Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[swordgard]

This is wifi but....Atomsk Cp'd me with kirby.

He would wreck you with d3 at a tourney >.<

 

[Kewkky]

And MK cannot get out of ice climbers chaingrab. Thats 1 bad position the character doesnt change anything out of. You said 1, i gave you 1. No johns.

Fine you got me. I actually lol'd at that cuz of how obvious that position is.

Still, MK has a way easier time avoiding that position than practically the rest of the cast. MK takes to the air, dair camps, then lands with a tornado away from ICs in the perfect height as to land without lag, then dsmash to push ICs away if they get too close, and that's one scenario that IC's will have some serious trouble going past.

 

[cutter]

Uair is a viable argument because it is a fact that uair ends before you airdodge does, and it's not like uair has pisspoor range either.

MK falling Uair will beat G&W's Dair, to give you an idea of how good the range on MK's Uair can be. You're better off though of Utilting it.

Then again a ton of attacks beat G&W's Dair lol.

@ Kewkky: MK Dair camping is beaten out by ICs Uair which outranges it. They can also pivotgrab tornados. Blizzard is an excellent tool at walling MK's approaches. ICs definately have the leverage they need to at least limit MK's options.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I voted yes simply for one reason and thats cause i want too see how the metagame will change without MK.

equip steak

 

[AvaricePanda]

Guess I should've been more specific... Top players who regularly place higher than top MK mains.


And Ally is a great player and invested a lot of time into one character who happens to be the 2nd best character in the game, and just like MK, by a huge margin that separates him from the rest of the cast. We can all use this same argument for any player who uses any of those two characters, but there's a key difference: Snake can be put into dangerous positions. Name one realistic scenario that MK can't save himself from, that is also shared by Snake.

MK gets grabbed by ICs, lol.

More realistically, MK hits Diddy's shield when he has a banana in hand. Unless he hits it with a very well spaced D-tilt, he's more than likely going to get hit by a banana. Snake shares and doesn't share this, as if he hits his shield with grenades or other projectiles, he's safe, and his U-tilt and F-tilt are disjointed enough to keep him safe at max range.

Whatever happened to NinjaLink vs M2K in FD? That was a counterpick and it worked for him, and you can't deny that it worked in NinjaLink's favor. If M2K learned the MU and improved his zoning against NL's Diddy later, that's part of being a TOP player. Counterpicks usually don't determine a better player at top levels of play, that's why they're TOP levels of play, because they are the pinnacle of the best, and they have made sure that anything that could happen against them, can be worked around to their advantage, or at least to a point that they're not as affected by the situation as they're supposed to be.

The CHARACTER counterpick system is what I meant. Not the stage counterpick system, the CHARACTER counterpick system. It's not used much at high, or even mid levels of play. What you typed didn't have much to do with my point.

In mid to high levels of play, the character counterpick system isn't often used. When it's used, it's only to cover your main's really bad or difficult match-ups, not to put yourself in a larger advantage than your opponent when the match-up is already do-able. Go to any tournament results thread (or tournament lol), and you'll usually only see two characters at most by someone's name, maybe three, and if you check other results threads with the same players ,most likely there will be the same two characters by their name. People generally stick through their main unless they absolutely have to switch, and if they do they switch to a character that they've practiced who does well against the opponent, not a character they've only toyed with that does best against the opponent.

Most viable characters don't require a secondary character, and the characters that do require a secondary character usually only require one. (for example, Fox and Marth secondary). People generally don't know 4-5 characters well enough to actually counter-pick someone who's decent to good to really good to pro with their character.

Character match-up numbers generally count at high levels of play. You can't expect to CP D3 that you've used twice against computers and beat a competent Snake at local tournaments. Especially considering that most character boards prioritize learning top tier match-ups and difficult match-ups first, and players generally do the same. So even though that Snake vs. D3 is 55:45 or 60:40 D3 (or advantage D3, since numbers suck), the Snake will most likely know the match-up pretty well and have experience being Snake to boot, while you only toy with D3 and don't really know the match-up, just know "lol chaingrab and b-air is good too."

