Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Zone]

I just want to confirm what is the best aerial option against enemies defense.

(Avoid sending in a hit, when they send out a hit box) Like marth's sword for example.

If I expect a crouch cancel I should go for down-air?
If they are shielding use N-air for shield stun?
Up-air on a diminishing shield to shield poke their head?
Of course if I'm close i'll l-cancel into a shine, and if I expect them to keep shielding i'll jc grab out of shine. If they are slightly out of reach i'll l-cancel into jab or f-tilt instead.

If I could get an elaborate look on this that would help me tremendously. Sorry in advanced if I missed this being said already. As in my options once i finally get in and they have a defense option.

 

[I.B]

I just want to confirm what is the best aerial option against enemies defense.

(Avoid sending in a hit, when they send out a hit box) Like marth's sword for example.

If I expect a crouch cancel I should go for down-air?
If they are shielding use N-air for shield stun?
Up-air on a diminishing shield to shield poke their head?
Of course if I'm close i'll l-cancel into a shine, and if I expect them to keep shielding i'll jc grab out of shine. If they are slightly out of reach i'll l-cancel into jab or f-tilt instead.

Yes, go for down-air. Although I hear that you can time a nair shine to avoid CC punishment.
Yes, aiming your nair below the middle of their shield will give you more room to escape punishment.
I guess you could do that...a properly timed nair or dair would probably shield stab as well though...
If they are slightly out of reach, wavedash out of shine and start the ****.

 

[Grmo]

Yes, go for down-air. Although I hear that you can time a nair shine to avoid CC punishment.
Yes, aiming your nair below the middle of their shield will give you more room to escape punishment.
I guess you could do that...a properly timed nair or dair would probably shield stab as well though...
If they are slightly out of reach, wavedash out of shine and start the ****.

That never works against Mike's Marth. Let me translate for everyone else: against the ones who cc grab everything. I'm probably doing something wrong thought. Any ideas?

 

[thumbswayup]

I was perusing through the current Melee tier list thread and stumbled upon this

lol was jona trying to say that SS > Darkrain?

man...

When the Foxes SS plays against get raptor boost->usmash->uair->GRAB->DROPZONE...........you know someone ****ed up.

Its easy to see that SS is alot better than the people he plays against.

But when the people he plays against d.i. into every combo, fail most edge-guards, almost never combo or punish accordingly and have bad shieldwork/get hit by everything:

****, that'd make my sister look ****in' dope too.

Darkrain experience against alot of good players. He also beats alot of good players. I'm not saying SS is bad, but if we simply use common sense. I think we'll all come to the same conclusion.

My DI is terrible, I only know how to DI upsmashes and knees and things like that. How does one DI to avoid the raptor boost->usmash->uair->grab->dropzone?

 

[Grmo]

pkm's guide to amazing DI was like this:

"At high percents, HOLD ****ING UP ON BOTH CONTROL STICKS AND SPAM THEM.

At low percents, HOLD ****ING DOWN.

When being comboed, HOLD ****ING AWAY."

It takes some practice but that's basically it rofl. seriously, holding away after a uair will get you so far away from them that you'll be amazed.

 

[thumbswayup]

Sounds simple enough lol. Thanks man I'll start doing that.

 

[Hpnotiq]

hey i was askin myself if the shine to bair pays out, cuz i saw it in a video and i started practicing, i've done it a few times.. but i think u can throw a u-air instead of that...

 

[Cia]

LOL Jman and RaynEX haven't posted since here the merge. i wonder if they even know.

::unsubscribes::

 

[Zone]

Yes, go for down-air. Although I hear that you can time a nair shine to avoid CC punishment.
Yes, aiming your nair below the middle of their shield will give you more room to escape punishment.
I guess you could do that...a properly timed nair or dair would probably shield stab as well though...
If they are slightly out of reach, wavedash out of shine and start the ****.

Appreciate your input ^^. I'm working on fox. I've always kinda played him but now that my tech skill is getting a wee bit better, I'd like to start using him a little more seriously.

 

[Tomacawk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6-92HJcdC8&fmt=18
I really need help vs falco.
advice anybody? Where is Jman and Raynex? :/

 

[Grmo]

They're at Mass Madness rofl. Anyway, let's see about this match.

