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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
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Location
Jackson, Tennessee
Now is one of the many times that I wish there were someone better than me that lived close by.
I need constant training if I ever want to improve....

So, I should approach Marth with dair and then waveshine out of it?
And from then, can I do another drillshine or should I follow it up with JC grab -> uthrow -> uair -> uair -> uair?
 

EC_Joey

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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何?
Now is one of the many times that I wish there were someone better than me that lived close by.
I need constant training if I ever want to improve....

So, I should approach Marth with dair and then waveshine out of it?
And from then, can I do another drillshine or should I follow it up with JC grab -> uthrow -> uair -> uair -> uair?
If your cousin is focused on his ground game, you should dash dance to bait a move out of him and run in for a grab -> upthrow -> upair. I highly doubt your cousin knows how to dashdance camp, so I imagine he either stands there and throws out moves or runs at you and dash attacks. Both are really easy to punish. You should focus on punishing and following up with combos instead of approaching.
Approaching a Marth is always risky.
 

halcyon.days

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
485
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
Now is one of the many times that I wish there were someone better than me that lived close by.
I need constant training if I ever want to improve....

So, I should approach Marth with dair and then waveshine out of it?
And from then, can I do another drillshine or should I follow it up with JC grab -> uthrow -> uair -> uair -> uair?
Marth can't CC dair, as you know.

If he CCs the shine, he won't slide as far and will recover sooner.

Generally the best approach is like you said, dair to waveshine. From this you have a myriad of options as your disposable. You can usmash, go for another drillshine, or JC grab uthrow uair.

Oh yeah, if your friend is smash happy, learn to wavedash out of shield 100% of the time without thinking about it.


A question about shield pressure:
For applying shield pressure, it should be something like:
late nair -> shine -> JC shffl nair asap (so the nair comes out as I'm rising)

But if the opponent shields everything, he can grab me after my second nair before I can shine again, can't he? Would it be better to delay the nair just a bit?
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,901
Location
Jackson, Tennessee
Approaching a Marth is always risky.
So I've found.
*recalls the many times his cousin got a tipper*

What would you recommend I do, since I don't fight people very often?
Most people don't approach me, or if they do it's just a dash attack that I shieldgrab.
I've never really experienced shield pressure, and I've hardly had any time to inflict the pressure since nobody I know uses their shield.
When they DO use it, they usually let go after the dair, and they get shined.

I've no idea how I would be able to simulate a fight against an actual person.
Should I just not practice against CPUs and go alone in practicing tech skill?
It seems that it's all I really can do.

If that's what you guys suggest, I won't have any need for posting here anymore (besides uploaded matches).
 

halcyon.days

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
485
Location
Edmonton, Alberta
So I've found.
*recalls the many times his cousin got a tipper*

What would you recommend I do, since I don't fight people very often?
Most people don't approach me, or if they do it's just a dash attack that I shieldgrab.
I've never really experienced shield pressure, and I've hardly had any time to inflict the pressure since nobody I know uses their shield.
When they DO use it, they usually let go after the dair, and they get shined.

I've no idea how I would be able to simulate a fight against an actual person.
Should I just not practice against CPUs and go alone in practicing tech skill?
It seems that it's all I really can do.

If that's what you guys suggest, I won't have any need for posting here anymore (besides uploaded matches).
Level 1's for tech skill.

The CPU that fights most like a human is level 8 G&W
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
1,730
Location
@ the barnyard
So I've found.
*recalls the many times his cousin got a tipper*

What would you recommend I do, since I don't fight people very often?
Most people don't approach me, or if they do it's just a dash attack that I shieldgrab.
I've never really experienced shield pressure, and I've hardly had any time to inflict the pressure since nobody I know uses their shield.
When they DO use it, they usually let go after the dair, and they get shined.

I've no idea how I would be able to simulate a fight against an actual person.
Should I just not practice against CPUs and go alone in practicing tech skill?
It seems that it's all I really can do.

If that's what you guys suggest, I won't have any need for posting here anymore (besides uploaded matches).
Keep practicing against CPU's, that will continue to yield technical improvement. Wavedashing faster, waveshining more comfortable, wavelanding smoother. It won't give you any mindgaming, but your fingers will get faster.

Also since you can fight your cousin, the best way to get the most out of it is to predict every single movement he makes.

