine. Falcon has very little options against that. You're biggest risk against him is him sh dairing, but if you time it right you should beat his dair in speed with your nair. Similar story with sh knee.
 

ChivalRuse

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Messages
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When people dash dance, they're usually baiting you to attack into a certain zone, whereupon they get you with a pivot grab or something that accomplishes as much. Unless they expect you to dash attack, they're not going to be able to CC in time, since they're already moving. Not saying dash attack can't be CC'ed, just that dash attack is good for punishing people for doing the same thing repeatedly. It's a great combo starter.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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When people dash dance, they're usually baiting you to attack into a certain zone, whereupon they get you with a pivot grab or something that accomplishes as much. Unless they expect you to dash attack, they're not going to be able to CC in time, since they're already moving. Not saying dash attack can't be CC'ed, just that dash attack is good for punishing people for doing the same thing repeatedly. It's a great combo starter.
all they have to do when they see you run at them is space a grab and hold down. Also a lot of high level players have the instinct and reaction time to dash away and perfect shield fast approaches like this (tec0 did this to me constantly)
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Aug 17, 2005
Messages
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwYNh4j9gak&feature=youtube_gdata

Ok this is a match up I'm trying to work on I have other matches of various match ups I feel I need to work on soexpect more vids when I can get them up
you were doing really well, then you fell apart.

You undershoot a lot of moves and SH n-air when you should do FH n-air. Your u-throw -> u-airs were really slow. Also you don't shield-grab when he was overshooting moves and/or when he was using drill. In the air, you shine him sometimes when it was a much better time to u-air/b-air/n-air. You also should try to drill -> grab on him.

more later maybe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q91y6J_ddgY#t=02m16s

Whoa, shines clink'd. o_O Never seen that happen before.

EDIT: They do it again in the beginning of their third match! SW's hands are too fast.

EDIT2: Okay, real question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQqVUzc0pb4#t=01m49s

Ka0star explains it, and I'm wondering if that's actually right or if it was really just the cars. P:
they only clink if you're on the ground. Moves don't clink if someone is in the air (except for non-laser projectiles and Illusion I think). If 2 people shine at the same time and 1 or both of them are in the air, then they will go through each other.

I dont like dash attacking people cause they can CC the weak/tip hit for a long time and the strong hit can still be CC until at least 50%. Only time i use dash attack is when they are already in the air.

Personally i think shine approach is way under rated on dash dance campers. Run into the middle of their dash dance and shine nair. Marth might be able to outspace you with a grab, but you're a lot faster so you'll have a better time aiming the shine. Falcon has very little options against that. You're biggest risk against him is him sh dairing, but if you time it right you should beat his dair in speed with your nair. Similar story with sh knee.
they can CC the strong hit of the dash attack forever.

It works until at least 80% for sure. Maybe 90%.

Also, DC shine approach is awesome.
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
unknown, when you say you can CC the strong dash attack til 80, do you mean a true CC or just an ASDI down from a noncrouching animation? Cause you can't actually CC from a dashdance (unless someone were to pivot CC which would be amazing), you can only get the ASDI down part of it. so when approaching a DD camper it's only the percent that ASDI down will work for that is relevant.
 
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