Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[RaynEX]

If you're above them and nair won't knock down/juggle, use dair. This can also change depending on what character you're facing. Both of those moves have their uses, and I wouldn't really say one is more important than the other on any stage. If your opponent loves to sit in shield, then even running in and grabbing could be seen as equally important. Same with overshooting dash attacks or dtilts on DD'ers'.

By now you should realize that what move you approach with heavily depends on circumstance and what kind of situation you're in. Don't limit yourself by thinking "dair is only good here, nair is better on this stage and therefore I'll use it sparingly here, here and here."

Be attentive and train yourself to vary your avenues of approach. Many of your best ways of getting in come from punish opportunities, simple reads and good instincts.

On FD:

-Don't go nair hunting all the time. All Foxes start to nair early in their SH so your opponent can see it a mile away. If they are already DDing, they dodge it and you're ****ed. Throwing out nairs is one of the major reasons Fox players get DD grabbed by Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falcon

-Watch for retreating DDs so you can place a good dair and land a combo. If you have a choice between landing nair or dair, wherein you KNOW the move you pick will hit regardless...I'd suggest to go with dair most of the time. It always leads to another move. Nair is susceptible to CC.

-On FD, use nair to catch jumps and dismantle them from below with utilts, etc. IF Sheik likes to FH fair to swat you, wait for the fair to end then nair. If Peach likes to float and fair, let her whiff a few to get a feel for when you should run in for a nair -> juggle.

-Watch for shields so you can grab.

-No escape from the laser on this stage. Pew pew all day.

 

[LooksLikePit]

What do foxes hate the most about Sheik?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

-No escape from the laser on this stage. Pew pew all dai.

Spelled it wrong.

XD Helpful post all the way around, tho'.

Smooth Criminal

 

[FoxLisk]

uh probably gimps. cc grabbing all our aerials is kinda gay too.

 

[mastermoo420]

Okay question on Fox stuff:

SHDLs - any helpful hints on how to do them? Just practice over and over until your hands get faster? P:

Also, regarding SHDLs, would I be right in thinking that their advantage lies in (obviously) the extra damage while SHLs offer more security?

And any hints on a Fox v. Falcon/Sheik/Marth match-up would be useful. Yes, I have read CunningKitsune's guide, but any extra hints would help. What I've gathered from the thread:

Marth:
- L-cancel into shine every SHFFL'd approach or any SHFFL'd move in general to avoid the grabs.
- WD to space correctly and punish the f-smashes

Captain Falcon
- L-cancel into shine as there are lots of WS combos. Plus, I know from personal experience, too, that one grab is all they need.
- Edgeguard like crazy, really; Falcon's recovery sucks, and a good d-smash at higher percentages can just wreck him

Sheik:
- Shine-spike
- U-throw to u-air/u-tilt (used also for stopping aerial approaches)

If you have any other things to add or if any of my pre-conceived notions are wrong, please correct/advise me. P:

Also, for practicing drill-shines, what's the best way? On a computer level 1? On a plugged in controller that doesn't move? On FD? On Fourside against the wall? P:

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Posted this in a different fox thread, but I figured I'd post here too anywayz-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbF9fy-UicU vs falcon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3P2RJdx_EQ vs doc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NldhyRU_bqQ vs shiek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BHiyaADpmo vs fox (extremely new to this matchup)

advice guys? please and thanks.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

This is a pretty random question, but is it better to use y rather than x? because i use x for just regular jumping and waveshining because i'm more consistent with waveshining when i use x. but y for basically everything else like shdl or jumping out of shine into an aerial. It seems like most technical foxes use y to do everything, i just don't know if it's preference or if it actually is better.

 

[Kanelol]

it's preference

////10char

 

[CalamityofCox]

when doing pillars is there an easier way to identify when to l cancel be4 you shine?

 

[Lovage]

omg raynex is back <333333

matches vs. axe from NSH (played in a secret location since the venue had to close)

1.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA3f8FWlZ2M
2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCRswXgX8Aw
3.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qwXnq4-tzM

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yo lovage through me some critique!

 

[SuperRad]

I got some critique:
It's throw not through

 

[ChivalRuse]

when doing pillars is there an easier way to identify when to l cancel be4 you shine?

It's all relative to what you hit with your aerial. If you hit nothing, it's the regular l-cancel timing. If you hit somebody, it's slightly later. If you hit someone's shield, it's even more slightly later.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

oh wow can't believe i did that lol.

