Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Sosuke]

You are PAYING MONEY to PLAY A GAME YOU ALREADY OWN

If it isn't about the payout you're an idiot. It's called playing casually against tournament level players, you are more than capable of doing that.

You are playing money to play a game you own AT A HIGH LEVEL. In an ATTEMPT TO WIN MONEY. Why do so many players who enter Genesis or some other top tournament go even thought they KNOW they aren't going to get top 3? Top 5? Even top 10? COMPETITION.

Why would you play casually against tournament level players? To get *****? There is a difference between entering a tournament to win the money and entering the tournament to win. It's a COMPETITION.



Ok, who do you main? Ike?
Why isn't it MK?
If you're straight up wanting to win the money up the ***, you either better be ridiculously good with your main or pick Meta Knight to have a better chance.

^^^this^^^

Apparently you don't have an argument, so I'll just ignore you.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

tempers are most certainly at their peak atm

but ya if you want any type of guaranteed cash you work for it like 99% of us

 

[gantrain05]

luigi actually doesn't have a counter to nado lol.

 

[SOVAman]

Spoiler

. .​

 

[Uffe]

If one player can master his main and use it to beat every other character in the game, including MK, then how can't other players master their characters and do the same thing? Only at this point where matchups become a definite issue and THEN we can talk about whether MK is too broken. I'm still not convinced that this is the case.

Let's see what Snake has. Projectile, the ability to out-camp Meta Knight, rack up damage fairly quick, can survive to at least +200% and has KO potential with just about any attack. Now, replace Snake with a high, mid or low tier. We can talk about match ups and how that will solve the problem. But when the one maining Meta Knight figures out all the match ups against high, mid and low tiers, then basically those characters are screwed again, right? Because even though they were able to figure out how to beat Meta Knight, Meta Knight's got a new plan on how to beat them.

I bet MikeHAZE has beaten top MK's in the past as well as lost to them. Stuff happens.

Anybody else but with different characters?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If Meta Knight is so good, WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE PLAY HIM?

This was already answered in the OP didn't you at least read that?

 

[Rykoshet]

Ok, I tried to make my sarcasm as easy to notice as possible, but seriously...?

HOW ****ING DENSE CAN YOU BE? *facepalm*

You're going to make an ignorant blanket statement (even in jest) in a topic FULL of ignorant blanket statements and expect me to not take it at face value?

Seriously?

 

[JUDGE]

hmmm..... you couldn't say it's a counter but he can still attack from above^^^x'DD lol

 

[Dark 3nergy]

You are playing money to play a game you own AT A HIGH LEVEL. In an ATTEMPT TO WIN MONEY. Why do so many players who enter Genesis or some other top tournament go even thought they KNOW they aren't going to get top 3? Top 5? Even top 10? COMPETITION.

Or just you know, have a good time. Cuz yea like you said, they may not place anywhere high nor make it out of pools but if they had one hell of a time then the xx,xxx mile journey was well worth it-- but in rly when u think about it wouldnt it boil down to how much one puts into the tournament right?

 

[MarKO X]

You're going to make an ignorant blanket statement (even in jest) in a topic FULL of ignorant blanket statements and expect me to not take it at face value?

*wishes I could bold the image*

*unbolds the image*

Seriously?

I dunno why, but I lol'd at that post.

 

[Eddie G]

You're going to make an ignorant blanket statement (even in jest) in a topic FULL of ignorant blanket statements and expect me to not take it at face value?

Seriously?

Yes, yes I do.

Now get off of your high horse already.

 

[Brinzy]

You know what, after reading Ryko's stuff over and over, and now that I'm willing to buckle down and be a bit more serious about this, it may actually be time for a ban. There are good reasons on both sides for ban/no ban, but something ryko mentioned earlier (which others probably have but I didn't notice and I certainly don't pay too much attention to the match-ups) is that there's a four-way thing between Marth, DDD, Falco, and Snake, or at least I think it was snake. Something like Marth losing to DDD and Snake, Snake losing to DDD, DDD losing to Falco, and Falco losing to Marth. Excuse me if I don't have that right.

Come to think of it, that makes sense...

 

[Rykoshet]

You are playing money to play a game you own AT A HIGH LEVEL.

Which you can do without paying a dime aside from travel costs.

In an ATTEMPT TO WIN MONEY.

Which should be your main and ONLY goal in a tournament.

