Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[RaynEX]

I'M BACK NAO.

Anyways, I just wanna know what methods you guys have for multishining and such.
If would please tell EXACTLY how you go between the jump and B, I would be very grateful.

I put in thumb in the space between the Y button and the B button and I shift the weight back and forth without lifting it. It became really easy for me to perform 2-3 shines on shields if I ever needed to this way.

btw I'm Raynex nice to meet ya.

From like 2 pages back:



Yes, you can actually do that on YS, if you waveland PERFECTLY. Perfect waveland and turn around and you will just drop off at the other side. It looks pretty ****.

Luigi is so cool but his aerial mobility is ****ty. If he were faster in the air, and just a tad bit heavier, he'd be amazing.

 

[RaynEX]

lol every1 has to have at least 1 bad match up jiggs is mine

im trying to get better tho

i'll try to beat him @ mm tho

im so sad they made a vid =( i suck

We should team @ mm if my teammate can't make it. you down?! double fox **** all dai.

Jiggs has never been that hard of a match up for me, to be honest. All I do is grab, u-air and upsmash.

lol FF I didn't think you played anymore. Did you go to CAST4?

against jiggz i go marth


wait why am i in a fox thread?

do i play fox now?

See you this weekend scrublicious. Yea you do play Fox btw.

this.

10tipper

hi tero <3

sorry for the hiatus I was spamming smash for the past three days. I'm back now though.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Luigi was actually my FIRST main. Like when I first played Melee back in the item days. Good times.

 

[PCHU]

I put in thumb in the space between the Y button and the B button and I shift the weight back and forth without lifting it. It became really easy for me to perform 2-3 shines on shields if I ever needed to this way.

btw I'm Raynex nice to meet ya.

Nice to meet you as well.
I got the controller, and tested it out.
It's actually rather difficult to go back and forth between buttons.
The buttons are too stiff to be hit easily.
The middle of my thumb hurts now from trying so many times.

I BROKE MY RECORD TODAY!
20 slow shines, 3 shines per second.
YESZ.

 

[RaynEX]

Nice to meet you as well.
I got the controller, and tested it out.
It's actually rather difficult to go back and forth between buttons.
The buttons are too stiff to be hit easily.
The middle of my thumb hurts now from trying so many times.

I BROKE MY RECORD TODAY!
20 slow shines, 3 shines per second.
YESZ.

My controller is pretty worn in. I've had it for about 2 years. Thats probably why its easier for me.

 

[Falcinho]

<3 Worn-in controllers

They obey me ^_^

New cons are like a lvl 100 pokemon or sth =(

 

[ComboTurtle]

SHEIK ADVICE PL0x

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Does anyone know if it is possible to combo into uairs from an usmash on puff? (if the puff doesn't di or di's incorrectly, off course)
whenever I try to do it they either jump away or I get dair'd/nair'd

 

[RaynEX]

Is there anything you need help with in particular in the match-up? Because I could write pages about it. I play with Kirbykaze's Sheik all the time. I just don't want to start something now because I'm doing hw and it'll turn into a huuuge essay. haha

Edge-guarding? Approaching? Comboing?

 

[RaynEX]

It shouldn't be possible. Have you tried making it work at like 20 percent or something? Anywhere below that and it wouldn't stun her enough. Anything above 20-30 would probably make her go too high. I'm 80% sure you can't do anything after an usmash. But if they don't jump out...

I'd suggest lasering after an usmash on puff anyways.

 

[ComboTurtle]

well, the thing is i dont really play fox, but in tournaments i get to the winners bracket final with marth and then lose to this sheik player he's the only player i dont feel confident in beating with marth, however just recently ive gotten a few good tips on doing so but just in case i decided to start playing fox seriously to use against sheik instead of just messing around with him like, im not terrible i know basics with him and im fairly technical with him but i'd like to know everything i can about diing his throws edge gaurding and approaching.

 

[Falcinho]

Comboing and edgeguarding works on autopilot (at least for me)

You should concentrate on not approaching mindlessly, cuz Sheik is good at countering Fox's approaches.
Sheik however, has difficulties when trying to approach Fox, cuz he's superfast and can dodge most of her stuff simply by dashing away.
If you dashdance/Laser-camp be sure she doesn't boost grab you out of your dashdance.

