Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[mastermoo420]

Yeah, lol. Bringing this up again, just in case it got lost in the confusion:

Do you mean dash-cancel? Also, does that mean that anyone with traction greater than or equal to Marth's is waveshineable?

 

[joeplicate]

nah, with marth you need to jump to cancel your initial dash out of waveshine (having a good/perfect wd helps)

dash-canceling is a little too slow i think

it's the difference between upsmash oos and running fsmash with marth

 

[voorhese]

Unknown522 posting again:

You can run after the WD and JC the shine to combo marth with it.

this is what i was saying here a long time ago =P

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah, lol. Bringing this up again, just in case it got lost in the confusion:

You just can't dash cancel in the dashing animation, such as... out of a DD.

So you need to learn pivots or JCs to do smashes during the initial dash.

Although I do have a question.

Once you're out of the initial dash, is JC still faster than crouch cancelling something?

 

[PK Webb]

Is the inputs for wavedashin backwards slower than wavedashing forward

 

[GOD!]

Alright, my wb match vs GG7 was finally uploaded. These, and a LB match i played almost immediately after this are the two matches i'm REALLY, REALLY looking for critique on. I played very well against both players and i think it'd be a great way to evaluate what i need to work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5lPnBL6WNc&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef4tukbS51Q&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54hPTtZP3Bg&feature=sub

this was last month. i have a monthly tomorrow, so I would GREATLY appreciate ANY, AND ALL critique.

Just a few things I noticed, not nearly as insightful as unknown but:

1) when you are both standing still and are close to eachother, you always tend to dash away, then dash back nair/grab/dair. Mix up.
2) You need to shield more (like unknown said). And when you ran away you would usually just run back into his jab, or get hit anyway because he would predict your dash.
3) You ledgehop drilled from ledge either 9/12 or 8/11 times that you were on the edge and he was on the stage (you stood up once, ledgehopped no aerial once, and doraki walljumped to illusion once).
4) You don't have to approach. You just seemed like you were constantly dash dancing and doing movement tricks, and then approaching, but you forgot about lasering.
5)Instead of wavesine >usmash, you could waveshine grab, nair, follow tech, continue. You didn't seem to be getting any combos going.
6) He was controlling the center of the stage really well and keeping his back off the edge, especially in the 3rd match, you get a hit, then run away from him to some edge and let him take the center of the stage. If you keep pressuring him and just get him off, edgeguarding is the easy part, or it should be.
7) Charge fsmash, hoping they miss the sweetspot, isn't a very effective ledgegurading technique.

 

[`DNS`]

Well I recorded some friendlies with my friend today.. I was watching one of them and this happened;

I was fox, he was jiggs, i hit him with a phantom nair, he hit me with a phantom (something), and he aerial-DI'd into my nair which hit him again

 

[Lovage]

Well I recorded some friendlies with my friend today.. I was watching one of them and this happened;

I was fox, he was jiggs, i hit him with a phantom nair, he hit me with a phantom (something), and he aerial-DI'd into my nair which hit him again

its cuz you can smash di phantom hits so he smash di'd the phantom into the real hit
this happens sometimes

 

[GOD!]

something weird just happened to me.

I was practicing SDI and teching with fox against samus fully charged blast.

As fox, I had the c-stick held down, and then as the blast hot me, I smashed the control stick in a quarter circle inwards (from top left to bottom left) and let go of the cstick (during hitlag I think). My finger hit the b button accidentally while leaving the cstick, and

1) I received no damage
2) I ended up in my reflector
3) The blast didn't reflect.

Does anyone know what the heck happened? Cause I'm really confused.

 

[voorhese]

something weird just happened to me.

I was practicing SDI and teching with fox against samus fully charged blast.

As fox, I had the c-stick held down, and then as the blast hot me, I smashed the control stick in a quarter circle inwards (from top left to bottom left) and let go of the cstick (during hitlag I think). My finger hit the b button accidentally while leaving the cstick, and

1) I received no damage
2) I ended up in my reflector
3) The blast didn't reflect.

Does anyone know what the heck happened? Cause I'm really confused.

hmmmmm interesting

MAGUS!!!!!