Is he going to roll back? Foward? Dash into u smash.

Techchase into ****.

Read his recoveries from the ledge and punish accordingly. When you can slow the game down in your mind so much that you can anticipate every single move, you practically own the match. He's panicking because you're so pro, while you just calmly predict his frantic smashes.

Now as you fight new people mindgames and strategies will fluctuate, and that is the game of Smash

Anyways as for approaching a marth, especially a smash happy one, try incorporating empty shorthops. Run up to him SH and waveland backwards, you have no idea how many Marths wouldve F Smash by instinct. Then you can punish the horrible lag by running at him.

However at higher levels of play Marth's tend not to F-smash, expecially the lag-punishing foxes.

Make your movements obscure and it'll look like your in light speed, it'll seem like you'll attack, but you retreat instead, then you attack (or will you?)

As for your drill, it's a status changing attack, meaning you can't CC it or (wall)tech it in anyway, so you can drill grab --> u-air (very sexy), drillshine, and since shine comes out immediately the game registers it as a true combo so no reaction is possible. Only way is to SDI out of the drill, but that's hard. Nair however can be CCed, but marth's dont have much options if you nair and land behind him. If he CC's your shine, great! he just made reaching him much easier, continue the waveshine or grab him out of his CC.

If you get a grab, always go for the u-air, it wrecks havoc on marths, cuz they're so floaty, just be sure to watch for the counters or dair, just fake them out and nail them after.

For pressuring, keep Shffl->shine->JC shffl. Just be sure not to waveshine onto them if they shield, that's just asking for a SG. The timing, of course matters, because they can buffer a roll or spot dodge, but you'll learn it over time.

If you don't have humans to play, try watching videos, and analyze the gameplay. Like predict what one person is going to do, and a way to punish. Just imagine yourself in the spot of a player, only this time you can pause and redo your strategies.

Or watch your own videos and pick out little things when you fight your cousin/friends. Like you should've did this instead of that. Plus , since you're not focusing on the battle you can zone in on what you do is predictable, and what your opponent does is predictable and kill him for it next time you play.

This is one of the reasons why some people hold out against others in friendlies, so their true playstyle isn't learned and countered, called sandbagging.

Edit: oh and i almost forgot, one way you can simulate shielding, and therefor the timing of pressuring is to give them a super star, yay for items!
 

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
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Jackson, Tennessee
Alright, then.
Sounds good enough to me...
Just practice tech skill and watch videos, huh?
The only time I'll be back is for critique on battles, then.

Sorry if I've been a bit childish in any way (I tend to ask the same questions over and over again).
I dunno why, I just have the mind of a kid >_>
Have fun everyone.
 

EC_Joey

Smash Lord
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何?
Alright, then.
Sounds good enough to me...
Just practice tech skill and watch videos, huh?
The only time I'll be back is for critique on battles, then.

Sorry if I've been a bit childish in any way (I tend to ask the same questions over and over again).
I dunno why, I just have the mind of a kid >_>
Have fun everyone.
Start posting again for advice when you start attending tournaments and/or playing real players.
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
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Location
@ the barnyard
Alright, then.
Sounds good enough to me...
Just practice tech skill and watch videos, huh?
The only time I'll be back is for critique on battles, then.

Sorry if I've been a bit childish in any way (I tend to ask the same questions over and over again).
I dunno why, I just have the mind of a kid >_>
Have fun everyone.
Dude don't worry, it's childish if you DON"T ask questions and think you're better than everyone. When you ask questions it lets others expand on your questions and make the whole community benefit from it.

I'm nooby too, I have like so much to learn, I just want to share and learn as much as I can here.
 

PK Webb

Smash Champion
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Dec 24, 2007
Messages
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Location
the lab
when i waveshine to grab i notice i lightsheild almost every time does that happen if you try to grab too soon??
 

Miggz

Pancake Sandwiches
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Messages
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when i waveshine to grab i notice i lightsheild almost every time does that happen if you try to grab too soon??
Oh it sounds like you shield grab after a waveshine. It is possible to continue to hold in R (that's the button I use anyway) after the waveshine and press A to grab before any shield comes up. You are probably doing it too slow.