Alright, this is gonna sound really weird, but try playing Falcon against him for a while; it sort of forces you to learn how to get around his lasers. I'll try to get in to some specifics. I play with Raynex all the time, so don't worry; I've learned a lot from him. Not that this is what he would say necessarily.

Alright, the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that you're not using the platforms at all. Intead, you're just succumbing to the gay and being pressured, letting yourself be forced in to sheilding and rolling around; basically being really defensive and desperately looking for an opening. This is what I used to do, and it's basically just falling in to their trap. Towards the end of the match, you made use of the platforms for a moment but then just fell right back in to being hit over and over again. You probably already know the drill with platforms, and why they hurt his laser pressuring game, so make use of it!

You've got really good tech skill, and you have the ability to make good use of grabs when you get them. Try to go for more of them, because I didn't see you get many.

What would be REALLY helpful to you is to start watching your matches and thinking about how to approach and how to counter his approach, and come up with strategies against them. Same goes for videos of pro players. Watch Raynex and Jman and steal stuff from them. Also, try thinking a little more in matches; watch and react, and get grabs. It will even the matchup for you.

 

[Tomacawk]

They're at Mass Madness rofl. Anyway, let's see about this match.

Alright, this is gonna sound really weird, but try playing Falcon against him for a while; it sort of forces you to learn how to get around his lasers. I'll try to get in to some specifics. I play with Raynex all the time, so don't worry; I've learned a lot from him. Not that this is what he would say necessarily.

Alright, the biggest thing I've noticed so far is that you're not using the platforms at all. Intead, you're just succumbing to the gay and being pressured, letting yourself be forced in to sheilding and rolling around; basically being really defensive and desperately looking for an opening. This is what I used to do, and it's basically just falling in to their trap. Towards the end of the match, you made use of the platforms for a moment but then just fell right back in to being hit over and over again. You probably already know the drill with platforms, and why they hurt his laser pressuring game, so make use of it!

You've got really good tech skill, and you have the ability to make good use of grabs when you get them. Try to go for more of them, because I didn't see you get many.

What would be REALLY helpful to you is to start watching your matches and thinking about how to approach and how to counter his approach, and come up with strategies against them. Same goes for videos of pro players. Watch Raynex and Jman and steal stuff from them. Also, try thinking a little more in matches; watch and react, and get grabs. It will even the matchup for you.

I used to be one of those no brain mindless techy foxes that wouldn't pay any attention to his/her opponent, but before smym9 i was able to learn how to space myself out with dd and learn that blindly approaching and landing in front of people's shields = really dumb
the problem is with falco I'm unable to do any of these things, which is really my only problem
if I were to play a falco who had no lasers, I would destroy him, but that's probably the dumbest john of all time lol
and I also can't grab falco, ever
Ripple doesn't even main falco, but he's still able to beat me with falco every single game (granted he's a far better player than I am, but he's a dk/roy/pika main ffs, this **** just don't make sense)
also, I hate approaching from a platform, so that's why I stray away from them
can I do anything else besides drop with a bair/nair/dair from a plat?
and how can I get back onto the map from a ledge against falco? as you can see ripple covered every single option i took except for once I think i got up with walljump->side b and then a ledge hop waveland on the plat
what should be my "goto" recovery? and also i can't get the ledge tech timing for falco's dsmash
am I not smash DI'ing it well enough or is there unique timing for it? (I tech falco's dair far more often than his dsmash >.>)
thanks for the reply, pretty useful stuff

 

[Tomacawk]

want to bump rather than edit incase someone misses it and it's a sticky anyway so **** it
the BIGGEST problem with the lasers is it interupts what I'm doing and makes my movements super awkward (the game where I went marth shows it a LOT better)
I spent so much time on tech skill and I can flow extremely well, but the lasers just **** up my controller inputs and I get really disoriented
is there anything I can do to get over this problem besides not getting hit?

 

[CanISmash]

ayo someone explain this down throw nonsense with falco at high percents.

particularly d-throw d-smash.

its past the percent where ur avoiding a regrab and if eel like u cant tech it or avoid it at all. im not a nub but im super confused still. lololol

 

[EWC]

To retain as much mobility as possible under falco's lasers, learn to shield just before the laser would hit, and wd oos asap. Ideally you would powershield, but reflecting the lasers is not the important part. What matters is minimizing the amount of time you spend with your shield up, so you can get as much time to move in between lasers.

