I use the anti-falco against samuses a lot. It works like a charm.
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Full jump anything shine. With the exception of maybe dair. If you're fast enough, every shine should be able to sneak in before a d-tilt, and if you think the samus is still going to attack from a cc, pillar.
Binx
Smash Master
vs Samus I just bair, pretty much all, bair shine, bair bair, bair bair bair bair bair. If you jump intelligently and have a percentage lead this seems like the way to go for me. VS Samus what do you guys do out of grabs? Samus' nair is too quick for me. Is uthrow laser the best option?
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Little question:
If you waveshine a character who slides a small distance, let's say Falcon, you have three possibilities (tell me if I forgot something):
1. small/normal wd out of shine dash jc grab
2. large wd out of shine grab
3. small/normal wd out of shine walk grab
So if you do 1. you can dash to far and miss them or you can mess up the jc grab
if you do 2. you could mess up the wd and dont get near enough to grab them
and I don't see any disadvantages for 3
(I know that everything mentioned is neglectable and can be practised)
So is there any advantage for (taking the "risk" and) using 1 or 2 rather than 3?
If you waveshine a character who slides a small distance, let's say Falcon, you have three possibilities (tell me if I forgot something):
1. small/normal wd out of shine dash jc grab
2. large wd out of shine grab
3. small/normal wd out of shine walk grab
So if you do 1. you can dash to far and miss them or you can mess up the jc grab
if you do 2. you could mess up the wd and dont get near enough to grab them
and I don't see any disadvantages for 3
(I know that everything mentioned is neglectable and can be practised)
So is there any advantage for (taking the "risk" and) using 1 or 2 rather than 3?
Binx
Smash Master
I usually do 2, if you don't go far enough you should be able to tell pretty quickly and switch to 3. Vs characters that go a longer distance you need a quick long wavedash and a dash grab.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I came back to the boards and i'm like time to check the jman/raynex thread. hahaha FastFox did you merge it with this one or something?
if so, good idea. if not, wtf?
if so, good idea. if not, wtf?
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
yeah he did
http://www.smashboards.com/announcement.php?f=68&a=127
also raynex please tell me your opinion on this: (:
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Unfortunetly, there isn't enough hitstun on a weak FH nair to avoid getting CCed and punished. If you fullhop anything and she CC Dtilt/dsmashes, it will come out before your shine. No sneaking around that I'm afraid.
1. Uthrow, wait for the double jump, then follow her on the ground and try to get her with uair as she bomb stalls. If she falls and nairs and doesn't DJ, intercept with uair. Alternatively, you can bthrow and stand there. Sometimes they try to fall in on you and you can just stand there and trade with usmash. *shrug*
The only advantages I can see option 2 giving you:
Motor Skill: is a learned series of movements that combine to produce a smooth, efficient action.
If you learn to do a long WD, it will become easier to do literally anything you want to do after the shine. If you want to utilt, dtilt, usmash, jab, turnaround utilt, shine again...anything is open for viability now that your WD naturally goes super far. So if you make it a habit to perform long WDs, you will have more opportunities to be creative with your combos because of the increased chance that you will be really, really close to your opponent after the shine.
edit: However:
Option 1 is riskiest of the three. Dashing and doing JC grabs or JC usmashes is somewhat difficult, and even the best Foxes screw it up sometimes. Because of its potential failure (whether because of some personal or technical difficulties), I'd say its your most questionable option.
Option 3 is perfectly fine. But if you had to choose between performing a half-*** WD to grab and a full length one, it would be more beneficial for you to try and perform the harder of the two. It is one of those minor things in this game that will pay off in the long run.
tl;dr - Option 3 is the most reliable, because of how tiny your chances of messing it up are. Option 2 is preferred, because if mastered - provides you with the best options afterwards. Option 1 is the most unreliable, because of the relatively large chance of either you or your controller not cooperating in an attempt to perform the manuever.
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
Well, you did say "a small distance," so reaching Falcon shouldn't be a problem. Plus, I really don't think you have much time to walk before Falcon attacks. I would definitely prefer to do the grab straight out of the waveshine, and save the dashing for characters who slide farther. Marth needs a just about perfect wavedash to get to him as far as I can tell.