Why do so many players who enter Genesis or some other top tournament go even thought they KNOW they aren't going to get top 3? Top 5? Even top 10?

Because they get hyped into paying for jason's college fund and we adopted some sort of social praise system for people who do relatively well while still coming out to a financial loss. Gold stars in kindergarten cost less to achieve and mean about as much.

 

[POKE40]

Spoiler

. .​

Spoiler

lol. lil_b trying to be sneaky with the spoilers

 

[Matador]

Spoiler

Indubitably

intrinsically

luigi actually doesn't have a counter to nado lol.

Sure he does. It's called up angled shield -> upB

Edit:

You know what, after reading Ryko's stuff over and over, and now that I'm willing to buckle down and be a bit more serious about this, it may actually be time for a ban. There are good reasons on both sides for ban/no ban, but something ryko mentioned earlier (which others probably have but I didn't notice and I certainly don't pay too much attention to the match-ups) is that there's a four-way thing between Marth, DDD, Falco, and Snake, or at least I think it was snake. Something like Marth losing to DDD and Snake, Snake losing to DDD, DDD losing to Falco, and Falco losing to Marth. Excuse me if I don't have that right.

Come to think of it, that makes sense...

Exactly what I said. I sat in front of my laptop for like...10 minutes trying to figure out something to say about his point.

But then I strawmanned him. Like a boss.

 

[Deadweight]

so ive read the thread over And i dont thikn people realize what this poll is for...
I saw a bunch of people saying we need 66% in the poll to remove mK.... butttttttt
This poll its self doesnt determine wether MK gets banned or not.

SBR is the end all.
The majority of the vote in the poll will gain +1 vote in the final decision
and every 2.5 % more gives another +1 vote.
If the poll were to end right now... Pro ban would get two votes.

 

[Baro]

Sure he does. It's called up angled shield -> upB

He has an even better one. RUN AWAY.

 

[Eddie G]

You know what, after reading Ryko's stuff over and over, and now that I'm willing to buckle down and be a bit more serious about this, it may actually be time for a ban. There are good reasons on both sides for ban/no ban, but something ryko mentioned earlier (which others probably have but I didn't notice and I certainly don't pay too much attention to the match-ups) is that there's a four-way thing between Marth, DDD, Falco, and Snake, or at least I think it was snake. Something like Marth losing to DDD and Snake, Snake losing to DDD, DDD losing to Falco, and Falco losing to Marth. Excuse me if I don't have that right.

Come to think of it, that makes sense...

Sounds a lot like how it is in Melee doesn't it?

 

[Deadweight]

intrinsically

Sure he does. It's called up angled shield -> upB

now punish the torando.
Owait....

Whats stopping him from doing it again?
and again?
and again?
and again?

 

[LuigiKing]

luigi actually doesn't have a counter to nado lol.

Lol true story. None of his moves go through it. Not one. Dair very rarely can if you hit it just right at the top of the nado, but that never happens. LOL.

 

[Baro]

now punish the torando.
Owait....

Whats stopping him from doing it again?
and again?
and again?
and again?

>_>

riiiight

 

[Matador]

now punish the torando.
Owait....

Whats stopping him from doing it again?
and again?
and again?
and again?

Dude...after the nado, he's ****ing dead. MK doesn't live from upb after like 40%.

 

[Divinokage]

Sounds a lot like how it is in Melee doesn't it?

Ya in melee there is at least a good square chart matchups between Sheik, Fox, Falco and Marth... I think. Neither of them are **** matchups but at least if you matchup one of these, one of them will have a slight advantage.

But with MK.. well... lol. Or maybe it has not been discovered yet what you can do to punish well.

 

[Fatmanonice]

By the way.

I want to state that this whole Meta Knight ban-issue hurts the community a lot.

He is a nuisance to many, but it would hurt the community. I think if Meta Knight gets banned, a lot of Meta Knight players would simply quit the game and play something else. That means that we'd lose quite a lot of players, not only on Top level (Mew2King), but also throughout high and mid level play.

Furthermore, I think that many players of other characters are exaggerating their matchups against Meta Knight in order to have him banned faster, since - while not being a horrible one to most of the cast - he still gives them a slight disadvantage. With one disadvantage and the best character gone, these characters' players think they will magically do better at tournaments, while not keeping in mind that the characters that give them more problems will definitely see an increase from the Meta Knight players that stay in the game. The community has been so clenching onto the chance of Meta Knight being banned that I don't think that many things have been evaluated rationally.