Additionaly be very careful how you tech when you get grabbed.
Don't forget that not teching is an option as well.
(If you can try to SDI her jab resets up as Combobreaker)

Since i play PAL i don't know how much DI affects the dthrow in NTSC =(

And if you get dsmashed at very low %ages you can at least try to bait a move by fake approaching
or in some cases you can even run up and grab before sheik can do anything, i think

 

[RaynEX]

The Sheik match-up is fairly simple. Like Falcinho said, don't run in without thinking. Sheik's aerials have barely any lag on them, and she can auto-cancel ALL of them in a SH if she really wants to. This means that if you try to run in with nair, the tip of ftilt or dsmash will beat you. When you're on stages with platforms, use them to keep your approaches varied. Don't always jump in on her at the most obvious of times. Use your double jump cautiously and random wavelands or quick DDs to get her to either come up at you or whiff a move on the ground. When you get the opportunity, grab -> uthrow ->uair. At 0%, uthrow doesn't deal enough hitstun for combos so she can nair out if you try to combo afterwards. Start uthrow comboing a bit after 10%.

When you edge-guard always grab the ledge vs. Sheik. They always try to vanish sweetspot the edge then stall or w/e to make it back. If you take the edge away Sheik is forced onto the stage. From your position on the ledge, you can ledge-hop dair->shine->grab and punish, or dair->shine->usmash to punish/kill. Watch how close the Sheik is to the stage, because she might try to double jump and airdodge onto it to avoid getting punished. If you can react fast enough, jump over and bair her back off. This is where watching your opponent and react comes into serious play. You need to cut off all her options and force her off the stage. At lower percents, spam shine for gimps and to push her off into a ledge situation. It gets really easy to build up free damage on Sheik from edge-guarding alone.

 

[soap]

The Sheik match-up is fairly simple. Like Falcinho said, don't run in without thinking. Sheik's aerials have barely any lag on them, and she can auto-cancel ALL of them in a SH if she really wants to. This means that if you try to run in with nair, the tip of ftilt or dsmash will beat you. When you're on stages with platforms, use them to keep your approaches varied. Don't always jump in on her at the most obvious of times. Use your double jump cautiously and random wavelands or quick DDs to get her to either come up at you or whiff a move on the ground. When you get the opportunity, grab -> uthrow ->uair. At 0%, uthrow doesn't deal enough hitstun for combos so she can nair out if you try to combo afterwards. Start uthrow comboing a bit after 10%.

When you edge-guard always grab the ledge vs. Sheik. They always try to vanish sweetspot the edge then stall or w/e to make it back. If you take the edge away Sheik is forced onto the stage. From your position on the ledge, you can ledge-hop dair->shine->grab and punish, or dair->shine->usmash to punish/kill. Watch how close the Sheik is to the stage, because she might try to double jump and airdodge onto it to avoid getting punished. If you can react fast enough, jump over and bair her back off. This is where watching your opponent and react comes into serious play. You need to cut off all her options and force her off the stage. At lower percents, spam shine for gimps and to push her off into a ledge situation. It gets really easy to build up free damage on Sheik from edge-guarding alone.

U basically said play cautiously, but with some specifics

which is how i feel when playing both sides of the matchup

 

[SpaceFalcon]

The best way to beating shiek is, to start a aerial and kill it with an u-smash. Even if they are at 0% and it's kongo jungle.

 

[soap]

The best way to beating shiek is, to start a aerial and kill it with an u-smash. Even if they are at 0% and it's kongo jungle.

what's the button input for that combo?

 

[RaynEX]

Y, X X X, B, start, L, smack yourself on the forehead, Metaknight, tornado, A, B A B A,

(pick sheik)

down b, chaingrab, usmash.

 

[FastFox]

To be honest, I think everyone looks waaaay too deep into matchups.

I'm oldschool. I beat Sheiks by running away, grabbing, up-throwing and up-airing, with the occasional up-smash. I just don't see the point of getting so deep into the metagame and the supposed actions of one's opponent that you're playing this huge game of guessing what your opponent is going to next and then premeditate your next moves to suite his actions. Sure, thinking ahead is great, but I just can't seem to get a grasp on how people can actually play like this. If someone asks me, "How can I beat a Captain Falcon", I'm going to say, "shinespike", and "don't get combo'd". Not "WELL YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THE PHYSICS BEHIND CAPTAIN FALCON'S MOVES BECAUSE IF YOU DO THIS THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET AROUND HIS ATTACK AND THEN AFTER YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK OF A WAY TO DODGE HIS KNEE BECAUSE IT COMES OUT IN 0000002.22222 FRAMES". If you ask me how to beat a Marth I'm going to say, "Don't get grabbed, DI the upthrows properly, don't play ledge games, up-throw -> up-air".