 

[RaynEX]

If falcon DIs the uthrow.. could you techchase?
Sounds horribly unreasonable but idk.

At 0, you can't combo anything besides utilt. He's heavy, and the animation of throwing him up takes too long. By the time your throw lag subsides, it will be too late for usmash and he'll already be teching. Falcon's tech is really, really slow...so if he d.i.s at below 10, just start moving and re-grab him. At about 20 you can start usmashing with no d.i.

Just remember to not go for a nair if he d.i.s away at super low percents, or you'll miss an easy techchase grab. Everyone makes this mistake, thinking they can catch him with it or something.

Okay my old question coming up again because I looked at the topic, and it didn't answer one part of my questions.

So how do you continually waveshine on people with less traction? I saw a video of Zhu flying across a little over 1/4 of FD, I'd say, in a split second. Wavedash doesn't get you that far with Fox even if you can do it perfectly. Tips/tricks/solutions/answers?

Also, when does u-throw > u-air work? Listing any (besides the aforementioned 95%+ for Sheik on the last page, IIRC) characters and percentages would be helpful since I could just look up the weight classes.

I already made a list for this, so I'll post it again for you to read.

Most characters can't be continuously waveshined. It all depends on their traction. If they slide too far from the shine, then you'd have to SH aerial/grab/usmash to continue comboing them.

Characters that can't be waveshined repeatedly (shine->shine->shine) should immediately be usmashed or grabbed after you successfully land a shine. Once you've perfected those B&B techniques, you can start mixing it up with waveshine-> nair/dair/dsmash/utilt etc.



Characters you can waveshine repeatedly:

Bowser
Falcon
DK
Ganon
Link
Peach
Sheik/Zelda
Yoshi
Samus

Characters that can't be waveshined repeatedly:
(JC shine-able characters are listed below)

(Just because they can't be waveshined over and over again, DOES NOT mean a grab or usmash will not combo. Marth/Mario/Doc/Ness for example, can be waveshine comboed into usmash and grab. Some characters, due to their terrible traction, can't be comboed at all after a shine.)



*can only be comboed by an illusion after a JCed shine or in a corner.

Luigi
Ice Climbers


*can be comboed with most moves after waveshine, excluding another shine. (JC shines can work on these characters)

Mario
Doc
Marth
Ness

Keep in mind that the angles of certain levels will kill follow-ups. Corneria and DK64 are good examples. Sometimes when you shine they will be knocked into the air or bounce because of the sloped ground. When an opponent has been shined into the air or while in the air, their landing animation cancels out the shine's stun or "pushback frames". They can then do anything freely from that neutral position (i.e. Roll, shield, attack, jump)

Characters that fall down from the shine:

(if you land a shine on these characters, I suggest you go for a thunders combo (waveshine -> jab), or techchase grab, usmash, or any other move you think will work.)


Falco
Fox
Game and Watch
Jiggs
Kirby
Mewtwo
Pikachu
Pichu
Roy
Young Link

--------------------------

Posting all the percentages for every character regarding uthrow uair would be really tedious. General uthrow uair rule is that if it is known to combo on them, it is safe to do in upwards of 30%, and slightly lower with certain characters.

Do you mean dash-cancel? Also, does that mean that anyone with traction greater than or equal to Marth's is waveshineable?

Jump cancel and dash-cancel are two different thinks. Jump cancelling involves you running -> jumping -> cancelling the jump with a move (i.e: JC grab). Dash cancelling is simply holding down while you are running, which cancels your run. This is not to be confused with crouch cancelling, which is related to cancelling hitstun after taking a hit.

Marth/Mario/Doc/Ness can be JC shined continuously., but its hard to do and not worth it. To JC shine, start running, jump, perform a shine. The key is cancelling the jump fast enough to stay on the ground with shine. Repeat this until you have achieved your desired result.

whats a dash cancel?

Go into a full run with any character, then hold down. By crouching, you have cancelled your dash. voila

Is the inputs for wavedashin backwards slower than wavedashing forward

It can be, but it shouldn't. The reason people do it slower, is because they don't want to accidentally turn around. Also, the inputs for both waveshines are slightly different. You have to angle the control AFTER you jump for the backwards waveshine, otherwise you'll sit in shine and turn around.

