Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Kanelol]

What about Nair Shine JC grab

 

[cykofox]

What about Nair Shine JC grab

welll that should be in the bag of trix when mixing up shield pressure. but smart nair pressure is always better, ftilt is dope also after nairshine wd back.

 

[Kanelol]

welll that should be in the bag of trix when mixing up shield pressure. but smart nair pressure is always better, ftilt is dope also after nairshine wd back.

I never thought about Ftilting/Jabbing after the Shine. I usually Wavedash straight down into another Shine Sh nair, but Ftilt might be better. Is multishining like that any good at all for shiled pressure or am I just being silly?

 

[JPOBS]

what you're describing is waveshinging into a sheild and its terrible for sheild pressure

actual multishining is great if u can do it.

 

[TresChikon]

I never thought about Ftilting/Jabbing after the Shine. I usually Wavedash straight down into another Shine Sh nair, but Ftilt might be better. Is multishining like that any good at all for shiled pressure or am I just being silly?

Never do any kind of shield pressure because all shield pressure is beatable.

Multishining is amazing for shield pressure. BUTT, I've really only seen double and at most, triple shines to cover shine OoS options or spotdodges.

But do record if you can multishine. I WANT TO SEE.

 

[cykofox]

Never do any kind of shield pressure because all shield pressure is beatable.

thats the dumbest thing i've heard. technically all characters can get away from shield pressure, but its not realistic. shield pressure is essential to fox, falco's game you just have to be smart about it.

 

[Kanelol]

Ok, multishining was the wrong word and I'm a total baddie. Theoretically, if shield pressure is good, I should always go aerial -> shine repeat, instead of aerial -> waveshine -> aerial?

Or should I just learn to do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opiolAzMClI

 

[DtJ Jungle]

if you're tryig to waveshine through your opponent you can get grabbed iirc or they can escape it by jumping and aerialing oos, i think

 

[JPOBS]

Ok, multishining was the wrong word and I'm a total baddie. Theoretically, if shield pressure is good, I should always go aerial -> shine repeat, instead of aerial -> waveshine -> aerial?

Or should I just learn to do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opiolAzMClI

dont bother learning to do that. its incredibly difficult to do and there are s many more practical and essential things you need to learn first.

Yes, start with perfectly Aerial->shine->repeat because thats how fox should sheild pressure.

also keep in mind that while aerial->shine->waveshine->repeat is generally a horrible way to pressure someone and will get you killed, there is some benefit to it.

first, and less importantly, if you only do it very sparingly, you can often get away with shine their shield->waveshine->aerial. This is because when people get shined, they are fully expecting you to aerial out and try to pressure so they probably wont do something, so you can maybe get away with it once or twice but dont EVER try to pressure with it intentionally.

Secondly, this is one of my favorite things to do, is you can aerial->shine-> wavedash oos through them-> pivot grab or DD grab -> ****.
this is really good vs sheild campy sheiks and marths who are just looking to grab you. its also very good vs players who like to escape pressure ASAP by wavedashing back or rolling because you can counter them. its also great vs jiggs and ok vs peach.

however, never do this vs space animals or samus

 

[Silent Wolf]

you shouldn't do aerial, shine repeat. if you do happen to land on their shield with an aerial just do a shine or two, fade back dair or nair then see what they do and go from there. you don't want to put yourself in the position of being on their shield. its not always a bad thing if it happens, you can start combos that way if you catch them with something, its just not how you want to start your combos/get grabs/etc. there are safer ways, stick to those.

 

[JPOBS]

ya thats true too, sheild pressure should generally be as short/effective as possible extended pressure isnt that good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nair shine wd back laser is unbeatable (as falco; ignore laser for fox)

there are no options you will lose to.

 

[Milos]

yea cactuar told me one of the most useful things to learn to do consistently with fox is like

aerial -> waveshine away

if the aerial or the shine hits you just dash/wavedash towards them and murk their ****

 

[joeplicate]

welll that should be in the bag of trix when mixing up shield pressure. but smart nair pressure is always better, ftilt is dope also after nairshine wd back.

i think shine grabs are seriously underrated

like, vs characters like marth, what's the point of nair/drill shining their shield forever if you just want to get a grab anyways? is all the effort worth 12 extra % or whatever from the nair? or falco, who you can **** out of a grab instead of a not-guaranteed knockdown game which MIGHT lead to a grab/upsmash

i think if someone was good enough to spot their opponent shielding, and could do nair->shine->grab every time it would be stupid good

 