I'm not saying that's what you're doing, here, Raynex, but what I think I'm trying to say is that every bit of advice that's given in this thread is so in depth and detailed that sometimes I think it completely lacks any fundamentals.

This is just my opinion.

 

[RaynEX]

The game is different now. People are getting alot better; alot gayer. Simply telling someone to "d.i. an uthrow", or "uthrow-uair" - doesn't cut it anymore.

What if they ledge-camp you? What if they refuse to approach or combo you to death out of a single hit? What if they smash d.i. every single one of your uairs? What if when you approach they crouch-cancel your move and grab you? Do you just tell them to spam shine and hope it works out in the end?

The fact of the matter is, if you want to be really good at this game (and I mean REALLY good), you have to use your brain. I love the old-school. I love Ken, I love PC. I'm all for running in and using your instincts and thinking on the spot and keeping it simple. But then I face really, really good players. They know when you will double jump, how you will recover, how you will approach, when you will run, when you will block, how to avoid getting hit, how to combo you to death using only 2->3 hits, where you will tech (almost every single time), etc etc etc

I do not believe that its all become a huge guessing game. I also do not believe that running through scenarios in your head pertaining to your opponent and his patterns is smart. You have to be actively aware of what is going on. No, beating Falcon does not require us to consider the physics behind his moves, or to confer upon why we have to find ways around his knee. But it IS helpful when we understand more about his moves and what he can do. That, in my opinion, is the easiest way to learn to how beat him, or any other match-up you're having problems with.

This game is getting more complicated, simply because that is the nature of things. As time passes people are bound to get better, match-ups and situations are bound to get change and thus bound to get more difficult. These days, everyone + their mom understands the fundamentals. The most common problem is the plateau effect that spamming tech skill, and not thinking generates. Not being specific wouldn't move this game forward. It wouldn't move peoples' minds forward. By giving copious amounts of useful, detailed information, we can help people combat the problems they have to face that weren't around back when you and I started playing.

Even frame data comes in handy. When you're getting shield pillared and you want to escape, or you're having problems shield grabbing Sheik, Falco or Fox. I can say that Sheik's moves are almost lagless, her jab, dsmash, ftilt, dtilt and utilt are all faster than your shieldgrab. So she can hit your shield with say, nair, fair or bair - then tilt before you grab her. So we'd give frame information to show how much of a shield advantage Sheik has, to warn you not to grab. Then we'd say to treat Sheik's tilts like Fox/Falco's shine and wait for them to come out, THEN grab.

Discussing frame data = learning more about the intricate thread with which smash itself is weaved. It is obviously more beneficial to know more about this game. Even if it is random bits of extremely concentrated information.

As your smash knowledge increases: wouldn't it be logical to assume that your play-style and thought process while playing smash would develop as well? When you know more, you can do more.

tl;dr: The game of smash has expanded in terms of what we need to know. But now, focusing on certain strands of this new information is key. Crouch-cancelling: yes we know it helps. But how does it help and why? When should I use it? When shouldn't I?

Thats why I'm still here posting. New problems need new answers.

 

[FastFox]

I do agree with the point you made about the game becoming more complex. I went on haitus from the smash community for a measly six months, and I come back and there are people I've never heard of playing in large-scale tournaments.

I'll post later. I've got to get back to work.

 

[Tyson651]

The game is different now. People are getting alot better; alot gayer. Simply telling someone to "d.i. an uthrow", or "uthrow-uair" - doesn't cut it anymore.

What if they ledge-camp you? What if they refuse to approach or combo you to death out of a single hit? What if they smash d.i. every single one of your uairs? What if when you approach they crouch-cancel your move and grab you? Do you just tell them to spam shine and hope it works out in the end?

The fact of the matter is, if you want to be really good at this game (and I mean REALLY good), you have to use your brain. I love the oldschool. I love Ken, I love PC. I'm all for running in and using your instincts and thinking on the spot and keeping it simple. But then I face really, really good players. They know when you will double jump, how you will recover, how you will approach, when you will run, when you will block, how to avoid getting hit, how to combo you to death using only 2->3 hits, where you will tech (almost every single time), etc etc etc

I do not believe that its all become a huge guessing game. I also do not believe that running through scenarios in your head pertaining to your opponent and his patterns is smart. You have to be actively aware of what is going on. No, beating Falcon does not require us to consider the physics behind his moves, or to confer upon why we have to find ways around his knee. But it IS helpful when we understand more about his moves and what he can do. That, in my opinion, is the easiest way to learn to beat him, or any other match-up you're having problems with.