 

[TresChikon]

something weird just happened to me.

I was practicing SDI and teching with fox against samus fully charged blast.

As fox, I had the c-stick held down, and then as the blast hot me, I smashed the control stick in a quarter circle inwards (from top left to bottom left) and let go of the cstick (during hitlag I think). My finger hit the b button accidentally while leaving the cstick, and

1) I received no damage
2) I ended up in my reflector
3) The blast didn't reflect.

Does anyone know what the heck happened? Cause I'm really confused.

Shine doesn't reflect till frame 4, but it can still absorb a hit prior to that frame.

If the shot already made contact with you and you hit down-b during or after hitlag then I have no clue what happened.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hold your horses. So if Falcon DIs Fox's u-throw away or behind, he can't jump out before he hits the ground?

 

[TresChikon]

Normally he can jump out of a regrab w/o DI, but not a quicker followup like u-tilt, so I think he's just barely making it when he jumps out of a u-throw, so it would make sense that any DI should change that.

An altered trajectory would cause his body to travel closer to the ground, so yeah. But Falcon's pretty much screwed for all intents and purposes, so yay!

 

[RaynEX]

Hold your horses. So if Falcon DIs Fox's u-throw away or behind, he can't jump out before he hits the ground?

At low enough percents, yes. He sacrifices neutral d.i. + jump, for directional d.i. + tech in order to escape his opponent.

 

[ChivalRuse]

OMG I didn't know that. Now I'm gonna **** Falcons even harder.

 

[TresChikon]

Now I'm gonna **** Falcons even harder.

fix'd

10savagebeatings

EDIT: boo you edited it, now my overused joke doesn't make sense

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'll edit it back.

 

[Rubyiris]

Monthlies were yesterday. Got 4th in teams, and 7th in singles. =D

Vids will be up in a few days.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Good stuff, Ruby.

 

[PK Webb]

How does 1 waveshine backwards and still jab when I try I dash attack

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's exactly the same inputs as waveshine forward -> jab. Keep trying.

 

[Sockless]

hey i jump with up for everyting except wave dashing and it makes every thing alot easier: short hop double lazer, jumping out of shine, shine bair, shine shuffle, Shine short hop double laser. it keeps me technical i mean i can do basicly every thing you did in FRANKINSTIEN but my combos are lacking some skill, should i drop my habbit of jumping with up or what?

 

[Diakonos]

Fox players tell me about my foxx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkLYs-r6fDA&feature=related

 

[TresChikon]

hey i jump with up for everyting except wave dashing and it makes every thing alot easier: short hop double lazer, jumping out of shine, shine bair, shine shuffle, Shine short hop double laser. it keeps me technical i mean i can do basicly every thing you did in FRANKINSTIEN but my combos are lacking some skill, should i drop my habbit of jumping with up or what?

That's pretty neat, the only drawback I can think of is retreating aerial is more awkward. However, if you're having trouble with comboing, it's probably more attributed to your ability to follow and observe DI instead.

tl;dr

Keep stickjumping, follow and watch DI better.

 

[`DNS`]

its cuz you can smash di phantom hits so he smash di'd the phantom into the real hit
this happens sometimes

no he didn't sdi it at all, he just floated around a bit and then floated into me so i hit him again

i'll upload the video later, it was pretty cool

 

[Tomacawk]

Is the inputs for wavedashin backwards slower than wavedashing forward

I'm not sure if this is fact but I find it impossible to waveshine backwards unless you have the control stick in the neutral position and then get it to where it needs to be before you hit R/L

How does 1 waveshine backwards and still jab when I try I dash attack

you have to waveshine backwards, then pivot a jab. You're dash attacking because you do not have your control stick in the neutral position when you are hitting A.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Can someone please link me to the most up to date matchup guide for fox?

decided to pick him up.

also while i'm here could I please get some advice from whoever?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es4lPDK3314
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPnxYY201bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fjLYV8Fm5w (vs. Falcon)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwEgoRm1_2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy1LxGGQG5I

Extremely new to the jiggs matchup.

