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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Lovage
Smash Hero
u can get out of anything with amazing DI
but that pretty much always works, unless they get a lucky tech on the shine (if they fall from shine, fox, falco etc)
but that pretty much always works, unless they get a lucky tech on the shine (if they fall from shine, fox, falco etc)
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Does it specifically have to be a walk for the Isai drop to work? Can you do it out of a dash?
Yeah, I really like the tech, but I haven't been able to use it effectively. Mostly cuz I'm forced to play on FD and Corneria almost exclusively. lol nooby friends...on that note, where's the place where I can find all of the banned stages? Has there been any new ones added/taken off?
A few more questions:
1. How do you play around Falco's lasers?
2. How do you prevent someone from Shining oos you?
3. Aside from Ledgehopping, what else can you do to get back on stage?
1. Assuming you mean "How do you handle Falco shooting lasers at you," You can shine to reflect them, shield, powershield, or jump over them.
2. You space your attacks so that their shine can't hit you, or you doubleshine faster than they can shiine OOS.
3. Ledgehopping can have many applications when it comes to getting back on the stage. The most commonly used method of getting back on the stage with Fox is ledgehop to illusion. However, there are many more possibilities. Some examples:
ledgehop > aerial
ledgehop > walljump > illusion
ledgedrop > shineturnaround > doublejump bair
ledgehop > waveland
ledgehop > platform edge-canceled illusion (mainly on BattleField and Pokemon Stadium)
TresChikon
Smash Lord
3. Ledgedash, Fox has the best one in the game.
From that you can do pretty much anything with your invincibility frames.
It's so broken that you should pretty much never stand near the ledge with a Fox on it.
From that you can do pretty much anything with your invincibility frames.
It's so broken that you should pretty much never stand near the ledge with a Fox on it.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
voorhese
Smash Master
oh yah.... i double laser consistently with x, get at me
Meneks
Smash Lord
people dont usually use x to double laser? I didnt even know that LOL..
but to add..
I wavedash using the control stick and L get at me
CanISmash
Smash Lord
if you suck and cheat to wave land on the ledge.
e.g. shine wave land. do you still have invincibility frames or no?
e.g. shine wave land. do you still have invincibility frames or no?
TresChikon
Smash Lord
You do, but not nearly as much. You might get hit out of a usmash or grab if you try it after waveshining on.
But if you do it w/o the shine you can throw out anything without being interrupted.
But if you do it w/o the shine you can throw out anything without being interrupted.
Meneks
Smash Lord
Yeah your sig is pretty sick..
What do you guys use? illustrater?
voorhese
Smash Master
yah, most people like tomacawk jump with control stick, and M2K claws and hits Y with his index finger
also i use L for fast characters and R for slower characters (fox = L and falco = R) get at me
Meneks
Smash Lord
Thats actually a good method for wavedashing I use y and x for different characters aswell...
voorhese
Smash Master
its like, when u use L to do it (since it not on the same hand) there is a lag in between ur jump and pressing L (compaired to jump -> R) so it does it naturally
also when ur doing Thunders/ waveshine -> grab (on fox) i noticed its easier if you are already moving before you shine (idk why though because i thought shine stopped horizontal momentum, i guess not on the ground) so i try to either run/walk/wavedash b4 the shine has anyone else noticed this also? if i run past a fox, wavedash backwards, shine->wavedash back again->dash->JC grab i can grab them off the ground... any thoughts? also i may have found something that makes peach a combo breaking machine (besides the nair)
HomeMadeWaffles
Smash Lord
i was wondering
how do approach sheik as fox??
im really bad at fighting sheik
and wanna learn how to fight sheik with a space animal
how do approach sheik as fox??
im really bad at fighting sheik
and wanna learn how to fight sheik with a space animal
Stratford
Smash Champion
Absolutely. Some of the momentum is definitely carried over after the shine, I'm not exactly sure how it works though.
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Guilty! I use the ledgehop illusion all the time. lol think I'm getting predictable with it.
Didn't even know the last one is possible. So I just need to make sure I land on the platform correctly (edge) to cancel the Illusion's lag?
Is the ledgedash basically a really fast ledgehop --> waveland? Looks awesome, but I'm not consistent at it.
At least 50% of the time, if not more, I self-destruct attempting to do it. I tend to avoid the technique altogether.
4 Aces
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2007
- Messages
- 892
Does it carry over when you jump cancel it?
yes, a ledgedash is when you ledgdrop waveland back onto the stage.
Yes, the momentum carries, this is why you can running double shine and have both hit and shinebair from the ground.
Yes, the momentum carries, this is why you can running double shine and have both hit and shinebair from the ground.