EDIT: What he said ^^
EDIT: What he said ^^
Binx
Smash Master
Thanks Rayn.
Yeah I have chased Samus' jumps like that after uthrows but I don't play her that often so sometimes I just don't think of simple things that are effective haha.
I really have to work on my Fox match ups.
Yeah I have chased Samus' jumps like that after uthrows but I don't play her that often so sometimes I just don't think of simple things that are effective haha.
I really have to work on my Fox match ups.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Thank you <3
@Da Shuffla: There is nothing wrong with walking after the wd, you can do that perfectly fine and grab before the falcon can do anything.
I never really plan which way I'm going to throw a Samus. Sometimes I back-throw then double-jump a bair or something, and other times if I'm feeling like a pretty crazy dude I'll down-throw and tech-chase with an up-smash.
Whatever works, I suppose.
Whatever works, I suppose.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Or you can fthrow and run in and try to grab again. Or Fthrow, jump over them and bair. Fthrow off of edge -> shield, shine oos when they finish their upb (if they try to hit you with it early)? I wonder if that even works.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
*whistles*
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
oh my bad. lol i'll get on that.
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
still waiting for something
Edit: I'm a little bit more technical now and I'm still training ^^'
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Thanks, bro.
I'm going to have some team vids of my Fox in a recent tournament soon. They'll be Winners & Grand Finals. btw me and Dr. Peepee won teams there =P
me first!still waiting for something
Edit: I'm a little bit more technical now and I'm still training ^^'
me first!
=P
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
I'm waiting since january =P
Binx
Smash Master
@ Tero - More short hops, more shine combos, connecting with a shine on the ground can lead to some great combos, waveshine > Upsmash/Grab is too good vs Falcon. This isn't one of my better match ups but you can crouch cancel forward Bs into grabs at low percents and can shield and sh a bair or nair depending on which direction you are facing.
You are very impatient off the edge. Also when he is invincible just keep your distance, you don't need to provoke him to fall, it won't lessen the time he is is invincible, it just gets you close to him so he can pressure more easily. Its a bad habit and one you should try to break ASAP.
I really like the way Cactuar approaches that match up, see what you can learn from watching him, your Nair has a lot of power in this match up. Your main issue seems to be patience, improving that will also improve the timing of your approaches which will help to improve your spacing and edgeguarding. I remember thinking you didn't react properly in tech chases but I'd have to watch the video again to see why I thought that. I'll add more later.
You are very impatient off the edge. Also when he is invincible just keep your distance, you don't need to provoke him to fall, it won't lessen the time he is is invincible, it just gets you close to him so he can pressure more easily. Its a bad habit and one you should try to break ASAP.
I really like the way Cactuar approaches that match up, see what you can learn from watching him, your Nair has a lot of power in this match up. Your main issue seems to be patience, improving that will also improve the timing of your approaches which will help to improve your spacing and edgeguarding. I remember thinking you didn't react properly in tech chases but I'd have to watch the video again to see why I thought that. I'll add more later.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I've been super caught up with homework. Canada tournament last weekend, Mass Madness 14 this weekend, The Revival of Smash the weekend after. no timeeeee for life.
That being said, .Tero can you please post the link to your vids again so i can look at them the same time I look at Dark Hart's?
That being said, .Tero can you please post the link to your vids again so i can look at them the same time I look at Dark Hart's?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
RaynEX how do I fight Sheik?
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Cia
das kwl
wtf happened to Jman/ RaynEX thread??
i never posted in a silent wolf thread, so this should not be on my subscriptions list ..
i never posted in a silent wolf thread, so this should not be on my subscriptions list ..
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
It got merged, which is kind of silly IMO but FastFox does what he wants to so w/e I guess.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Stop complaining you guys. The merging was legit.
We had two seperate threads going off on the same topic. If you hadn't noticed both threads were primarily character match-up help as well as some situational discussion. I merged them because we don't need two exact same threads lingering around.