 

[EWC]

How does 1 waveshine backwards and still jab when I try I dash attack

When you do your wavedash, hold the control stick in that direction for just a little bit longer than normal, so you turn around right at the end. Then tap A.

 

[Tomacawk]

*can only be comboed by an illusion after a JCed shine or in a corner.

Luigi
Ice Climbers

this is actually false. you can combo a dash attack.
somebody asked for puff advice earlier so I'm gunna write up my thoughts on the matchup

the matchup vs puff is pretty gay. her bair ***** your everything except bair and if the puff is good you will never land a usmash on them; she also has pretty simple ledge guarding on you and if she makes it past ~60% you're not killing her for a long time unless you can manage to get a usmash or weird upair off.

spacing game
when you're spacing each other out, puff is going to basically spam bairs in your **** and then float backwards out of punishing range. the only way fox can beat this is to laser or backair camp (platforms help for this). wd back and ftilt is also an option but it isn't really a good one. if you decide to approach puff, use nair and don't get cc'd into a rest of anythign dumb like that. if they're ccing then grab approach of dair approach. this matchup is the only matchup where I go into the match ready to laser spam (which isn't necessarily good that I only do it here). anyway the point is laser spam that ho because she's ultimately gayer than you are.
killing puff
this is why i hate puff so much. usmash and upair kill her really early but the problem is that the only reliable way to usmash is if they whiff a pound or a rest, and the only reliable way to uair is if they DI a nair /bair into you really hard and you follow with a fullhop uair, or is if you get a grab. another problem is puff cannot be uthrow uair'd past around 60% if they don't di the uthrow. if they di your uthrow you can get it later in the stock but it's much harder because you have to be really fast. my advice for getting these kills early is to quit lasering in mid 50% range and start looking for the grab. if you get a grab from 45-60ish, uthrow asap in hopes that they miss the di, giving you a far easier uair. at 60-75ish, do not uthrow right away because you want them to DI or else you can't get the uair. if puff makes it past this crucial percent, then you're gunna have to keep pounding her with lasers, bairs, and nairs until she dies. this may take awhile if you're on a big map.
the only other reliable early kill on puff is ledge guarding her if she's recovering from anywhere except high above the ledge. keeping your ledge invicibility is key; it's easy to shine spike her or ledgehop bair if you're keeping yourself save. however, remember that when in doubt, get the fvck out. don't risk getting hit if you're not sure you're safe because if you get high while you're hanging on the ledge your stock is gone. another neat trick is puff will always air dodge when out of jumps while you're hanging on the ledge, so you can ledgehop upair and get an early kill that way, too. just aim the upair to where they dodged.
not dieing to puff
try to mash out of every single grab as fast as you can. get in this habit. it will save you from a lot of uthrow rests simply because you di on accident from mashing, and it will often times get you out of the grab. just be sure to di up if you're at a high % and gunna be fthrown.
recovering is **** near impossible against puff. if she bthrows you at the ledge, there are pretty much 4 scenarios. you can doublejump high and air dodge or side b and try to get through her before she can nair/fair, or you can drop low and firefox, or you can shinestall and make a decision after that. any one of these can be exploited by puff. good puffs will cover multiple of these options and punish you. once she comes off the map it's pretty much a guess/reaction game by her, going low to get you or expecting you to go high. imo the best chance to survive in this scenario is to somehow get a walljump just because most puffs will be thrown off by that.

tl;dr spam bairs and lasers. play gay. dont get grabbed and stay on the map.

 

[AnDaLe]

i sware, all u have to do against puff is laser spam that gun, run away, more laser spam, and look for rare chances to hit her or grab her for the kill. Cuz if any fox goes directly into the fight with a puff, be prepared to be rested.

 

[Tomacawk]

i sware, all u have to do against puff is laser spam that gun, run away, more laser spam, and look for rare chances to hit her or grab her for the kill. Cuz if any fox goes directly into the fight with a puff, be prepared to be rested.

if only it were this easy.
also I will critique your guys' videos but not tonight. I will have time tomorrow night or tuesday.
edit-I did some research in training mode. fair combos into usmash at %s where uthrow uair is no longer viable (70+) and at really high %s such as 130 or 120 soft nair can combo into dj uairs.