[TresChikon]

thats the dumbest thing i've heard. technically all characters can get away from shield pressure, but its not realistic. shield pressure is essential to fox, falco's game you just have to be smart about it.

ummm i was kidding?

that's why i actually put in real input after it

 

[JPOBS]

i think shine grabs are seriously underrated

like, vs characters like marth, what's the point of nair/drill shining their shield forever if you just want to get a grab anyways? is all the effort worth 12 extra % or whatever from the nair? or falco, who you can **** out of a grab instead of a not-guaranteed knockdown game which MIGHT lead to a grab/upsmash

i think if someone was good enough to spot their opponent shielding, and could do nair->shine->grab every time it would be stupid good

i think it would only be stupid good until the falco realized that was ALL the fox did, and just shine'd OOS every time and ***** him which wouldnt take very long.

i dont know wat a marth would do tho lol

 

[FoxLisk]

shield asdi? buffer roll? jump backwards and fair? hell upb oos should beat that.

 

[GOD!]

\
i dont know wat a marth would do tho lol

Buffer a roll?

 

[ChivalRuse]

i think shine grabs are seriously underrated

like, vs characters like marth, what's the point of nair/drill shining their shield forever if you just want to get a grab anyways? is all the effort worth 12 extra % or whatever from the nair? or falco, who you can **** out of a grab instead of a not-guaranteed knockdown game which MIGHT lead to a grab/upsmash

i think if someone was good enough to spot their opponent shielding, and could do nair->shine->grab every time it would be stupid good

I agree with this post. Shinegrab has so much potential.

 

[JPOBS]

shield asdi? buffer roll? jump backwards and fair? hell upb oos should beat that.

sheild asid wont escape the grab
buffer roll is meh
upb would have to be timed so perfectly its not even funny. its comes out on frame 6 and the grab from shine comes out frame 7 which means he would have about 1 frame advantage on you. Take into account the fact that the shine itself issues sheild stun on marth, and i dont even know if he can b-up OOS but i could be wrong, never been a ace with frame data.
fair is even slower at 8 frames but maybe di back might help. maybe.

 

[FoxLisk]

really? i thought shield asdi got you back far enough. my bad.

buffer roll is indeed meh. would he have time to buffer spot dodge and then do that cut elittle DD grab behind?

i thought there was more time for up b, my bad again.

and i know the fair doesnt have the frame advantage but depending on spacing marth could probably get far enough away to avoid the grab and then get a free fair. like, unless you're super duper close to his body i think.

 

[JPOBS]

maybe i dont know, probably so.

Point being, ya, shine grab would be really nice vs a sheilding marth as long as you knew he was def gonna sheild

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

Joe forever!

EDIT: If everyone played fox like Joe, I'd quit smash <3

So effective/efficient. Alot of foxes go for unnecessary or more risk vs more reward whereas joe just does what works and freaking ***** you (me), nuff said.

 

[ArcNatural]

sheild asid wont escape the grab
buffer roll is meh
upb would have to be timed so perfectly its not even funny. its comes out on frame 6 and the grab from shine comes out frame 7 which means he would have about 1 frame advantage on you. Take into account the fact that the shine itself issues sheild stun on marth, and i dont even know if he can b-up OOS but i could be wrong, never been a ace with frame data.
fair is even slower at 8 frames but maybe di back might help. maybe.

The shine also creates hit lag on Fox. It would be useful for someone with frame data knowledge to say what the +/- frame differential is for a Marth grab vs Fox shine+JC grab. Factoring in hit lag and shield stun.

But I do agree that shine JC grab is very underused, especially against characters with poor OoS options. Although getting shield grabbed is always a risk.

 

[KAOSTAR]

The window is small for them to react to shine grab, altho it doable-they can shine oos,

but you have to take into account human reaction as well. I vaguely remember human reaction time being like 15 to 30 frames, avg. I feel that its prob a bit faster for ppl who often play fast paced games. A guess would be like 7-8 frames, based on nothing more than I think I prob react to things in melee faster than 15 frames. But that could also be anticipation which makes a huge difference.

but the grab takes around 7 frames and you shave off a few of those from the shine.

This is SCOTUS frame data, for falco but foxs should be similar. This is the shinegrab

ShineGrabbing:
(shine>jc grab)

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC Grab
9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab "hits"

Shield Damage: 5/ shine + 6 Shield Decay, 11 total (irrelevant)
Notes: Used to end shield pressure into a grab

So especially if you dont do it everytime, you should get alot of them.

They can buffer the jump with the c stick and mash down B, but you might catch them during their jump if they are too slow.