However, I think most players JC (jump cancel) grab after waveshines. So I'd recommend using that method instead.
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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@ the barnyard
when i waveshine to grab i notice i lightsheild almost every time does that happen if you try to grab too soon??
It may just be an effect freshly waveshining, perhaps your fingers are still on the L or R from wavedashing meaning z will cause you to shield instead of grab. It's something that happens to people that have just picked up wavedashing. Just the shine makes it a bit more complicated for your little fingers.

Anyways just practice waveshining, and your fingers will eventually break itself out of the habit of waveshielding
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
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Central IL
seriously pchu quit asking for critiques against bad players. go to a tournament, ask for advice, or meet somebody good and record them. no johns.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Now is one of the many times that I wish there were someone better than me that lived close by.
I need constant training if I ever want to improve....

So, I should approach Marth with dair and then waveshine out of it?
And from then, can I do another drillshine or should I follow it up with JC grab -> uthrow -> uair -> uair -> uair?
Doing a run in shine or running in with a grab is actually really good sometimes. Marth will want you to go in the air, so he can pivot grab or up-tilt you. They will also want you to do moves that he can CC -> grab / f-smash you. Jumping in with d-air is the best option, but it is the most obvious and can be countered really easily. Use it in moderation. I personally think n-air -> shine is better because it has a bit more range, so you can sometimes approach low with it without getting punished as you would with d-air. Also, if you do the n-air low enough, marth can't CC -> grab you. You can also pressure his shield better with it, since it has more stun on his shield.

Still, I think DDing for grabs is the best though.
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
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Messages
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@ the barnyard
Doing a run in shine or running in with a grab is actually really good sometimes. Marth will want you to go in the air, so he can pivot grab or up-tilt you. They will also want you to do moves that he can CC -> grab / f-smash you. Jumping in with d-air is the best option, but it is the most obvious and can be countered really easily. Use it in moderation. I personally think n-air -> shine is better because it has a bit more range, so you can sometimes approach low with it without getting punished as you would with d-air. Also, if you do the n-air low enough, marth can't CC -> grab you. You can also pressure his shield better with it, since it has more stun on his shield.

Still, I think DDing for grabs is the best though.
He's right, Drillshine is predictable, and Marth out ranges everything you have, so you need to compensate with speed and quicker thinking.

Again, you need to create an opening. All these strategies are legitimate; DD, Nair, Drill, just remember to mix it up, including how you close the distance between yourself and Marth, Foxtrot, wavelands, empty SH's. A well spaced F-Smash is the end of you.

Marth can easily control small stages with proper spacing, but only precise timing can get through his gay fair spamming.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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nobody uses dair anymore for 2 reasons. 1) it has low priority and range. 2) people are rarely in lag on the ground long enough for dair to be used. if you hit someone in the air with dair, you're not going to get a combo out of it.

in conclusion, nair is better.
 

Keblerelf

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
770
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Ogallala Aquifer
So sometimes i get pushed close to the edge and i end up not knowing how to get back to the center. Usually i just roll, but that is kinda bad. Sometimes i jump if i'm sheilding, but they can just hit me out of it.

Is there a better way from getting near the edge to the center?
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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@ the barnyard
So sometimes i get pushed close to the edge and i end up not knowing how to get back to the center. Usually i just roll, but that is kinda bad. Sometimes i jump if i'm sheilding, but they can just hit me out of it.

Is there a better way from getting near the edge to the center?
Depends on your opponent, can you give us a more specific scenario?
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
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Messages
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@ the barnyard
What are some good approaches for Fox?
He's fast so you can make his movements bizarre and obscure (i.e wavelands, foxtrots) to make your strategy unpredictable.

You can shffl and waveshine and shoot lasers is one spot like a raging lunatic to bait an attack.

DD to bait an attack.

Nair/Drill Shines

Laser Spam to make them approach

Sometimes I illusion after a waveshine to throw them off, plus it sets up for a JC grab

Or just walk up to them, you have no idea how many people get thrown off by this, but careful don't do it too much lulz.
 

hubble

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Messages
928
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Rochester, NY
So, theres barely any FOX representation at Genesis.

Where our tech skill go son?

Now, more seriously. It seems like my tech skill is incredibly inconsistant for some reason. At times I'll be 100% on and then all of a sudden I'll get frustrated and start sucking. How do I get into the mindset that "oh my tech skills going to be legit as **** 100% of the time"?