Things are getting more complicated, simply because that is the nature of things. As time passes people are bound to get better, match-ups and situations are bound to get change and thus bound to get more difficult. These days everyone + their mom understands the fundamentals. The most common problem is the plateau effect that spamming tech skill, and not thinking generates. Not being specific wouldn't move this game forward. It wouldn't move peoples' minds forward. By giving copious amounts of useful, detailed information, we can help people combat the problems they have to face that weren't around back when you and I started playing.

Even frame data comes in handy. When you're getting shield pillared and you want to escape, or you're having problems shield grabbing Sheik, Falco or Fox. I can say that Sheik's moves are almost lagless, her jab, dsmash, ftilt, dtilt and utilt are all faster than your shieldgrab. So she can hit your shield with say, nair, fair or bair - then tilt before you grab her. So we'd give frame information to show how much of a shield advantage Sheik has, to warn you not to grab. Then we'd say to treat Sheik's tilts like Fox/Falco's shine and wait for them to come out THEN grab.

Discussing frame data = learning more about the intricate thread with which smash itself is weaved. It is more beneficial simply to know more about this game. Even if it is random bits of extremely concentrated information.

As you smash knowledge increases: wouldn't it be logical to assume that your play-style and mind processes while playing smash would develop as well? When you know more, you can do more.

tl;dr: The game of smash has expanded in terms of what we need to know. But now, focusing on certain strands of this new information is key. Crouch-cancelling: yes we know it helps. But how does it help and why? When should I use it? When shouldn't I?

Thats why I'm still here posting. New problems need new answers.

that sheik comment about treating their tilt/jab/dsmash as a shine is so true.

thanks for the advice raynex.

i really agree with what u're saying, when i play with someone like falsefalco, i really need to think, otherwise he can get everything what im doing if i play mindlessly.

if anything, i try to think more than go all tech, but recently im bringing up my tech and think at the same time and everything is going a lot better.

 

[SpaceFalcon]

There's nothing worse then being a technical player and playing another technical player who plays simple and ***** your face.

I guess it's finding a balance between playing technical, and just flat out risky. Once I learn to stop crossing that line so much, I think I can greatly improve... but that doesn't mean I'm saying all you should do is wait and grab, or wait and u-smash, SW is a great example, he can play the way he does because he has a very minimal risk factor. (Well still a lot but far less then most)

But then the word unorthodox comes to mind and you really start to question your choices you make with fox.

 

[Tyson651]

and the funny thing is,

sometimes when u vs someone and they're technical, the only way u can beat them is go all out even more technical than that person haha.

 

[Dark Hart]

Can I get a few tips from you guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHowtEjkzIw&feature=channel_page (First two matches)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiNr9BJ3x-0&feature=channel_page (Last two matches)

They're Fox dittos.

I kind kill myself way to much. That'll stop once I get more time to play (yay out of practice johns...)

 

[FastFox]

Sometimes.

I'm a lot more technical than all the Edmonton players, but I pay for it by sometimes screwing up what I intended to achieve on an intellectual level. For instance, if I go to turn-around waveshine to b-air, what I don't really think about at the moment is that they're probably going to try and grab me out of the waveshine, which will happen almost exactly the same time as I'm trying to space the b-air. When playing against characters like Marth, spacing needs to be perfect, or you get grabbed.

When I played SW at CAST4, our Fox vs. Fox matches were all down to one stock each. I wasn't trying to out-tech him, not at all, my technical skill comes naturally. It's just the way I play, same with Otto. What I was trying to do was catch him by having the upper-hand at an intellectual level. Unfortunately when you've got two extremely technical players fighting each other, there isn't much room for premeditation. You either attack first, or get combo'd from zero and die or get shine spiked. I did, however, rely on technical skill way too much in our Fox vs. Falco matches. Falco is one of my bad matchups, so it was even harder for me. Especially since I'm trying to play like a lvl. 9 computer on steroids meanwhile being hit in the face with lasers.

So in conclusion, out-teching someone technical isn't always the best solution, especially if you are not as technical as your opponent. You've got a much bigger chance of screwing up if you're trying hard to keep up with them/beat them, and every player should be able to take advantage of a screw up.