 

[AustinRC]

Hello everyone went to a tournament recently and got some of my matches recorded I was wondering if you could critique me and give me some pointers if you could. Please and thank you!

Loser's Finals - AustinRC vs caveman
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pANYKWmGImk
3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2PoxS2MCSs
4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nAuiKtF0UE
5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1-2128wFys

Grand Finals - AustinRC vs FASTLIKETREE
2.2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXHPyUVN4bg
2.3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiHWdT0l2F4
2.4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxOKDFOVn5g
3.2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9swCIi1h4qY
3.3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NALjpx_uuSU
3.4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s39FcN15wOg

Well there you go... I hope you all enjoy them. <3

 

[JPOBS]

just some food for thought:

what do you guys think of nair->dtilt

i've been using it with great success lately vs semi-floaties like ganon/doc/sheik at mid-ish percents where they can't CC and the nair pushes them too far for shines

its basically the lazy/less ballin version of nair->turnaround uptilt but its still pretty pimp

 

[mastermoo420]

Okay question on Fox stuff:

SHDLs - any helpful hints on how to do them? Just practice over and over until your hands get faster? P:

Also, regarding SHDLs, would I be right in thinking that their advantage lies in (obviously) the extra damage while SHLs offer more security?

And any hints on a Fox v. Falcon/Sheik/Marth match-up would be useful. Yes, I have read CunningKitsune's guide, but any extra hints would help. What I've gathered from the thread:

Marth:
- L-cancel into shine every SHFFL'd approach or any SHFFL'd move in general to avoid the grabs.
- WD to space correctly and punish the f-smashes

Captain Falcon
- L-cancel into shine as there are lots of WS combos. Plus, I know from personal experience, too, that one grab is all they need.
- Edgeguard like crazy, really; Falcon's recovery sucks, and a good d-smash at higher percentages can just wreck him

Sheik:
- Shine-spike
- U-throw to u-air/u-tilt (used also for stopping aerial approaches)

If you have any other things to add or if any of my pre-conceived notions are wrong, please correct/advise me. P:

Also, for practicing drill-shines, what's the best way? On a computer level 1? On a plugged in controller that doesn't move? On FD? On Fourside against the wall? P:

Quoting myself and repost. I hate it when I'm the last post on a page and the next person doesn't have feedback on what I said

 

[Teczer0]

You don't really need SHDL. Lasers aren't typically used to deal damage its usually used to force your opponent to advance. I mean you can do it to tack on damage but even then I think SHL is really all you need.

For the drill shines just play vs a lvl 1 Link and just try to do dair waveshine. And just make sure it doesn't feel weird for you. Then just practice the follow up depending on what you want to accomplish.

And you have to be a bit more specific about vs character match ups >_>. I don't really wanna type a giant essay.

 

[Lovage]

yeah shdl sucks you get way more mobility if you just shl and time your lasers correctly.

unless ur playing ganon or something cuz hes big and slow

 

[fLoAtiN]

dumb question but if you are fox playing against falco and you are below the stage on the left side of FD and you are using up+b to recover, and you don't sweetspot it, and the falco SH dairs you, to tech it, I believe you DI towards the stage right after getting dair-ed and then hit L/R right when you are near the exact side of the stage? Is this right? I was always confused if you hit L/R or tap left on the control stick since the latter is how you wall jump, but it seems stupid to do that. If you hit L/R, do you also tap the direction stick to the left to go further out after teching so you don't get dair-ed immediately again, or does the tech automatically do that? thanks.

 

[mastermoo420]

You don't really need SHDL. Lasers aren't typically used to deal damage its usually used to force your opponent to advance. I mean you can do it to tack on damage but even then I think SHL is really all you need.

Yeah, occasionally I tack on some damage while forcing an approach. If I feel like being especially gay, I'll just camp. P: Also, T_T I feel bad for not SHDLing. With such a technical character, I feel it almost to be an obligation to know how to SHDL despite its uselessness. Having a reason like "oh, it's not really useful" seems like a john to me for not knowing how do it. Oh well. P:

And you have to be a bit more specific about vs character match ups >_>. I don't really wanna type a giant essay.

Specific? In what way?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Those are alot of matchups you want covered and just to say 'anyhting else' is really broad. Is there something in particular that is tripping you up in the matchup? Do you know the basic strategy in the matchup? What do you do in the matchup and why or why doesn't it work, in your opinion?

 

[Navn]

Hai Foxes, a few questions i'd like answered.