That being said, platforms are very useful for approaching falco, and you should learn to use them. What really matters is not the actual attack you use, but the movement leading up to it. Just practice all the basic platform tricks, i.e. wavelands and the various dropping techs, until you can move around fluidly on them. This aids greatly in moving around laser, and allowing you to get close enough to force opening and capitalize.


I made a really detailed post about edgetechs on page 303 of this thread. In short, you can usually edge tech spikes with just ASDI, but strong horizontal hitting moves require ASDI. If you can tech dair, but not dsmash, it's probably because you aren't using SDI.

 

[Tomacawk]

To retain as much mobility as possible under falco's lasers, learn to shield just before the laser would hit, and wd oos asap. Ideally you would powershield, but reflecting the lasers is not the important part. What matters is minimizing the amount of time you spend with your shield up, so you can get as much time to move in between lasers.

That being said, platforms are very useful for approaching falco, and you should learn to use them. What really matters is not the actual attack you use, but the movement leading up to it. Just practice all the basic platform tricks, i.e. wavelands and the various dropping techs, until you can move around fluidly on them. This aids greatly in moving around laser, and allowing you to get close enough to force opening and capitalize.


I made a really detailed post about edgetechs on page 303 of this thread. In short, you can usually edge tech spikes with just ASDI, but strong horizontal hitting moves require ASDI. If you can tech dair, but not dsmash, it's probably because you aren't using SDI.

I see. I always get the ASDI, I guess I'm missing the SDI part of it.
I can fluidly move on platforms. I can waveland out of shine from each platform from the other and ledge cancel everything, aka, I spent a lot of time on tech skill. My problem, I guess, is actually using the platforms.
And, surprisingly, I'm really really bad at wavedashing out of shield. I have to consciously think about it or else I can't do it :/
looks like I'm back to the ole' single player tech skill grind
as always, thanks for the response

 

[halcyon.days]

WHAT?!

You can edge tech falco's dair with just ASDI? (Assuming he hits you right at the edge). Hmph...

Oh yeah, I had a question about SDI but no one could seem to have an answer to it (unless I'm ******** and missed it). If you're, say, Falcon and recovering. I'm holding towards the stage and when i get hit (let's say by Falco's dsmash) I'll just move my control stick down and then start the QCDI up. Do I have to reset my control stick in the neutral position before starting SDI?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

no i dont think yo udo

 

[EWC]

No, you don't.

 

[Grmo]

Uh, Tomacawk: that's the other thing I noticed. Try not to worry about the d smash. You seem to aim for him as if you're gonna hit him. I know lol, everyone does it, but even if you can tech it there's no point taking the damage when you can avoid being hit. Just try to aim it above him or to use the cloud in some cases, just something to try and avoid taking the smash.

Honestly, it's not so bad landing in front of their shield if you don't miss the l cancel. if you get shined out of the shield pressure then stop doing it. Anyway, you just need to look for openings. I'm really bad at explaining it because it's something I never thought about; it just sort of works. We'll ask Raynex when he gets back.

Speaking of which, HE BEAT KDJ :flame:

 

[Tomacawk]

Uh, Tomacawk: that's the other thing I noticed. Try not to worry about the d smash. You seem to aim for him as if you're gonna hit him. I know lol, everyone does it, but even if you can tech it there's no point taking the damage when you can avoid being hit. Just try to aim it above him or to use the cloud in some cases, just something to try and avoid taking the smash.

Honestly, it's not so bad landing in front of their shield if you don't miss the l cancel. if you get shined out of the shield pressure then stop doing it. Anyway, you just need to look for openings. I'm really bad at explaining it because it's something I never thought about; it just sort of works. We'll ask Raynex when he gets back.

Speaking of which, HE BEAT KDJ :flame:

KDJ is some dumb newb anyway who cares
was it fox dittos?

 

[halcyon.days]

What the ****. I hope you're kidding with that statement.

 

[MattDotZeb]

Raynex posting:

I beat his Marth on Battefield (jv 2). Then he cped me to pokemon in a Fox ditto and 1 stocked me. Then I cped him to Yoshis and 1 stocked him back.

