Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[joeplicate]

wow i should get in here more often, instead of just like once a month when i'm bored

this thread's so active

kline wtf you don't play fox mah d00d

 

[KAOSTAR]

I play fox. U cant help but be inspired watching silent wolf and eggz.

 

[Tomacawk]

fox boards what do you think of my fox?
moneymatch vs kels-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F6IzbL1Zs0
seriouslies vs kels' falco-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeL1Po4uXs
vs ORLY's falcon-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13lvBh_AUXQ
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lKSRsjiuTE
there are various doubles matches of me too from this tournament.
Vs ORLY I feel like I lost all my momentum after that SD (i sd so much trying to shinehog, never even attempting it again in tourny) and I think that I failed to realize that instead of trying to bait rolls/wds oos i should have been punishing the aerials oos he kept throwing out and abused his over aggressive style by platform camping
Vs Kels I think I just lost my composure

 

[Scidadle]

Too much up smash.

And vs falco i think you under estimate what ledgehop bair can do vs his recovery

But I suck. So

 

[Jupz]

Is run/jump off stage->rising Nair/Bair back on the stage a good gimping tactic? Also, is it possible to run off the stage and just turn around and grab the ledge, or do you have to wavedash backwards?

 

[PK Webb]

U can walk and turn around at the edge or run off shine and firefox right at the edge....running off nair is good if u no how to land back on the stage.....reno does it often and I picked it up myself

 

[xbombr]

You can run off and phantasm back towards the ledge too. It's pretty quick if you get the sweet spot and there's a lot less possibility for error than the shine firefox hog.

 

[Jupz]

Ok, thanks guys

 

[EC_Joey]

Is run/jump off stage->rising Nair/Bair back on the stage a good gimping tactic?

Depends on the character you're playing against. It works well against characters like Falco and Falcon if you time it correctly, but it doesn't usually work out well against Sheik.

Also, is it possible to run off the stage and just turn around and grab the ledge, or do you have to wavedash backwards?

It's possible with Falcon if you pivot at the edge, but I'm not sure about Fox.

Apart from edge-canceling the illusion into a sweetspot illusion onto the ledge, his fastest option is shinehog, where you run at the ledge, shine turnaround, and jump out of the shine just as you clear the edge. If done correctly the jump gets canceled and you just drop down and grab the ledge.

Run at ledge > shine > turnaround > wavedash onto the ledge is also a really fast option, and the timing isn't as tricky.

EDIT:

fox boards what do you think of my fox?
moneymatch vs kels-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5pHM-o2_Dk
seriouslies vs kels' falco-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeL1Po4uXs
vs ORLY's falcon-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13lvBh_AUXQ
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lKSRsjiuTE
there are various doubles matches of me too from this tournament.
Vs ORLY I feel like I lost all my momentum after that SD (i sd so much trying to shinehog, never even attempting it again in tourny) and I think that I failed to realize that instead of trying to bait rolls/wds oos i should have been punishing the aerials oos he kept throwing out and abused his over aggressive style by platform camping
Vs Kels I think I just lost my composure

Nice Tom Petty song. I only watched the matches vs. ORLY. To me, it seems like you need to work on your tech chasing. On the Pokemon Stadium match you did an upthrow to upsmash, and instead of waiting for his tech you walked forward a little and whiffed an upsmash while he teched behind you. You need to play more patiently and react to what he's doing. Techchasing Falcon with a grab to upthrow to upsmash/uair should be your bread and butter. I felt like you were focusing more on being technical than focusing on your opponent.

 

[Rubyiris]

first fox videos recorded since like september 09.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCuh8wzXxHk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE0rWD3fTco

Looking for any critique.

Also that day me and Shiv beat Tee Ay Eye and Forward 2-1 ;D

 

[Lovage]

shine turnaround firefox is my favorite way to grab the edge

it's pretty fast, it's much harder to SD with, and sometimes it tricks people to go to the edge because they don't know when you will grab it.

 

[Tomacawk]

lol how did tom petty get in there
****** song though
editting that post with the actual link to me vs kels in dittos
anybody else have comments on my fox
you don't have to be good, I want to know what you guys think I've been working really hard on stepping up
also RAYNEX
what do you have to say about my matches with kels?

 

[Rubyiris]

Critique please.