In conclusion, while I do think Meta Knight's presence hurts the community as a whole, this is only due to the whole ban-talk.

Truth be told, most people will just change characters if Metaknight is gone. As pointed out many, many times, M2K is the only major Metaknight player who has threaten to quit if Metaknight is banned. Like I said in another post, with Metaknight gone, 5 characters (Olimar, Toon Link, ROB, Pikachu, and argueably Pit) would become viable and 4 characters (King Dedede, Mr. Game and Watch, Ice Climbers, and Marth) would become more viable. Nobody is saying that things will become magically better for the low tier/mid tier characters. A vast majority of the cast would lose one bad match up but some characters may have it worse in some regions depending on which characters became popular with Metaknight gone. As I explained in another post, if the number of King Dedede players increases, Donkey Kong will definately have a harder time but if the number of Snake players increase, DK will actually benefit. All in all, the only characters that would really have it bad across the board with Metaknight gone are Yoshi and Jigglypuff seeing how they actually have it better with him than most of the other high/top tier characters.

In all honesty, I don't know why people believe that Metaknight being banned would create a huge exodus of people quitting Brawl. If anything, more people would be willing to compete with Metaknight gone especially with nine characters having increased chances of actually winning a tournament. All in all, there's no doubt in my mind that the number of Metaknight players who initially leave will be dwarfed by the number of people who decide that Brawl is actually worth playing competitively with him gone.

 

[Rykoshet]

I cited melee and third strike when I brought up the multiple character balance. The three-four-five way stalemate is how competitive play should be built. It makes a rock paper scissors lizard spock choice out of the high level meta game and rewards people for understanding multiple aspects of the character instead of leaving it at rock paper scissors lizard spock TORNADO and ****ing it all up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

luigi actually doesn't have a counter to nado lol.

Luigi has a counter to nado. It's called "SDI", it works for every character and it doesn't even require a shield to execute it. You will take a whooping 3% from a tornado and can punish it with a nair AND YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO USE YOUR GODDAMMED SHIELD. Too bad, 90% of the players suck horribly at this game.

 

[Matador]

FMOI, haven't you heard the latest news? Marth isn't tourney viable, lolz

Edit @ Ryko: Where's ur word? omg I was looking forward to your adjective to get me thru the day T_T

 

[QUIVO]

How about we just leave it to the TO's to ban MK or not. For those who don't like MK, they can play smash somewhere else.. unless they wanna be a **** and hold a tournament the same day.

 

[Rykoshet]

Why do people act like tornado isn't wholly maneuverable.

 

[Baro]

I honestly believe people only play Brawl competitively because they played Melee competitively. Regardless of how bad or good this game is, it has a large competitive scene, which is kind of sad. If Melee and/or 64 never existed, this game would never take off.

 

[Sosuke]

Which you can do without paying a dime aside from travel costs.

Wow, just like the other guy.
nitpicking.


Do you know how much travel costs are?
Usually much more then entering the freaking tournament if it's a big one.

Which should be your main and ONLY goal in a tournament.

NO it shouldn't. Your goal should be to WIN. Money is just the PRIZE.
What the hell would you be doing entering a tournament for money when there are MUCH BETTER and MORE GUARANTEED ways to make money??

Because they get hyped into paying for jason's college fund and we adopted some sort of social praise system for people who do relatively well while still coming out to a financial loss. Gold stars in kindergarten cost less to achieve and mean about as much.

-_-
Why do I try to debate with people who are less mature then my 9 year old brother? =/

I'm sure you can think of some stupid response to that to. "Because you have the time to"
"you proved my own point hurr durr"

 

[Vanill4]

So anti-ban likes Sirlin for their requirements for a ban, right?

...consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

So after we kiss Sirlin's *** to not ban this OP character who is hated by so many members of the community, can we unban Planking/the 50 ledgegrab rule to make him even better and more hated? It's what Sirlin would do, after all.

 

[Eddie G]

Ya in melee there is at least a good square chart matchups between Sheik, Fox, Falco and Marth... I think. Neither of them are **** matchups but at least if you matchup one of these, one of them will have a slight advantage.

But with MK.. well... lol.

