Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[PCHU]

But unbelievably sexy.



Dairing recoveries?

I use them two ways, messing up sweetspots or torturing them.

EDIT:

DDing without clouds? yeah you'd have to do it at like, SWD speed, but there's really no point to that kind of speed other than to pass the time between stocks or screw around in your shine

I can get close to that, but I can't do it all the time.
Believe me or not, whichever you prefer.

I also DD'd in the shine, but that's before I found multishining.

Uhh...
I actually have a question.
Against Mewtwo:
Dair -> waveshine -> jab.
When Mewtwo gets up, how much time do I have to attack him before he can shield?
I'm going to be in a Mewtwo matchup soon, and I need to know if I can keep the cycle going or if I need to just usmash -> follow through while I have the chance.

 

[4 Aces]

I've been getting shieldgrabbed a lot. What am I doing wrong?

1. Not spacing well?
2. Throwing out aerials too early? Should I throw it out, when I'm really low to the ground?
3. Not shining fast enough?
4. Combination of all 3?

Obviously I'm being too predictable, but I always figured that an aerial --> shine will always protect me from shield-grabs. I suppose that's not the case.

 

[L__]

I've been getting shieldgrabbed a lot. What am I doing wrong?

1. Not spacing well?
2. Throwing out aerials too early? Should I throw it out, when I'm really low to the ground?
3. Not shining fast enough?
4. Combination of all 3?

Obviously I'm being too predictable, but I always figured that an aerial --> shine will always protect me from shield-grabs. I suppose that's not the case.

Do you have a video?

 

[4 Aces]

Do you have a video?

Sadly, no.

 

[L__]

There are a few things you could do that I could give advice with.

I'm not entirely sure everyone will agree with me here.

When you run up to them and N-Air past their shield, utilt, -> whatever

What I used to do is SHFFL N-air -> Shine -> Wavedash -> Pivot -> Grab

I'm not exactly the most intelligent of Smashers, but if you want anymore of my advice I'd be willing to give it.

 

[4 Aces]

There are a few things you could do that I could give advice with.

I'm not entirely sure everyone will agree with me here.

When you run up to them and N-Air past their shield, utilt, -> whatever

What I used to do is SHFFL N-air -> Shine -> Wavedash -> Pivot -> Grab
I'm not exactly the most intelligent of Smashers, but if you want anymore of my advice I'd be willing to give it.

Are you suggesting to hit the front or back of the shield? The thing is, I keep getting grabbed out of my aerial before I can shine, which leads me to suspect that either I'm too slow (not shining fast enough/ not L-canceling properly), or there is a small window of opportunity for my opponent to react.

This sometimes happens when I waveshine --> upsmash; they'll pull up the shield before I can connect with upsmash. In this case, I'm SURE that I'm slow.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

they shouldn't be able to grab you if you lcancel and shine.

if you land behind them, you no longer should be shining. just keep bairing to bait whatever you want them to do, assuming you don't want the grab. fox does have a good grab game, so if someone is really camping their shield just throw out a grab instead of your next attack. shinegrab works from the front, too.

 

[Silent Wolf]

But unbelievably sexy.

its not really all that sexy lol..
if it was i wouldnt deem it useless

 

[TresChikon]

I can get close to that, but I can't do it all the time.
Believe me or not, whichever you prefer.

I also DD'd in the shine, but that's before I found multishining.

Uhh...
I actually have a question.
Against Mewtwo:
Dair -> waveshine -> jab.
When Mewtwo gets up, how much time do I have to attack him before he can shield?
I'm going to be in a Mewtwo matchup soon, and I need to know if I can keep the cycle going or if I need to just usmash -> follow through while I have the chance.

The thing is that anyone half decent will SDI your jabs if you thunders too predictably. Just mix up aerials, tilts, and the occasional shine-illusion, so that when you do thunders he won't be expecting the jab.