 

[`DNS`]

I like reverse ledgecancelled SHL.. or shine turnaround SH backwards

If I need to get there faster then yeah, shine turnaround wavedash

 

[Tomacawk]

ugh doubles = meh but okay I'll check out your stuff
yo so i watched game 3. you have a really solid fox. the only recurring issues i saw were you were kinda of hasty to get near the ledge vs pika and sheik. against those 2 i don't even try to challenge them. i either camp with doublejump just out of their everything range and bair if they try to come up or just back up and laser. you also made crucial mistakes by dedicating yourself to doublejumping in a bad spot (usually near the ledge) but you air dodged at least one of the times so I can tell you knew it was a bad idea. just keep your composure and stay focused
also you had a tendency to roll towards somebody when you missed a tech and they waited for you to do stuff
other than that good stuff

 

[Rubyiris]

@ the roll thing: Hell yeah, that's the kind of stuff I need to know.

Problem I have with Fox: My thumb locks up alot. Maybe about 40% of every game I play with fox my thumb stiffens up. How do I fix this?

Just imagine only being able to sh aerial 60% of the time, and only being able to drill (optional) shine > wavedash > grab/usmash less than 30% of the time. <_<

 

[RaynEX]

lol how did tom petty get in there
****** song though
editting that post with the actual link to me vs kels in dittos
anybody else have comments on my fox
you don't have to be good, I want to know what you guys think I've been working really hard on stepping up
also RAYNEX
what do you have to say about my matches with kels?

Fox ditto with Kels was legit, but there were a few things you could have done to ensure match wins.

-First edge-guard: if you had done a shine or bair again, instead of flailing off into a bair, he would have died. That was a free stock, and he was in point blank bair/dair/shine edge-guard range. To be fair, you ended up killing him anyways, but in a tournament match second chances are few and far between.

-2:06: never ever drop that low unless you're going to shine. I have no idea how you made it back, but never try it again. lol that stock was as simple as pressing the L button.

-You seem to get chased down and pressured/hit more than Kels does. At lower percents you should stand your ground in your shield or with a CC. Even neutral jump to avoid approaches and drop back with through with shield pressure. Every other instance in DD wars was you running away and Kels giving chase. This almost always resulted in you getting hit first and taking big damage. Try to stop him from running right into you by throwing bairs out as he dashes in. Shielding his attacks and WDing oos past him to rotate positioning and corner him instead, etc (near the edge). There were also many instances were you would try to DD out range, but Kels would just keep chasing you until you had no more stage left. You would be forced use a predictable escape/defensive option (jump on platform, roll, sidestep, etc), and you'd get hit. Imo, you need to watch your matches and isolate parts of your game that put you at a disadvantage, and keep them in check so you corner yourself less. Things like sitting in your shield too long (i.e.: getting grabbed, pressured), dashdancing away and cornering yourself; these are techniques that need tweaking so you get their benefits but none of the drawbacks. Fox dittos are all about space management; always having enough room to dodge something and dish it back. Close quarters combat is too sporadic in this match-up, and any random shine/grab/usmash can yield a stock.

-4:34, 4:39 : These were probably just random bad habits you don't slip into in tournament sets, right? Nonethess, try to get that jab reset stuff out of your head when you have a free combo opp. The shine bair portion is beyond explaining. You know you should have done an aerial and edge-guarded his ***.

-You can jump/shine out of Fox ditto CGs at 55% if you neutral d.i. At 56% on one of your stocks you d.i.ed to the right (which increases CG viability to 80%). If you had stayed in place, you would have escaped and taken less damage. This is reeeally important.

-4:57 : I think one of your biggest weaknesses is your inability to simply watch what your opponent is doing and react. Kels was just spamming moves around, and you decided to SH uair into him for some reason. FH Bair, shield then uair, usmash as an "anti-air", DD grabbing...there were a whole slew of options you could have chosen from. He was near the edge, which means if you knocked him down the chasing would have been easier. Most people who get knocked down and are close to certain death tech extremely predictably (i.e. towards center stage). To me, its just one more time you could have surveyed the situation better, and done something that would have been more beneficial in the long run.

-6:08, patience is key. Edge-guarding is all about not missing that one chance. You would have taken that stock if you had paced yourself.

You've gotten alot better, but there are holes in your game Kels took advantage of. Clean those up and you'll be beast.

 

[Tomacawk]

Fox ditto with Kels was legit, but there were a few things you could have done to ensure match wins.