It was recorded.

 

[Tomacawk]

What the ****. I hope you're kidding with that statement.

no, I'm actually dumb enough to think kdj sucks

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Raynex posting:

I beat his Marth on Battefield (jv 2). Then he cped me to pokemon in a Fox ditto and 1 stocked me. Then I cped him to Yoshis and 1 stocked him back.

It was recorded.

wait, wat

You beat who?

Smooth Criminal

 

[halcyon.days]

no, I'm actually dumb enough to think kdj sucks

Apparently.

 

[Binx]

So much spam, and its sounding like he beat KDJ.

Did you play his Sheik at all?

 

[halcyon.days]

So much spam, and its sounding like he beat KDJ.

Did you play his Sheik at all?

I'm not denying the fact that RaynEX beat KDJ. I'm just saying that KDJ doesn't suck.

You should also record some friendlies if you can. Of course, by the time I'm saying this it's too late.

 

[EWC]

Does anyone know at what percentages, against different characters, it's possible to do upthrow-> upair where you only get the second hit of the upair?

 

[halcyon.days]

Does anyone know at what percentages, against different characters, it's possible to do upthrow-> upair where you only get the second hit of the upair?

Wouldn't this just be an issue of timing?

 

[EWC]

Yes, and spacing, but that doesn't make it trivial.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah I would love to see the KDJ fight. Sounds cool. :-)

 

[RaynEX]

Yea me vs. Kdj in losers finals was recorded. Also recorded were my hour-long friendlies vs. Cort and his Marth/Falcon and my winners semis match vs. pc chris.

man im glad to be back.

 

[KirbyKaze]

PC and Darc took you out?

 

[Tomacawk]

Yea me vs. Kdj in losers finals was recorded. Also recorded were my hour-long friendlies vs. Cort and his Marth/Falcon and my winners semis match vs. pc chris.

man im glad to be back.

wow good ****

 

[Thanatos*~]

question:


you hit a marth diagonally up in the air(like kinda a 45 degree angle. you do NOT have time to get under to him to a Uair, but you have a chance to case him and follow up with either:

double jump> nair

-or-

shine >turnaround> double jump> bair



what is the best choice?

 

[SCOTU]

so like, i really suck at the fox ditto. Turns out the way i think about spacing and stuff is based on speed differential of characters, so when they're the same speed... i got nothin. Almost every (reasonable) fox i've played though, knows how to combo better in the ditto than I do, so I'm stuck having to hit them more than they hit/grab me... obviously a bad position to be in (esp. on FD). What sort of **** am I supposed to be using on fox?

 

[Silent Wolf]

so like, i really suck at the fox ditto. Turns out the way i think about spacing and stuff is based on speed differential of characters, so when they're the same speed... i got nothin. Almost every (reasonable) fox i've played though, knows how to combo better in the ditto than I do, so I'm stuck having to hit them more than they hit/grab me... obviously a bad position to be in (esp. on FD). What sort of **** am I supposed to be using on fox?

On platform stages, use jump>shine>waveland>tech chase (run off platform) to get grabs. The shine comes out a lot faster than a grab and it's much more versatile in terms of location possibilities. If they crouch cancel the shine, you can second jump out of it and bair them. Once you get used to this you can just find out where to poke in and start fat combos or set up for an edge guard. Great vs Falco too. If they're pressuring your shield, jump>shine out of shield, doesn't need to be perfect>and do the rest the same, so that takes care of shield pressure. If they try to fade back an aerial like Falco would with his dair, this is much safer than grabbing. Don't use nair if they're below you on the stage vs anyone pretty much, they can crouch cancel shield grab which is really fast and good. Use wall jump air dodge to get back up if possible, so you don't get easily edge guarded.

 

[halcyon.days]

question:


you hit a marth diagonally up in the air(like kinda a 45 degree angle. you do NOT have time to get under to him to a Uair, but you have a chance to case him and follow up with either:

double jump> nair

-or-

shine >turnaround> double jump> bair



what is the best choice?

The shine turnaround bair is really easy to see coming so it's really up to you. If he isn't that high you could just dash attack.

 

[Tyson651]

or double jump bair without the shine turnaround.