Though i recommend spacing with bairs more since M2 can SDI out of drills pretty easily cuz he's so slidey.

 

[Meneks]

its not really all that sexy lol..
if it was i wouldnt deem it useless

And thats coming from the sw

 

[L__]

Are you suggesting to hit the front or back of the shield? The thing is, I keep getting grabbed out of my aerial before I can shine, which leads me to suspect that either I'm too slow (not shining fast enough/ not L-canceling properly), or there is a small window of opportunity for my opponent to react.

This sometimes happens when I waveshine --> upsmash; they'll pull up the shield before I can connect with upsmash. In this case, I'm SURE that I'm slow.

From what you're telling me, you need to become quicker with your SHFFLing and your waveshines.

edit:

I start out N-airing the front of their shield, fast fall, L cancel, Shine, Wavedash past their shield, pivot grab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dont forget, if you shine and then wavedash they can grab you.

 

[ZoSo]

Running shield drop is useful because it's the only way to drop through a platform while running... Go figure.

I don't think it's a game-breaking tactic or anything, but Forward said he finds a lot of openings for it. Personally, I think it's neat but I can only do it going to the left with my controller.

 

[TresChikon]

I keep getting grabbed out of my aerial before I can shine.

Well this happens when the opponent tilts their shield up to delay your FF. I'm not sure how to get around it though.

I think you just want to stick with low nairs so your shine can come out b4 the SG, not sure though.

 

[L__]

Well this happens when the opponent tilts their shield up to delay your FF. I'm not sure how to get around it though.

Learn to use empty SHFF to mix up your approaches.

 

[EC_Joey]

I also DD'd in the shine, but that's before I found multishining.

What the hell does "DD'd in the shine" mean?

I've been getting shieldgrabbed a lot. What am I doing wrong?

1. Not spacing well?
2. Throwing out aerials too early? Should I throw it out, when I'm really low to the ground?
3. Not shining fast enough?
4. Combination of all 3?

Obviously I'm being too predictable, but I always figured that an aerial --> shine will always protect me from shield-grabs. I suppose that's not the case.

Either you're missing the L cancel or you're not shining at the soonest possible time after the L cancel.

 

[PCHU]

DashDance.
I guess you wouldn't really call it that if you're in the shine while doing it, but then again, what else would you call it?

 

[EC_Joey]

I know what DD means, kid.

You'd call it shine turnaround, not "DD in shine".

 

[L__]

dont forget, if you shine and then wavedash they can grab you.

Fox's shield stun from the shine covers that.

 

[TresChikon]

Learn to use empty SHFF to mix up your approaches.

Will do, and PCHU, throwing out aerials predictably can get you SGed easily, so follow L's advice with mixing it up.

Also, baiting lag with empty shines is pretty good too.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox's shield stun from the shine covers that.

assume frame perfect: 4th frame jump from shine, 8th frame air dodge at the ground, 18th frame you are out of your wavedash.

shine doesn't have much stun on the shield, but i don't remember the number.

 

[L__]

Assuming you can react perfectly to that, I'd like to MM you if we ever meet.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

woah there was a huuuuuuuuuge jump there. nobody said ANYTHING about reacting to it. i simply said you can be grabbed out of it.

 

[L__]

-shrug-

People are always stating what can and can't be done.

They always tell you X won't work because of Y, so don't do it even if people can't do anything to get out of it

It's pretty annoying

The MM still stands lol

 

[DippnDots]

You don't understand, it's not about counting frames and being frame perfect, if there's a window for a grab and people know it's there, people can and will hone their reaction/precognition to using that window. It may not be a 100% punish they'll be able to pull off, but against multiple characters one grab can lead to a lot.

 

[`DNS`]

Running shield drop is useful because it's the only way to drop through a platform while running... Go figure.

I don't think it's a game-breaking tactic or anything, but Forward said he finds a lot of openings for it. Personally, I think it's neat but I can only do it going to the left with my controller.

what's that mean? you drop through a platform while in the shield?