 

[Incronaut]

this may be a silly question, but is there like a proven most efficient way of getting out of a grab?

i mean, im sure the c-stick doesnt help in getting out of a grab, or does it? does rotating the controller help? yeah... O_o"

 

[Tomacawk]

rotate the control stick with your left thumb, and with your right hand you may either rotate the c stick, or mash a/b/x/y/z (whichever you can do faster)
the key is to recognize when you ****ed up and are getting grabbed and begin mashing before you've even been grabbed

 

[AprilShaw]

With fast throws I prefer to hold my DI on the control stick and just mash the a/b/x/y/r with my right hand xP I don't break out as fast but I'd rather not miss my DI against stuff like jiggs uthrow, fox uthrow, etc.

 

[EWC]

if only it were this easy.
also I will critique your guys' videos but not tonight. I will have time tomorrow night or tuesday.
edit-I did some research in training mode. fair combos into usmash at %s where uthrow uair is no longer viable (70+) and at really high %s such as 130 or 120 soft nair can combo into dj uairs.

If you are fast, you can combo up throw uair at least as high as 80%, maybe even a little higher. It's hard, but learning to upthrow uair perfectly is probably the easiest thing you can do to get an upper hand in the matchup.

As you noted, there are also a bunch of ways to combo soft aerial hits into upsmash/uair at kill percents, but they all require neutral/survival di to work. It's still useful to know if you can catch them off guard on a bad di.

One trick that is quite useful to land free grabs/upsmashes when you are low percents is run straight into her when she does at retreating falling aerial, crouch-cancel, and then dash grab/JC upsmash.

Other than that, the matchup is mostly about lasers, spaced nairs/bairs and playing really carfully.

 

[Tomacawk]

ok I just tested it in training mode. I couldn't get a uair to combo after 79% on no di, and it took multiple times to get it right not only because the fullhop had to be so fast, but also because the doublejump has to be timed perfectly in addition to the upair hitting properly--a lot of times with no sdi the puff wasn't getting hit by the 2nd part of the uair
so let me rephrase my earlier claim:uthrow uair after 60% becomes much more difficult to land
I find it highly unlikely that a uthrow at 79% will ever get you a kill due to how easy it is so SDI out of it (and sometimes not at all necessary)

 

[EWC]

I just tested it, and I was able to get it register consecutive hits at 96% (before the grab) several times in a row. At 97%, I got it once. At 98%, I couldn't hit it at all. To be fair, I have the timing for this down really well, since I play against a good jiggs a few times a week. A good way to tell if you're jumping fast enough after the upthrow is to hold down L during the throw animation. If you see your shield come up, then you're not jumping as fast as possible.

Also worth noting is that if you double jump and uair at almost exactly the same time, you will reach the top of your jump just as the second hit comes out. This means that, at these high percents, you can do upthrow into only the second hit of the uair, so they cannot sdi out.

 

[Tomacawk]

I just tested it, and I was able to get it register consecutive hits at 96% (before the grab) several times in a row. At 97%, I got it once. At 98%, I couldn't hit it at all. To be fair, I have the timing for this down really well, since I play against a good jiggs a few times a week. A good way to tell if you're jumping fast enough after the upthrow is to hold down L during the throw animation. If you see your shield come up, then you're not jumping as fast as possible.

Also worth noting is that if you double jump and uair at almost exactly the same time, you will reach the top of your jump just as the second hit comes out. This means that, at these high percents, you can do upthrow into only the second hit of the uair, so they cannot sdi out.

Yeah I only tried a few times at 80% then I just stopped trying. I was doing it in training mode. I wish I had a 2nd controller so I could buffer a jump with cstick after the uthrow and get pretty conclusive results
I find it interesting that I am probably only 2-4 frames slower than you and it makes such a huge difference in the % combo-ability
I suppose I should practice uthrow upairing jiggs O.o

 

[EWC]

Yeah, the frames for this are pretty tight. it's definitely something that is needs practicing, until the timing is second nature.