Lovage
Smash Hero
get around falcos lasers by running in and shielding, then WD out of shield after it hits u. powershield if you want.
also use platforms a lot
also use platforms a lot
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
it's something that we dont do KK.
Tomacawk
Smash Master
okay, hypothetical situation
i approach a samus (yeah it's a mistake but roll with it)
samus shield's my dair, i l cancel.
should I shine, grab, or buffer spot dodge? Samuses always ****in up b oos at this part and it's gay as hell
is it safe to shine then wd backwards?
edit-
waffles, laser sheik often. when you do approach, dair is your best bet. at %s where cc won't work anymore, you can approach with nair. if they're spot dodge happy don't fastfall your dair. also shine approach is very useful.
i've also found success in approaching with nair on a plat above them and a little behind them(works best when you plat cancel your nair) and then dropping with bair
i approach a samus (yeah it's a mistake but roll with it)
samus shield's my dair, i l cancel.
should I shine, grab, or buffer spot dodge? Samuses always ****in up b oos at this part and it's gay as hell
is it safe to shine then wd backwards?
edit-
waffles, laser sheik often. when you do approach, dair is your best bet. at %s where cc won't work anymore, you can approach with nair. if they're spot dodge happy don't fastfall your dair. also shine approach is very useful.
i've also found success in approaching with nair on a plat above them and a little behind them(works best when you plat cancel your nair) and then dropping with bair
Silent Wolf
...
just dont even risk that in the first place.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Well if you did **** up-
couldnt you shine or double shine into a full jumpwhile DIing away?
or buffer a roll or something?
couldnt you shine or double shine into a full jumpwhile DIing away?
or buffer a roll or something?
TresChikon
Smash Lord
Just shine, if shine hits, you have the advantage of a free shine grab. Or you could run away. Just don't waveshine inwards, that's just dumb.
Anything else besides shine just depends on how spot on she is with her options.
Anything else besides shine just depends on how spot on she is with her options.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
if you shine you will get upbed (or should, against good samuses)
unless you wanna bait the upb and shine jump immediate airdodge (not wavedash) and then punish the upb lmao
unless you wanna bait the upb and shine jump immediate airdodge (not wavedash) and then punish the upb lmao
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
samus cant up b OOS if fox nair -> shines and delays the nair to hit at the end of foxs SH. this way nair hits with the strongest hitbox, doing more shieldstun to samus, and the shine comes out alot quicker and you can jump away, wavedash back, whatever. i think this can also be used to stop samus from being a CC *****
stelzig
Smash Lord
Or you could just jump with x/y and always use L while holding the direction you wanna wavedash in? I sometimes get really surprised at the methods some people struggle with and their solutions. Like that some people use both L and R when wavedashing out of shield... What? >_> (the only time i've ever even considered maybe adjusting to use R is for powershielding falco's lasers because i'm right handed and can mash down that trigger quickly more easily... Never started doing that either though
)And usually they have no problems with stuff i then struggle with heh. But i must say some people get really creative instead of just learning these things... Often their new ways just sound more complicated to me
voorhese
Smash Master
the point im making is, i do hold the direction of which i wavedash, but when i play fox he has to wavedash faster than say falco, and if i use R when i play falco i cant wavedash as easy, but if i use L for some reason there is a natural lag compared to using R (so it feels the same just w/ a different hand, the different hand is the reason it makes the difference because i send the message to my thumb and index finger on my right hand at the same time, but since the R button is raised it makes it naturally timed right) so yah, it just helps w/ timingOr you could just jump with x/y and always use L while holding the direction you wanna wavedash in? I sometimes get really surprised at the methods some people struggle with and their solutions. Like that some people use both L and R when wavedashing out of shield... What? >_> (the only time i've ever even considered maybe adjusting to use R is for powershielding falco's lasers because i'm right handed and can mash down that trigger quickly more easily... Never started doing that either though
And usually they have no problems with stuff i then struggle with heh. But i must say some people get really creative instead of just learning these things... Often their new ways just sound more complicated to me
TresChikon
Smash Lord
I may be confused with Falco then. Since Falco's shinegrab has frame advantage because the shieldstun guarantees it, does Fox's shine have the same amount of stun to give him a grab?
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Don't ever plan on shieldgrabbing a Fox/Falco, that usually fails and you get ***** for it. If you're going to CC, try CCing into a grab/usmash/ or shine. The shine doesn't even have to combo into thunders, the knockdown in itself usually provides you with a a free grab so don't stress the thunders part.
Shine oos or usmash oos vs. spacies unless you've seen them ****ing up in your shield and you think you can land the grab. Don't risk it in tournament because if may cost you dearly.