Is it litterally just hours and hours of practice (I'm learning to love tech skill practice slowly, even though it frustrates me) or is there some secret to getting into the correct state of mind? Or is it because I lack mindgames?

Honestly if my fox camped I would be like 80x better but I never stop approaching.

**** look at me johning hardcore. :-/
 

Miggz

Pancake Sandwiches
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nobody uses dair anymore for 2 reasons. 1) it has low priority and range. 2) people are rarely in lag on the ground long enough for dair to be used. if you hit someone in the air with dair, you're not going to get a combo out of it.

in conclusion, nair is better.
What in the world are you talking about?!

Was their some worldwide newsflash that every Fox player out there has stopped using dair? That's like saying every swimming pool owner stopped swimming in the ocean. Smart players use a healthy combination of the two. Depending on the character being fought, both nair and dair have their strengths and weaknesses.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
Joined
Aug 14, 2005
Messages
6,454
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Corneria, Lylat System
Now is one of the many times that I wish there were someone better than me that lived close by.
I need constant training if I ever want to improve....

So, I should approach Marth with dair and then waveshine out of it?
And from then, can I do another drillshine or should I follow it up with JC grab -> uthrow -> uair -> uair -> uair?
Approach Marth with Grab, Nair, Dair and most importantly, SHIELD. Approaching with shield is toooo good. It keeps you safe from random fairs and fsmashes, and gives you the option of WDing out to punish. Sometimes running in and rolling works well too. I suggest you try to scout your opponent during the first stock. See what they do when you run in and WD back, and what they do when you try to nair. Base your following attacks off their responses to your baits, and work from there. If you get in their head, or at least have a slight idea of what they will do next, the match-up becomes ****LOADS easier.


Things you should do against Marth after a

Shine:

-usmash. self-explanatory. Don't be afraid to waveshine usmash at low percents. You can still combo it into nair or uairs.

-Walk->dsmash (near an edge). Don't worry, this definitely combos. :)

-Uthrow (see below)


Uthrow:

-Uair (uair X ___ = ****)

-Fullhop Fastfall Bair (autocancel). This lets you reach the ground before them, and without any lag. You can usmash to beat his moves flat out, max space an utilt for more combos, or shield his move coming down and uthrow again. This is by far my favourite thing to do after uthrow (even if its more risky than the super reliable uthrow uair ****.)

-Nair. I only suggest you use this if they d.i. away from you. Even then, running in their direction and FH FF Bair hits almost the same but with less lag. Full hop FF nair is still good though. Mix it up!

-Shine. Why not? This gets really gay near an edge (You can follow them out and shine them out of their double jump.) lulz

Marth can't CC dair, as you know.

If he CCs the shine, he won't slide as far and will recover sooner.

Generally the best approach is like you said, dair to waveshine. From this you have a myriad of options as your disposable. You can usmash, go for another drillshine, or JC grab uthrow uair.

Oh yeah, if your friend is smash happy, learn to wavedash out of shield 100% of the time without thinking about it.


A question about shield pressure:
For applying shield pressure, it should be something like:
late nair -> shine -> JC shffl nair asap (so the nair comes out as I'm rising)

But if the opponent shields everything, he can grab me after my second nair before I can shine again, can't he? Would it be better to delay the nair just a bit?
In general, late nairing is better because of the hitstun it delivers onto their shield before you land. If you nair on the way up, almost all of their shield lag disappears by the time you land. Still, you can shine before they can grab. Shine is invincible frame 1, and I know that early nairing out of your shine won't make your opponent break even with you in terms of shield/frame advantage.

If you **** up somehow, then you get grabbed. Early nairing requires you to be more technically sound, basically. Its best use is against people who like to attack out of shield. If you early nair pillar, you can stuff Sheik's nair oos as she comes out of her shield, and keep pressuring her. The same thing goes for Peach. It also stuffs random moves like Marth's up oos.

Beyond that, late nairs are better for shield pressure. Even if you screw up the process and go a bit slower, the nair's shield stun covers your mistake and you will probably shine and beat their move anyways.

What in the world are you talking about?!

Was their some worldwide newsflash that every Fox player out there has stopped using dair? That's like saying every swimming pool owner stopped swimming in the ocean. Smart players use a healthy combination of the two. Depending on the character being fought, both nair and dair have their strengths and weaknesses.
I think nair is better than dair only if they don't CC spam. If they do its useless at low percents, or when they're not in the air.
 