-First edge-guard: if you had done a shine or bair again, instead of flailing off into a bair, he would have died. That was a free stock, and he was in point blank bair/dair/shine edge-guard range. To be fair, you ended up killing him anyways, but in a tournament match second chances are few and far between.

-2:06: never ever drop that low unless you're going to shine. I have no idea how you made it back, but never try it again. lol that stock was as simple as pressing the L button.

-You seem to get chased down and pressured/hit more than Kels does. At lower percents you should stand your ground in your shield or with a CC. Even neutral jump to avoid approaches and drop back with through with shield pressure. Every other instance in DD wars was you running away and Kels giving chase. This almost always resulted in you getting hit first and taking big damage. Try to stop him from running right into you by throwing bairs out as he dashes in. Shielding his attacks and WDing oos past him to rotate positioning and corner him instead, etc (near the edge). There were also many instances were you would try to DD out range, but Kels would just keep chasing you until you had no more stage left. You would be forced use a predictable escape/defensive option (jump on platform, roll, sidestep, etc), and you'd get hit. Imo, you need to watch your matches and isolate parts of your game that put you at a disadvantage, and keep them in check so you corner yourself less. Things like sitting in your shield too long (i.e.: getting grabbed, pressured), dashdancing away and cornering yourself; these are techniques that need tweaking so you get their benefits but none of the drawbacks. Fox dittos are all about space management; always having enough room to dodge something and dish it back. Close quarters combat is too sporadic in this match-up, and any random shine/grab/usmash can yield a stock.

-4:34, 4:39 : These were probably just random bad habits you don't slip into in tournament sets, right? Nonethess, try to get that jab reset stuff out of your head when you have a free combo opp. The shine bair portion is beyond explaining. You know you should have done an aerial and edge-guarded his ***.

-You can jump/shine out of Fox ditto CGs at 55% if you neutral d.i. At 56% on one of your stocks you d.i.ed to the right (which increases CG viability to 80%). If you had stayed in place, you would have escaped and taken less damage. This is reeeally important.

-4:57 : I think one of your biggest weaknesses is your inability to simply watch what your opponent is doing and react. Kels was just spamming moves around, and you decided to SH uair into him for some reason. FH Bair, shield then uair, usmash as an "anti-air", DD grabbing...there were a whole slew of options you could have chosen from. He was near the edge, which means if you knocked him down the chasing would have been easier. Most people who get knocked down and are close to certain death tech extremely predictably (i.e. towards center stage). To me, its just one more time you could have surveyed the situation better, and done something that would have been more beneficial in the long run.

-6:08, patience is key. Edge-guarding is all about not missing that one chance. You would have taken that stock if you had paced yourself.

You've gotten alot better, but there are holes in your game Kels took advantage of. Clean those up and you'll be beast.

thank you raynex! This stuff is exactly what I was hoping for. I have enough fox knowledge that I always know the best option for every situation, I just have difficulties positioning myself for that option or executing it under pressure. I thought the CG was at 60% exactly, not 55? I will definitely remember that. I feel like the only thing I can do to get better now is just keep playing and encountering styles that counter me and fixing the problems they expose in my style

 

[iamthemicrowave]

looking good luke, im still gonna run a train on you next time we play

 

[Tomacawk]

looking good luke, im still gonna run a train on you next time we play

smym is close man! we gotta play a bunch

 

[iamthemicrowave]

smym is close man! we gotta play a bunch

cant go to smym, going to FL!! hopefully we can find a venue for jab and you guys can come down

 

[Tomacawk]

ohhh ****it I already knew that I'm just used to thinking everybody will be at SMYM. man wtf...you and alan both not going is pretty lame
yeah man jab 3 needs a venue ><

 

[joeplicate]

fox boards what do you think of my fox?
moneymatch vs kels-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F6IzbL1Zs0
seriouslies vs kels' falco-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeL1Po4uXs
vs ORLY's falcon-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13lvBh_AUXQ
-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lKSRsjiuTE
there are various doubles matches of me too from this tournament.
Vs ORLY I feel like I lost all my momentum after that SD (i sd so much trying to shinehog, never even attempting it again in tourny) and I think that I failed to realize that instead of trying to bait rolls/wds oos i should have been punishing the aerials oos he kept throwing out and abused his over aggressive style by platform camping
Vs Kels I think I just lost my composure

it's like that one song
"you do all the right things, at exactly the right time"

except it looks like you just need more experience to tighten up your game in general, plus kels has you on lock at the approaching game. you do a lot of good stuff, you just need to learn when to apply it all better.

i'll do a bigger writeup after midterms tomorrow

 

[RaynEX]

it's like that one song
"you do all the right things, at exactly the right time"

except it looks like you just need more experience to tighten up your game in general, plus kels has you on lock at the approaching game. you do a lot of good stuff, you just need to learn when to apply it all better.

i'll do a bigger writeup after midterms tomorrow

Every time I see you post I keep thinking "lol that dude beat jman"

We never got to play at Pound though.