General information I've touched on in the past that may help:
-Never have a preset approach, always react to what your opponent is doing. Make your moves dependant on what movements they make. Whether they're camping, attacking, running or recovering - if you filter your moves to include only the ones that will be the most useful in a given situation, you'll find that killing your opponent will be much easier. Spamming moves you think will work isn't how its done; think and react.
-When you're not physically in a battle, don't randomly shffl moves and hope they'll hit. If you miss vs. Marth/Shek for example, they will run back and pivot grab you and you take huge damage or lose your entire stock. Move around, and look for openings. If it takes too long, laser and be patient. Don't be afraid to get in there sometimes...use some offensive CC usmash, and get him for his random fairs and badly spaced tilts. (This goes for both Marth/Sheik and any other character you feel applies)
-Early nairing is generally bad because the effectiveness of its hitbox deteriorates the longer its been out. This is also the case when discussing hitstun. When you hit an opponent with an early nair, you deliver less shield stun than if you hit with a really late one.
Example: You know how alot of good players these days are really gay and will CC certain aerials and grab you? Well, if you SH and do a nair RIGHT BEFORE YOU HIT THE GROUND, you can get a shine out before Marth can grab you. Even if he CCs.
Doing early nairs or fullhopped nairs is better for approaching, because it keeps Fox encased in a hitbox, whereas late nairing leaves you vulnerable as you fall in the air, waiting for the proper time to hit A.
-When it comes to being really good at this game, its all about finding the best and most rewarding styles of play - then emulating them.
Ken, P.C. Chris, KDJ, Isai (I'm intentionally not counting M2K because his ledge-camp/gimp Marth style is really stupid and repetitive - and can be half-avoided by camping back and not going to the ledge)
The common trend we see between all the top players is that they were all aggressive. They never excessively DD/Laser/Ledge camped. Force your way into your opponents space by reading them and cornering them. Once you get a grab or move do as much damage as possible, and don't screw up. When you knock them off the stage, keep them off. Don't do this half-*** stuff where you DD around the edge and wait for them to come back on. Try your best to use what you know about the game and that character and pressure them back off.
Its all about being smart, technically sound (not missing l cancels, edge-guards, and having a decent plan when it comes to things like counter-camping/ledge-guarding/move selection/spacing etc.
It doesn't really matter. Use whatever is comfortable, they both do the same thing.
Isai dropping is when you cancel landing lag with your walking animation, and drop through while you walk. When you laser and land on a platform, or simply jump and land on one - you cannot hit down and drop through immediately. If you tilt forward as soon as you land you start walking, this cancels your landing lag. Slide the control stick down really quickly and you'll drop through. Seemless, smooth platform drops.
Shai dropping: start dding on a platform to practice. You have to shield during your run and tilt the control stick on a 45 degree angle in the direction you're facing. If you tilt forward on the stick even slightly, you'll roll. If you tilt down, you'll sidestep. Its hard because you have to hit perfectly in between both vertices. I know it sounds easy to just tilt to the diagonal, but I promise its alot harder than you might think.
-Run
-shield+tilt down/forward in one motion.
Yes. If you try to d.i. an usmash away mid-air and your opponent shine->usmashes, you won't get hit. On the ground, the running momentum from a blatant shine->usmash thwarts your d.i. and Fox slides into you and gets you almost everytime.
The Sheik match-up is fairly simple. Don't run in mindlessly. Shoot lots of lasers. Try to not always be the first to attack and bait out dash attacks and tilts for easy CCs and grabs. Sheik's aerials have barely any lag on them, and she can auto-cancel all of them except dair in a SH if she really wants to. Her tilts are also very fast, and have good walling properties. This means that if you try to run in with nair, the tip of ftilt will beat you. When you're on stages with platforms, use them to keep your approaches varied. Don't always jump in on her at the most obvious of times. Use your double jump cautiously and random wavelands or quick DDs to get her to either come up at you or whiff a move on the ground. When you get the opportunity, grab -> uthrow ->uair. At 0%, uthrow only combos into nair (with any d.i.), and utilt (with neutral d.i.). If you try anything else at that percent she will be able to nair or jump out. Start uthrow comboing a bit after 15% with uairs and you should be fine.
When you edge-guard always grab the ledge vs. Sheik. They always try to vanish sweetspot the edge then stall or w/e to make it back. If you take the edge away Sheik is forced onto the stage. From your position on the ledge, you can easily punish. Watch how close the Sheik is to the stage, because she might try to double jump and airdodge onto it to avoid getting punished. If you can react fast enough, jump over and bair her back off. This is where watching your opponent and react comes into serious play. You need to cut off all her options and force her off the stage. At lower percents, spam shine for gimps and to push her off into a ledge situation. It gets really easy to build up free damage on Sheik from edge-guarding alone.