If done perfectly, is shine > shfllnair etc etc. a "perfect" pressuring technique, meaning that the opponent can only roll away, or does characters with an attack like Screw Attack break it?

How about shine > JC grab? Is it possible for the opponent to punish it, or can they only roll away. I'm thinking perhaps shine OOS or Dolphin Slash can break it, but i don't really know the details.

Also, what are some good OOS options against a pillaring Falco?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Shine out of shield is your best option for a pillaring falco imo.

 

[Lovage]

Hai Foxes, a few questions i'd like answered.

If done perfectly, is shine > shfllnair etc etc. a "perfect" pressuring technique, meaning that the opponent can only roll away, or does characters with an attack like Screw Attack break it?

How about shine > JC grab? Is it possible for the opponent to punish it, or can they only roll away. I'm thinking perhaps shine OOS or Dolphin Slash can break it, but i don't really know the details.

Also, what are some good OOS options against a pillaring Falco?

Thanks in advance!

nair shine pressure isn't perfect, even with good timing it's still pretty easy to shine oos, screw attack or roll against it.

shine jc grab is way slower than people realize, pretty easy to shine oos against or even some aerial oos options work too. it's still a useful mixup if you notice your opponent sitting in his shield at certain times

against pillaring falco shine oos is good
shieldgrab works sometimes if they mess up their timing
usmash oos too, but make sure they're above 30% or its not worth it (at super low percents they can cc the usmash and do stuff)

 

[mastermoo420]

Those are alot of matchups you want covered and just to say 'anyhting else' is really broad. Is there something in particular that is tripping you up in the matchup? Do you know the basic strategy in the matchup? What do you do in the matchup and why or why doesn't it work, in your opinion?

"Anything else" doesn't seem to be that broad, in my opinion. >_> Just choose a match-up, see what I've put, and name one, maybe two, things of situations/general moves that are effective against the characters.

I know basic strategy as pointed out in the original post that I've read CunningKitsune's guide. I wrote what I do in the match-up (along with just plain ol' punishing laggy attacks and combo-ing where it seems appropriate).

One thing I do want to ask specifically, actually, is what to do against a recovering Falcon who's going to land safely on the platform without using their up-B. My friend tends to use u-air a lot (as I try to shine spike him often), and I usually get hit first because he has a bigger hitbox than me. Should I just spice it up with some n-airs/b-airs and keep him guessing while throwing in the occasional shine?

Also, I've seen people chain drill-shines on Marth. Is that just d-air > waveshine > dash > SHFFL'd d-air repeating the chain?

 

[FoxLisk]

mastermoo:

drill shines do not chain on marth unless marth is surprised. he can grab you after the shine or SDI the drill or whatever he feels like.

floatin:

you seem to be confused about how teching works. go read the guide on it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218

if you read that (carefully, repeatedly; it's ****load of information) and still have questions, let us know, but i think that should clear it up for you.

 

[Kanelol]

Someone give me a decent time to use Sh laser turnaround aerial off the edge. I can do it and all, and it seems mad cool, but I just never really see an opening for it. Is it just one of those stupid flashy things that doesn't really have any application in real games?

 

[Roman.]

Someone give me a decent time to use Sh laser turnaround aerial off the edge. I can do it and all, and it seems mad cool, but I just never really see an opening for it. Is it just one of those stupid flashy things that doesn't really have any application in real games?

2v1 in teams

 

[JPOBS]

shine jc grab is way slower than people realize, pretty easy to shine oos against or even some aerial oos options work too. it's still a useful mixup if you notice your opponent sitting in his shield at certain times

against pillaring falco shine oos is good
shieldgrab works sometimes if they mess up their timing
usmash oos too, but make sure they're above 30% or its not worth it (at super low percents they can cc the usmash and do stuff)

Im pretty sure its impossible framewise to shine oos or aerial oos to beat shine grab. shine oos is a stttretch i cant say 100% but i know you cant aerial out and win.

mastermoo:

drill shines do not chain on marth unless marth is surprised. he can grab you after the shine or SDI the drill or whatever he feels like.

just as an fyi, for all intents and purposes, drill shines do technically chain. as in, assuming you get a good wavedash out and/or have momentum going into the shine its actually really easy to combo waveshine into dair vs marth without him being able to grab you straight out of hitstun.

but ya, he can SDI so its not really a good idea but its pretty balla

you can also link waveshines->upsmash in the same way but thats a little harder but doable and is actually hella reliable/garunteed if you can run into them with the shine.
as people get better at SDI'ing the upthrow->upair, waveshine->upsmash should become the new fox meta for killing marths cuz absolutely no one does it now.