Lozr, Kels and I sat down and rotated at one point. Where you at replicate!?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I didn't know about that rotation.

How'd LoZR do?


Uhhh.....

I don't know much about comboing Sheik with Fox(you could say I second him). Anyone have pointers?

 

[`DNS`]

uthrow uair
waveshine
nair
uthrow again
uair a few more times

 

[RaynEX]

I didn't know about that rotation.

How'd LoZR do?


Uhhh.....

I don't know much about comboing Sheik with Fox(you could say I second him). Anyone have pointers?

It took them 2 games each to beat me. Once they each beat me once I submit. lol Fox dittos are awesome.

Fox v Sheik: Uthrow utilt combos at 0 if they don't d.i. the uthrow. Then, in upwards of 20 till about 40 (not 100% accurate), you can uthrow and combo SH nair regardless of d.i. If you ever land a SH nair out of uthrow on Sheik, you can utilt/smash/grab. Pick an option than do it again.

-At mid percents, uthrow nair or bair, you FF and get to the ground first, CC their aerial if they throw one out on the way down -> shine another free combo.

-Don't waveshine usmash at 0, she can nair you before you can combo off the hit sometimes. Stick to grab and work on getting out of the uthrow fast enough to connect nair.

-Uthrow uair works past 95%

KirbyKaze and I have been playing together for years. You should watch either Unknown or me vs. him for some good ****.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Lol legit.

Thanks for the info RaynEX.

 

[EWC]

What's the best thing to do against sheik out of up-throw at low (< 10) percents when they di all the way to the side?

Also, the same question, only with falcon instead of sheik.

 

[joeplicate]

Every time I see you post I keep thinking "lol that dude beat jman"

We never got to play at Pound though.

Lozr, Kels and I sat down and rotated at one point. Where you at replicate!?

lmao i don't know where i was , plus i got lucky against jman haha



TOMACAWK

i'm watching your mm against kels

Overall, it looks like you pick the right moves, but like I said, your application is slightly off. You're really good at keeping yourself safe, but sometimes you mistime moves that ought to be guaranteed or try too hard to pick exactly the right move, it looks like. Keep in mind that you don't always have to have a perfect answer to every situation to be a good player; sometimes it's better to focus on keeping control of the match and staying simple. It's like the trademark curse of newer foxes--everybody's too caught up in trying to play perfectly, or find the perfect move in your case.

some specifics!

the bair at 2:06 when you went down there was really cool, but you also could've easily shinespiked and it would've been safer

and then the edgeguard at 2:17, you drilled from the edge and got the shine. your turnaround bair would've hit if you did it a little earlier, and the uthrow doubleshine would have worked if you didn't walk forward a little bit, changing the hitbox. It was a little too low and too far to the side, you wanna hit them nearer to the top of your shine and a tiny tiny bit towards the edge.

at 4:41, if you knew you might not have been able to follow up the nair, you should've just kept it simple and upsmashed. it's better to get the guaranteed option when you're sure it will hit than to gamble on a follow-up that you might miss. with the upsmash you might've gotten an edgeguard out of it, and even though you managed to push him to the edge and take kels' stock, there was more back and forth and it wasn't nearly as guaranteed.

OR ALTERNATELY

Rely on your reads to pick your move a tiny bit in advance! This way, you don't have to think of an entire plan on the spot (of how to edgeguard, or combo, or follow up, etc). Instead, you can think of what they're going to do, come up with your plan, then CHECK to see if you did what you think they did, and finally EXECUTE.

In the case of your upthrow > nair I was talking about earlier:
Nair is a perfectly good option. In cases like these, when you wanna be fast (and i would certainly encourage this in friendlies or w/e, because it's more playing to learn instead of playing to win), you need to give it that extra little bit of juice and focus, and CONFIRM your moves really fast (aka check to see that they'll hit, and only do them if they will!). In my opinion, this is the right way to play fast, especially from what it looks like watching your vids.