Shoot, shoot, shoot if you don't know what to do. Once you get close to her and land a **** she's pretty much done. Just make sure you don't get grabbed.
I think we've covered the otg Fox grab. Its a strange anomaly that we can't thoroughly explain, and isn't super useful either.
As soon as you hit Samus' shield with any aerial, you are instantly unsafe. She can upB before you shine, and there isn't anything you can do about it. If her upB is faster than your shine (a 1 frame move), it means you're completely helpless if you happen to jump right into her.
IF, like microwave said, you hit with a low nair on Samus' shield...you'll be safe and shine will connect with her before she can interrupt you. The only time you should be in her shield is if you're doing a low aerial. Every other second should be spent lasering, spacing bairs and usmashing/waveshine->usmashing.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Bernie I think you should just make 3-4 generic answer posts and store them in word.
Then you can just arbitrarily quote people and give them the same advice over and over again because they ask the same questions over and over again.
Then you can just arbitrarily quote people and give them the same advice over and over again because they ask the same questions over and over again.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I do have a word document like that actually. This is probably the first time I've felt the need to go back and dig up useful posts though. shrug
Lovage
Smash Hero
i didnt read ray ray's post but here's some stuff about samus
dont try to shield pressure her lol. only do reckless nairs if you got him in a good position, but know that if u *** up you're gonna get up+b'd and probably dsmashed on the platform after. only nair or bair on their shield when its really safe. if you get a low nair shine, fadeback on the next nair cuz they will up+b you. once you get his shield low with spaced bairs and stuff, dtilt him a lot. dtilt ***** samus cuz it pokes her robot feet. just get his shield low and then run up to him and space a dtilt from far away. follow that with (turnaround with shine) bair
always recover super high and never illusion, even if you can edge cancel it. if you recover high the worst they can do is sweetspot bair, which is really really hard to do if you can trick them with your fastfall or movement. because samus is very slow she can't get in the perfect position to edge guard when you go high, so you usually just eat a weak bair or weak nair and recover back on the stage.
illusion is the WORST way to recover, super super easy for samus to punish, and don't even think about going to the ledge with it, cuz u will die every time lol.
don't do crazy edgeguards against samus, just use your ledge invincibility and try to shine or ledgehop back air. never try to dsmash their recovery because if they have such amazing spacing like hugs they don't miss the sweetspot in that dumb way, and will punish you with ledgehop fair-> dtilt. low-ftilt is the safest on-stage option to edgeguard, but space it so they can't punish right after. if you don't know how to time it just do a fulljump fastfall bair and hope they screw up the sweetspot (if they're brilliant hugs they won't)
missiles are pretty good to reflect, but only do it after running away, don't reflect it right in their face unless they shielded right after shooting their missile. if you reflect too close they'll do the dash attack missile cancel -> dsmash trick.
dont try to shield pressure her lol. only do reckless nairs if you got him in a good position, but know that if u *** up you're gonna get up+b'd and probably dsmashed on the platform after. only nair or bair on their shield when its really safe. if you get a low nair shine, fadeback on the next nair cuz they will up+b you. once you get his shield low with spaced bairs and stuff, dtilt him a lot. dtilt ***** samus cuz it pokes her robot feet. just get his shield low and then run up to him and space a dtilt from far away. follow that with (turnaround with shine) bair
always recover super high and never illusion, even if you can edge cancel it. if you recover high the worst they can do is sweetspot bair, which is really really hard to do if you can trick them with your fastfall or movement. because samus is very slow she can't get in the perfect position to edge guard when you go high, so you usually just eat a weak bair or weak nair and recover back on the stage.
illusion is the WORST way to recover, super super easy for samus to punish, and don't even think about going to the ledge with it, cuz u will die every time lol.
don't do crazy edgeguards against samus, just use your ledge invincibility and try to shine or ledgehop back air. never try to dsmash their recovery because if they have such amazing spacing like hugs they don't miss the sweetspot in that dumb way, and will punish you with ledgehop fair-> dtilt. low-ftilt is the safest on-stage option to edgeguard, but space it so they can't punish right after. if you don't know how to time it just do a fulljump fastfall bair and hope they screw up the sweetspot (if they're brilliant hugs they won't)
missiles are pretty good to reflect, but only do it after running away, don't reflect it right in their face unless they shielded right after shooting their missile. if you reflect too close they'll do the dash attack missile cancel -> dsmash trick.
Stratford
Smash Champion
I'm liking the Samus advice. I was in need of some of that.
Silent Wolf
...
idk who made it or what they used. if youre genuinely interested ask eggu :o
Meneks
Smash Lord
Im genuinely interested and i do plan to ask him..
I remember your previous sigs and they were sick and I meaned to ask you how you did them..