 

[Silent Wolf]

you can definitely shine oos if they try to shine grab

Someone give me a decent time to use Sh laser turnaround aerial off the edge. I can do it and all, and it seems mad cool, but I just never really see an opening for it. Is it just one of those stupid flashy things that doesn't really have any application in real games?

The trick to applying "useless" things like this is this: Do similar but different things in that same situation, then switch it up. Here's an example. When they're off stage, do the laser turn around then jump back to the ledge, maybe even do it twice. That way they'll be expecting you to do that again and you can go for the bair instead. Also, don't make a concrete decision with it before you know it's going to work just because he might not be expecting it, see what things are looking like during the laser and decide from there. A shine might be more suitable in some situations (lower percent or if theyre someone that falls far from shine)

 

[TresChikon]

It's only impossible to shieldgrab a shinegrab; the shine offers enough shieldstun to give Falco frame advantage.

but spotdodge/roll and shine OoS definitely can be used.

EDIT: what's wrong with the search function!! I CANT LURK ANYMORE!!

 

[CalamityofCox]

What are some key points to know when playing against a falcon?

 

[Navn]

Thanks for the quick and precise responses! =)

 

[booshk]

hey guys i main marth and back in 2007 i used to play fox a bit but i quit for like 2 years and now im trying to pick him up again.
im just wondering some thing about shield pressuring with shine->nair?
do u guys just do it really fast or do u use z for the nair or use control stick to jump or anything?
u need to get the nair out right away right? like sheiks nair oos?

 

[EC_Joey]

What are some key points to know when playing against a falcon?

• Don't get grabbed
• Mix up your techrolls/techs-in-place/no-techs
• Waveshines lead to grabs
• Grabs lead to up-tilt/uair/bair
• Edgeguard with bair/shine/dsmash
• Approach with well-spaced short hop nair/bair
• Laser from a good distance

hey guys i main marth and back in 2007 i used to play fox a bit but i quit for like 2 years and now im trying to pick him up again.
im just wondering some thing about shield pressuring with shine->nair?
do u guys just do it really fast or do u use z for the nair or use control stick to jump or anything?
u need to get the nair out right away right? like sheiks nair oos?

I do nair-shines with Y and A. The timing of the nair depends on what character you're playing against and what you want to do. Nairing too early leaves you open against some characters, and a good opponent will notice if you nair late every time and do something before you nair. It's best to either time the nair somewhere in the middle, or just mix up the timing.

There are a lot of other things you can do with nair-shines too. For instance, you can do what Mango does and nair as early as possible while jumping back out of grab range to bait a whiffed shieldgrab. Or you can take note of what direction they tend to roll away and instead of nairing again, waveshine to punish.

 

[mastermoo420]

• Don't get grabbed
• Mix up your techrolls/techs-in-place/no-techs
• Waveshines lead to grabs
• Grabs lead to up-tilt/uair/bair
• Edgeguard with bair/shine/dsmash
• Approach with well-spaced short hop nair/bair
• Laser from a good distance

I agree with you for the most part. For the second bullet, you need to be careful of your no-techs and techs-in-place because a Falcon can knee you. For the third bullet, waveshines also lead into smashes; d-smash will be you best near the ledge due to the nature of Falcon's crappy recovery. As for grabs, you can really do anything with grabs; tech-chasing a Falcon isn't too hard, either.

In response to what you said about n-airs, I recommend you n-air earlier than later. I mean, it's a sex kick; it's going to stay out there for a bit so, although having it come out right when you hit them is best, having it earlier is better than not having it come out at all.

@booshk: Do not try to SH with the control stick; your mind will get ***** by the concentration required. It's possible, but when you're fighting and moving around and stuff, the X or Y button is much better.

Btw, Y button ftw :D

 

[CalamityofCox]

thank guys and i think my main problem is i get tech-chased too easily.

 

[unknown522]

n-air -> shine pressure can sometimes screw you over. If they SH over the shine with a d-air, that can lead to a big combo, so be careful.

 

[cykofox]

n-air -> shine pressure can sometimes screw you over. If they SH over the shine with a d-air, that can lead to a big combo, so be careful.

yeah basically know when to shine and how to hit his shield. space **** on it, anticipate rolls, watchout for dair and nair(fastest oos option for him) hits from behind also.