Hopefully this helped, I'm not a really great player but I have pretty good understanding of fox dittos and I think i'm alright at giving advice.

peace!

 

[Rubyiris]

Alright, my wb match vs GG7 was finally uploaded. These, and a LB match i played almost immediately after this are the two matches i'm REALLY, REALLY looking for critique on. I played very well against both players and i think it'd be a great way to evaluate what i need to work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5lPnBL6WNc&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef4tukbS51Q&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54hPTtZP3Bg&feature=sub

this was last month. i have a monthly tomorrow, so I would GREATLY appreciate ANY, AND ALL critique.

 

[`DNS`]

If falcon DIs the uthrow.. could you techchase?
Sounds horribly unreasonable but idk.

 

[Tomacawk]

thank you joe. great advice, and I agree with pretty much everything you say ever
ruby I'm going to 2 parties tonight (not to boast or anything...okay yeah I def. put this on purpose to show how much of a ****** I am), I'll critique your matches tomorrow probably.

If falcon DIs the uthrow.. could you techchase?
Sounds horribly unreasonable but idk.

yes
if they don't DI at 0% they land standing up, but if they DI at 0 they can tech
I'm pretty sure but I'm not positive
just shine after you uthrow and it doesn't matter
at mid-high %s, yeah you can techchase
lucky was doing it to silentspectre in the grand finals of the set that waffles just uploaded if you wanna see it in action

 

[wilkins]

Unknown522 posting:

Alright, my wb match vs GG7 was finally uploaded. These, and a LB match i played almost immediately after this are the two matches i'm REALLY, REALLY looking for critique on. I played very well against both players and i think it'd be a great way to evaluate what i need to work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5lPnBL6WNc&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef4tukbS51Q&feature=sub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54hPTtZP3Bg&feature=sub

this was last month. i have a monthly tomorrow, so I would GREATLY appreciate ANY, AND ALL critique.

oh man, what to work on:

1. EDGEGUARDING!!!!! (You should not miss that much vs falcon)
2. Combo out of your throw. U-tilt when they don't DI, of u-smash -> tech chase. You mess up a lot of waveshine combos.
3. Hit the guy when he taunts. Don't let him get away with this.
4. Stuff his aerials without doing FH aerials on FD. You can potentially get a combo. You also can stuff his n-air with u-smash, because he approaches you a lot with the n-air.
5. You get hit a lot out of the blue (mostly because you keep trying to run away). Use your shield, or control your DD or something.
6. No tech is good sometimes vs characters. SDI up so that you don't get jab combo'd
7. Work on tech chasing. Falcon's tech roll sucks, it's easy to react to where he goes.
8. Since this guy approaches you a lot, you should consider CC -> u-smash/shine/grab. There were a lot of chances to do it.
9. Jab sucks. Try to refrain from using it. Shine is almost always better.
10. You could attack him when he doesn't tech/misses tech. You always just DD there and then fail the follow. You could n-air where he lands, then follow him if he techs.

more later.

 

[mastermoo420]

Okay my old question coming up again because I looked at the topic, and it didn't answer one part of my questions.

So how do you continually waveshine on people with less traction? I saw a video of Zhu flying across a little over 1/4 of FD, I'd say, in a split second. Wavedash doesn't get you that far with Fox even if you can do it perfectly. Tips/tricks/solutions/answers?

Also, when does u-throw > u-air work? Listing any (besides the aforementioned 95%+ for Sheik on the last page, IIRC) characters and percentages would be helpful since I could just look up the weight classes.

 

[wilkins]

Unknown522 posting again:

you can't combo the low traction characters with waveshine, unless they CC it, or DI towards you.

You can run after the WD and JC the shine to combo marth with it.

 

[mastermoo420]

Do you mean dash-cancel? Also, does that mean that anyone with traction greater than or equal to Marth's is waveshineable?

 

[Rubyiris]

Do you mean dash-cancel? Also, does that mean that anyone with traction greater than or equal to Marth's is waveshineable?

whats a dash cancel?

 

[mastermoo420]

Crouching to cancel the dash o_O I think that's it considering JC is used for grabs, and crouch-cancel refers to when you're getting hit and you crouch to reduce KB.

 

[Silent Wolf]

thats what it is. as soon as you press down you can do something, you dont have to wait until you crouch :o