 

[Miggz]

All I do is utilize aerial to waveshines to grab/upsmash. I mean sure i do short hop double lasers to shines when I take a stock or do fire fox stalls on the edge. That's all I use and I consider myself pretty solid. ^^

 

[FastFox]

You're speaking in terms of technical skill.

Technical skill alone will not and can not make you a solid player. There's nothing wrong with shffl'd aerials to shines to whatever's, as long as their effective.

In tournaments I tend to keep the showing off to a minimal, because there's always that chance that one of your shines could accidentally turn into an illusion off the edge, and you do not want to be behind a stock because of an SD.

 

[FastFox]

Be more offensive in your approaches. You made good use of u-throw -> u-smash, as well as shine spikes. In tournament play that's really key, as they're easy kills.

I noticed that you made a lot of mistakes. I'm willing to say that might have been because you're out of practice, but try to keep your mistakes to a minimum. They can make or break a Fox ditto.

Use more u-tilt. It's a great move, especially for edge-guarding, or out of a drill kick.

 

[Miggz]

You're speaking in terms of technical skill.

Technical skill alone will not and can not make you a solid player. There's nothing wrong with shffl'd aerials to shines to whatever's, as long as their effective.

In tournaments I tend to keep the showing off to a minimal, because there's always that chance that one of your shines could accidentally turn into an illusion off the edge, and you do not want to be behind a stock because of an SD.

Indeed, for a player needs to be able to predict/react to their opponent's mistakes correctly. A fact that I actually left out from my previous post. My bad. lol I can imagine what the pressure of a tournament must be like. Do you go to weeklies within your home area or something on those lines on a regular?

 

[X- Sylar -X]

I would agree with most of that except for the shine spike part....

I thought your edgguarding was very weak and not effective. It seemed like everytime you knocked him off you would drop off to shinespike. Good if you can hit it.... but dont rely on it, especially in situations where you know your not gunna hit it.

Stay at the ledge and use your reaction time to punish whatever he does, (usually downsmash)

Im not saying your shines werent nice, if your fast enough and your opponent is in the right position than def use it, your def good enough. but dont rely on it as an edgeguard you'll only cost yourself stocks.

 

[hungrybox]

so...

when can i play jman/raynex?

 

[X- Sylar -X]

whenever your a$$ is ready for sex......

 

[(*Jman*)]

so...

when can i play jman/raynex?

come to tri state and play me XD

 

[RaynEX]

Can I get a few tips from you guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHowtEjkzIw&feature=channel_page (First two matches)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiNr9BJ3x-0&feature=channel_page (Last two matches)

They're Fox dittos.

I kind kill myself way to much. That'll stop once I get more time to play (yay out of practice johns...)

Big Canada tourny this weekend so I'm practicing up. I'll do this sometime after doubles at the tourny or after the weekend. sorry

so...

when can i play jman/raynex?

**** tristate come to canada son.

 

[FastFox]

There aren't many tournaments around our area on a regular basis, so we stick to get-togethers and the yearly local tournament held by FalseFalco. We occasionally travel. This year I'm hoping to attend as many tournaments as I can, including Flatzone if possible. I don't hold tournaments in very high esteem. It's more of a place for me to get together with friends. Playing is just a plus.

 

[FastFox]

Canada's where it's at.

We don't have stupid accents! And legal age is 19!

(18 for us in Alberta)

 

[Alukard]

Big Canada tourny this weekend so I'm practicing up. I'll do this sometime after doubles at the tourny or after the weekend. sorry



**** tristate come to canada son.

are u going to my tournament son ... u and canada better be lol

if u already confirmed in my thread i'm sry i'm updating as we speak ... and i'm at work lmfaooo i have 1034985734 pages to read and edit as i do so -____- lol

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yes, you all must go to alukards.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can I get a few tips from you guys?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHowtEjkzIw&feature=channel_page (First two matches)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiNr9BJ3x-0&feature=channel_page (Last two matches)

They're Fox dittos.

I kind kill myself way to much. That'll stop once I get more time to play (yay out of practice johns...)

Mindlessly timing ledgehop Bair or some variation of Bair > Shine spike usually.

Be more flexible edgeguarding them.

 

[RaynEX]

are u going to my tournament son ... u and canada better be lol

if u already confirmed in my thread i'm sry i'm updating as we speak ... and i'm at work lmfaooo i have 1034985734 pages to read and edit as i do so -____- lol

Yea I confirmed for your tourny already.