Yeah, and another similarity between the two is that there are a few characters under the top 4 that can still contend with them such as Falcon and Peach in Melee, and Diddy/ZSS/Peach/etc. in Brawl. Then you have some special people out there (like yourself) that can make other characters work as well (like your Ganon in Melee).

Guess who breaks this stability?

 

[Brinzy]

I cited melee and third strike when I brought up the multiple character balance. The three-four-five way stalemate is how competitive play should be built. It makes a rock paper scissors lizard spock choice out of the high level meta game and rewards people for understanding multiple aspects of the character instead of leaving it at rock paper scissors lizard spock TORNADO and ****ing it all up.

Well you've made your case, and you've convinced me... along with the fact that for the most part, this game has come a long way and likely won't go *that* much farther as far as character metagames go, as in enough to drastically change match-ups.


Alright, pro-ban it is then.

 

[MarKO X]

rock paper scissors lizard spock TORNADO

TORNADO definitely beats rock, paper, scissors, lizard, and spock.

Next time I play RPS....

 

[Clai]

and

cONTRADICT EACHOTHER
Saying that Ally beats top MKs is as silly as saying MikeHaze Loses to Top MKs.
IT DOESNT ****ING MATTER.
WHAT MATTERS IS METAKNIGHT OVERCENTRALIZES THE METAGAME AND BREAKS THE CP SYSTEM AND FORCES MID-HIGH TIER MAINS TO SWITCH TO MK

Because being a master means that you win 100% of the time, always, right? Besides, MikeHAZE is going to have it a little tougher than Ally because MK has a clear advantage over Marth, but he is even against Snake. As I said, when everyone is at the top level, matchups become much more important, and having even matchups at worst does not signify broken; it signifies being a top-tier character. Learn the difference.

Metaknight overcentralizing the metagame? So concentrating your strategies to beat the best and most overused character in the game is overcentralizing? I'm pretty sure it's called "Not being idiots and accepting that you're going to have to play the best and most overused character in the game at some point and using collective brainpower to try and defeat him."

Metaknight breaking the counterpicking system? If Metaknight counters your main to the point where you have to counterpick to beat him, too bad. You willingly picked a character that is countered by the best and most overused character in the game, and hopefully you picked up a back-up plan. If not, you are an idiot for not accepting facts. If your character is not countered by Metaknight and you are using this argument, then learn to fight Metaknight since you have a decent chance of beating him and stop being a whiny ***** about it.

Metaknight forces mid-high tier mains to pick up MK? Umm, I main Ganondorf and at no point have I ever been forced to pick up Metaknight. You know what I do against the characters I'm forced to counterpick with? I use Game and Watch who, despite this whole 'Metaknight is the only way to win tournaments," is a viable character more than capable of beating Ganon's worst matchups. Whoever says they are FORCED to pick up Metaknight is a weak person who shouldn't have been maining their low-mid-high tier character in the first place.

 

[UberWatts]

Chicks love the robots

i must also be a robot

 

[Baro]

>>less mature then my 9 year old brother

>>"you proved my own point hurr durr"

Yes! Yes yes yes! Sasukebowser, posts like this are what I live for.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Sure he does. It's called up angled shield -> upB

shouldn't a counter result in MK being hurt? The shield is just a way to protect your self from harm not to gain the advantage over MK spamming it.

 

[Rykoshet]

Wow, just like the other guy.
nitpicking.
Do you know how much travel costs are?
Usually much more then entering the freaking tournament if it's a big one.

It's not nitpicking, it's ****ing truth. It cost me a grand total of 18 bucks to get to inui's hotel during COT4, and while i was there I could have played people from Canada, MD/VA, Florida and surrounding states, MI, Jersey, and NY all the same. The ONLY region I would have missed out on seeing was texas. You know how much the COT4 weekend cost me? WAY more than 18 bucks, that's for **** sure. I can easily practice against high level players all across this region for way more time and way less money than going to a tournament, it's not nitpicking if it's true.

NO it shouldn't. Your goal should be to WIN. Money is just the PRIZE.

Now THIS, THIS is nitpicking. The end is the money, the win is the means by which you reach the end. Don't argue semantics buddy, it doesn't change the result.

Why do I try to debate with people who are less mature then my 9 year old brother?

You know nothing of my maturity, bringing up a non-sequitur because you're lacking a point speaks far more about yours than it ever will about mine.