 

[TresChikon]

RST Issue 1: Shield Toggling and Platform Shield Falling
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=100268

search function, don't be lazy

 

[`DNS`]

oh okay.

I don't see many instances where you'd want to be running on a platform though..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

L__ that MM sounds good pound4?

and i wasn't saying not do it, i was just pointing out the obvious.

 

[EC_Joey]

Assuming you can react perfectly to that, I'd like to MM you if we ever meet.

I've been grabbed plenty of times while wavedashing out of shine by ZoSo. Shine's shieldstun definitely doesn't cover the wavedash, unless you move behind them fast enough, assuming you're inside them.

Admit your earlier statement was wrong instead of throwing down an MM, lol.

 

[L__]

L__ that MM sounds good pound4?

and i wasn't saying not do it, i was just pointing out the obvious.

I can't go to Pound 4.

I've been grabbed plenty of times while wavedashing out of shine by ZoSo. Shine's shieldstun definitely doesn't cover the wavedash, unless you move behind them fast enough, assuming you're inside them.

Admit your earlier statement was wrong instead of throwing down an MM, lol.

Uhm... okay I really don't care. I've played SS, Falcomist, SFAT, and tons of other people and never been grabbed doing that. L2SPEEDUP

 

[ZoSo]

-shrug-

People are always stating what can and can't be done.

They always tell you X won't work because of Y, so don't do it even if people can't do anything to get out of it

It's pretty annoying

The MM still stands lol

Nobody's telling you you can't do anything. Nobody's even telling you it won't work or shouldn't work. The point is that you said this:

"Fox's shield stun from the shine covers that."

... which isn't necessarily true. You CAN be grabbed out of it, depending on spacing, human error, and a number of other less common factors such as shield smash DI. Sorry if it makes you angry when people share their interpretations of frame data. Doesn't give you license to act like a jackass.

I've played Mew2King, PC Chris, Cort, KoreanDJ, Jman, and pretty much every other talented player in the Northeast. I guess my opinion means more than yours now, huh?

 

[L__]

Nobody's telling you you can't do anything. Nobody's even telling you it won't work or shouldn't work. The point is that you said this:

"Fox's shield stun from the shine covers that."

... which isn't necessarily true. You CAN be grabbed out of it, depending on spacing, human error, and a number of other less common factors such as shield smash DI. Sorry if it makes you angry when people share their interpretations of frame data. Doesn't give you license to act like a jackass.

I've played Mew2King, PC Chris, Cort, KoreanDJ, Jman, and pretty much every other talented player in the Northeast. I guess my opinion means more than yours now, huh?

Uhm...okay.

I did come off as an ***. I apologize.

I never said it was impossible for me to get grabbed, I just stated I haven't been grabbed yet

 

[ZoSo]

I think saying, "shine covers that" sends a pretty strong message. No point in nitpicking, though.

I've seen your posts before and I'm pretty sure you're not actually an ***, so no apology needed. Just play nice.

 

[TresChikon]

I suppose it depends on the person you're intending on waveshining through, if it's pika or ness then maybe their crummy range wont get you, but if it's Ganon or M2 those backward hitboxes could nab you. I dunno that's my understanding.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ness has a grab hitbox on his back. most characters do actually lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

yeah lol

when it happens, I usually sit there for a sec before throwing them, thinking "wtf? that just connected?"

 

[TresChikon]

ness has a grab hitbox on his back. most characters do actually lol

So it's a gamble to waveshine behind them EVEN IF you have frame perfect timing regardless of what matchup you're in? Well besides Samus or something but yeah.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

just because it can happen, doesn't mean being behind him is a bad option. being behind someone in their shield is like the best place in the whole game. just dont stand on top of them (kinda hard when they are in shield)

 

[TresChikon]

Even if that person is Boozer or DK?