 

[FoxLisk]

So that gives a fox like 3 frames of leeway, and a falco... zero? fox's shine OoS comes out on frame 4, right? and falco's on frame 7? I probably have those wrong -_-

and that means that marth, who is in the air after... I think 5 or 6 frames, probably can't just sh fair out of a shiengrab because he'll just get grabbed before he's far enough. so it looks like buffer roll/spotdodge or fox's shine OoS is the only reliable defense?

 

[ArcNatural]

So that gives a fox like 3 frames of leeway, and a falco... zero? fox's shine OoS comes out on frame 4, right? and falco's on frame 7? I probably have those wrong -_-

and that means that marth, who is in the air after... I think 5 or 6 frames, probably can't just sh fair out of a shiengrab because he'll just get grabbed before he's far enough. so it looks like buffer roll/spotdodge or fox's shine OoS is the only reliable defense?

Why would Marth be in the air? What I believe Kaostar shows is that Marth has a +3 in the frames. Which means he can grab after the shine before you if they expect it.

 

[JPOBS]

im pretty sure that the way Scoutu's data works is the green is the frames you're safe because they are in sheild stun, the red frames are "actionable" frames by them.

so it seems like the hitlag ends and 7 frames later fox's grab lands. 7 frames is also how long i would take from marth to sheild grab you, which means marth would literally have to time it perfect and at best the lower port grabber would win.
a frame late and the marth would lose

 

[Erkekjetter]

I think one of the great things about shine grab is that nobody really expects it. Shine grab to quick up-throw rarely gets DIed correctly, at least that's what I've noticed when playing.

 

[Silent Wolf]

I just tested it:

1 - Shine hits shield
2
3
4
5
6
7 - Fox can jump
8 - Fox can begin his grab
9 - Marth can start to grab you
10
11
12
13
14 - Fox's grab would grab here
15 - Marth's grab would grab here

I suppose it's a bit risky, but they're usually not expecting it. Fox's often follow up a shine on someones shield with an aerial so it's unlikely that the Marth would get the grab, especially if you switch up your pressure.

EDIT: Still wouldn't recommend this on Fox, Falco, Samus or Bowser.

 

[voorhese]

good ****, shine grab is ****

 

[joeplicate]

<3 adam
i do what i can



i forgot about shine oos when your grab is starting

but if you do late shield pressure i think it would be almost guaranteed, unless they knew to shine oos it. that's the only thing that seems like it would beat it consistently

and obviously it's not like "omg use this 100% of the time" but it seems like a super powerful option. especially if you can cross up their shield, turn around in shine, then grab them from behind

gj with testing it too haha



also does anybody know how guaranteed fox's fade back shield pressure is?
like, falcos do late dair -> shine -> instant fadeback nair and it's almost completely safe

is fox's any good/useful?

 

[JPOBS]

fox has a shorter short hop which means he lands faster and is also airborn for less time.

this can be good or bad depending how you look at it.

on one hand, you reach the ground faster whihc means you can do something else faster and react to whatever they do.
on the other hand, im not entirey sure your airborn long enough to DI fully away from characters like sheik and marth with great grab ranges and they MIGHT be able to grab you despite DI'ing back cuz it wont be as good as falcos.
I could be wrong about that though im just theorizing, i dont bother to do it much with fox

 

[Silent Wolf]

foxs shine hitbox is bigger than falcos, if that was a problem you could space all of it a bit further if you needed to.

 

[JPOBS]

indeed, forgot about that.

 

[Silent Wolf]

a cool way to pressure someones shield near the ledge is late nair, shine turn around, fade away bair, then just shine bair accordingly. eggz always does that one.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Good **** guys, productivity lol.

yea, all of these options to beat shield pressure are calculated as frame perfect.

The shine grab is possible to do frame perfectly because its only 1 combo and its almost pretty much just speed with a simple input.

Either way its gonna be alot closer to frame perfect then trying to grab, or shine oos

basically shine grab *****!

 

[FoxLisk]

Why would Marth be in the air? What I believe Kaostar shows is that Marth has a +3 in the frames. Which means he can grab after the shine before you if they expect it.

i was saying if he chose to SH fair, because I was trying to figure out if that was a reasonable response to shinegrabbing or not.

 

[Silent Wolf]

if Marth does up-b instead of grab he can get fox 1 frame before fox can grab him if they both act frame perfectly. wouldnt count on that though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Good to kno.

I kno this is the fox thread, but is the reverse up B the same speed framewise?