Miggz

Pancake Sandwiches
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I think nair is better than dair only if they don't CC spam. If they do its useless at low percents, or when they're not in the air.
Indeed. I totally agree. The way Sveet worded it made my eyebrow raise. lol ^^;

Oh and it feels like I haven't seen ya around in ages! Then again, we all have busy lives.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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yea i guess in certain match ups and situations its ok, but i find that the game has progressed to a huge spacing war, and nair >>> dair in that department.
 

RaynEX

Colonel RTSD
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yea i guess in certain match ups and situations its ok, but i find that the game has progressed to a huge spacing war, and nair >>> dair in that department.
Bair >>> both, when it comes to spacing wars.

You use nair and run in with it, so the only "spacing" you accomplish is d.i.ing back and changing where it is you plan on landing. If you mean it has more range than dair, then fine - I agree. I don't feel their distinctions have much to do with overall spacing play and positioning though. Just pick one to attack.

If you want to play the spacing game, try hitting with bair in a way that keeps you safe from retaliation. Or dtilting with perfect spacing to duck hits/avoid being hit/techchase.

The most useful "spacing" would be tipping Fox's usmash. At max range, I don't even think Marth can WD oos grab him. Combination of hitstun/distance maybe? This assumption might be a montrous failure, just so you know. Its worked for me a few times, but that doesn't mean it actually works. Just an idea I guess.


Bpro: Be more specific when you're asking questions, otherwise it will be difficult for us to offer you any help.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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hey sup bpro! finally done with brawl?

vs falco stay in on him so he can't laser. watch out for shine out of shield when you're pressuring. use shine oos or usmash oos (the timing for usmash is on the 2nd pillar, right after they hit your shield before they can shine again)
 

TresChikon

Smash Lord
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@ the barnyard
Its worked for me a few times, but that doesn't mean it actually works. Just an idea I guess.
.
As long as it works some of the time on some of his grabs.

I mean 2 out of 5 Up Smashes in the face is enough to prevent me from attempting to put my grubby Marth hands on you.

I mean, so as long as we're not on FD.
 

voorhese

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 22, 2007
Messages
3,389
Location
Decatur, IN
can anyone give me advice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ1f9sJ2JhU
im the purple fox, this is a video thats about 2 months old, after 4 weeks of starting to play fox, ive improved a lot since here, but i think i could learn a lot from you guys still, here are a few things ive learned since this video:

-more upsmash
-dash dance -> grab
-not running into up-b's when they recover
-i try not to get up as much by pressing 'A'
-i use lasers while there far away, kind of to make them feel like they have to get to me and stop me fast, making them slip up on their approach
-make them come to me
-not show off tech skill after every kill
-Grabbing in general a lot more
-mindgames

i cant think of anything else at the moment, i might be getting some matches recorded this weekend at a smashfest at purdue, cunning kitsune will prolly be there to give me some tips aswell

thx everyone
 

noodles

Smash Champion
Joined
May 29, 2007
Messages
2,309
which way should i DI peaches upthrow chaingrab to escape asap, and what %? same for marth please if anyone knows. i wanna know my options.
 

halcyon.days

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 5, 2008
Messages
485
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Edmonton, Alberta
hey sup bpro! finally done with brawl?

vs falco stay in on him so he can't laser. watch out for shine out of shield when you're pressuring. use shine oos or usmash oos (the timing for usmash is on the 2nd pillar, right after they hit your shield before they can shine again)
If a Falco times his dair at the latest possible moment, I thought NOTHING could beat his shine?

which way should i DI peaches upthrow chaingrab to escape asap, and what %? same for marth please if anyone knows. i wanna know my options.
Don't know for Peach. For Marth it's slightly behind him, so he has to pivot grab.
 

GOTM

Smash Champion
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Feb 4, 2007
Messages
2,776
Location
West Chester, PA
no just dont DI completely to the left or right. slight DI hold your control stick about halfway you would if you were DI'ing completely in one direction
 

DtJ Jungle

Check out my character in #GranblueFantasy
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you dont hold the control stick all the way in one direction.


edit: ninnnjaaaaa'd
 
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