We had two seperate threads going off on the same topic. If you hadn't noticed both threads were primarily character match-up help as well as some situational discussion. I merged them because we don't need two exact same threads lingering around.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Oh wow. That was kind of unpredictable. Didn't see this merging coming.
i mean it makes sense...why have two of these threads?
up and slightly away....that way they have to pivot grab...calling raynex for percentages.
Grmo
Smash Champion
He's not gonna be online for a few days (he's going to some big tournament which I forget).
Anyway, what percentages? A good Marth will chaingrab you perfectly, so you won't really be able to escape it unless they screw up. Pivot grabbing is hard for some Marths, and it gets them to screw up more often. You have to specify the away though. I would suggest just tilting the control stick slightly towards whatever direction is behind the marth, because that's when they'll have to pivot. If they're perfect at it, just keep mixing up DI. You can shine them out of it with no DI at 23% and then again between 26-28%. After that you can do it in to the 30s, but most Marths know this well and will avoid these percentages. As soon as you get to 31% or so, expect to be utilted. From there on it's just about combo DI. You're always in range of tippers from a good Marth so be careful and try to DI so you come in from right above him (that's where most marths miss the tipper).
As for percentages, from 0 to 20% or so (I'll have to double check that later because I'm just guessing) DI slightly behind them so they have to pivot grab. Above that, try to DI as far behind them as possible (it's what gives you the most distance) and see if you can escape. If they get you again, try it again, then try making them pivot grab. If they land every grab, it means they're reacting and are technically perfect at it. If they screw up, then they're probably somewhat reacting but are basing their movements on predictions as well, which is MUCH better for you because it means screwing with them might let you escape. Expect the chainthrows to stop after 30% though, because past that they can juggle you with other moves for much more damage.
I could be slightly off about those percentages, but that's basically it.
Anyway, what percentages? A good Marth will chaingrab you perfectly, so you won't really be able to escape it unless they screw up. Pivot grabbing is hard for some Marths, and it gets them to screw up more often. You have to specify the away though. I would suggest just tilting the control stick slightly towards whatever direction is behind the marth, because that's when they'll have to pivot. If they're perfect at it, just keep mixing up DI. You can shine them out of it with no DI at 23% and then again between 26-28%. After that you can do it in to the 30s, but most Marths know this well and will avoid these percentages. As soon as you get to 31% or so, expect to be utilted. From there on it's just about combo DI. You're always in range of tippers from a good Marth so be careful and try to DI so you come in from right above him (that's where most marths miss the tipper).
As for percentages, from 0 to 20% or so (I'll have to double check that later because I'm just guessing) DI slightly behind them so they have to pivot grab. Above that, try to DI as far behind them as possible (it's what gives you the most distance) and see if you can escape. If they get you again, try it again, then try making them pivot grab. If they land every grab, it means they're reacting and are technically perfect at it. If they screw up, then they're probably somewhat reacting but are basing their movements on predictions as well, which is MUCH better for you because it means screwing with them might let you escape. Expect the chainthrows to stop after 30% though, because past that they can juggle you with other moves for much more damage.
I could be slightly off about those percentages, but that's basically it.
Witchking_of_Angmar
Smash Lord
Basically: don't DI or slight DI behind, followed by really good DI (SDI if possible) on the tilts/aerials. If he's good at the CG. If he's bad you can try to make him mess up by DI'ing differently or randomly, depending on how he reacts to your DI.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Does drill to up smash work? I've seen Sensei's Fox do it in tourny against a Falco at higher percents, but whenever I try to do it they shield it before the up smash comes out or they CC shine me.
halcyon.days
Smash Journeyman
If they keep shielding just do drill -> grab -> uthrow -> uair.
grmo i believe those percentages are correct i just didnt want to say anythin with out bein sure
SpaceFalcon
Smash Lord
If they even DI up very slightly from a drill or diagnally then you can hit it, this is because the opponent leaves the ground and you can't shield while doing that.
It also depends on which hit of the drill you hit because (not sure) but I think priority changes through each drill. Then that depends on the current %... so might as well drill shine or drill grab.
It also depends on which hit of the drill you hit because (not sure) but I think priority changes through each drill. Then that depends on the current %... so might as well drill shine or drill grab.