Counterpicking Marth against Omniswell/Hunger/Krystedez (three good Midwest Warios) won't work unless Marth is your serious secondary or you main Marth. Counterpicking Marth against that random Wario who gives you trouble but doesn't consistently make it out of pools probably won't work either (unless there's a large gap in player skill, in which case there's no point in counterpicking in the first place), as 1) You aren't good with Marth, 2) The Wario put much more time into Wario than you did Marth, and 3) The Wario probably knows the actual match-up, while you just know a number.

That's why I say that the character counterpick system isn't important or used enough at mid to high levels of play for it to matter if MK has a disadvantageous match-up. The only people actually winning the match-up would be people who main the character or seriously secondary them, and even then, 45-55 match-ups are easily doable.

And this is a point people fail to understand. Why learn SO MANY CHARACTERS for different MUs, when they can learn MK and instantly be at an advantage, if not a small one, against all of those you mentioned? Some characters might do it better against others (example: Kirby vs Falco), but it's easier to learn just one universal option, than many different options at the same time. You learn faster, and it pays off in tourney practice.

So two characters is SOOO MANY CHARACTERS?

Two characters is two characters, and one of the characters you're only practicing for one match-up, so it's not that much longer than just picking MK. Why can't people just pick a top tier main and a secondary to counter their couple of bad match-ups? It doesn't take that much longer at all. Learning new characters in Brawl doesn't take a year; it takes very little time when you're already a good player.

So, what you're telling me, that everyone has told me many times to stop talking about because it's subjective and can't be used as a generalized point of view, is that some people believe it's "fun" to use other characters?

derp.

Saying that, "Playing MK takes the fun out of the game for me," is subjective and irrelevant, because MK is the favorite match-up to play for some people, and some people happen to main MK and like using him.

Saying that, "People don't all use MK because it's not fun for them," isn't a subjective statement, nor is it irrelevant. It's a reason why not all people play MK, because it's not fun for them. Not everyone picks the best option simply because they're the best, case in point, just about any other fighting game in existence. It's not irrelevant because it's a reason why not everyone plays MK.

It's not the same statement. Just because both statements use the word fun, doesn't mean it's automatically subjectivity. Plus, both have different purposes. One is, "MK isn't fun for me, ban MK," a statement used as an argument to ban the character. One is, "Not everyone uses MK because not everyone has fun using MK," is a statement used to explain why not everyone uses MK.

I've been trying to say that losing to MK consistently takes the fun out of the game, and the player-base that can't seem to get around MK no matter how hard they try and how much they spend learning the MU will eventually tire and change to MK because it's what works

Oh yeah, because no character can possibly have an even match-up against him, nor a match-up where the better player wins like Diddy, Snake, ICs, and Wario. And you obviously know in-depth all of those match-ups to say that he has no bad or even match-ups and picking MK to fight MK is the best bet.

Also, the thing is, playing MK to some people is fun. Maybe there's a Donkey Kong main who loves playing MK, but losing to D3 takes the fun out of the game for him, or an ICs main who loves playing against MK, but losing to Snake takes the fun out of the game for him. Does that justify a ban?

Fun, in itself, is subjective, which is why you can't ban something for not being fun. My statement that not everyone uses MK because not everyone has fun with them corresponds with the fact that fun is subjective; some people will have fun with him, some won't. Your statement sounds like everyone hates playing MK, so ban him.

, OR leave the game. What about those people? Should the game revolve around the top players only? What game in this world is played by 70-100 people nationwide because the rules were bent around the top players, and not to please the community as a whole, or at least the majority of the community?

What about the people who play MK because they're fun for them! Or the people who play MK! What about those people? If you ban MK, then a lot of these people are going to quit! Is that fair?!?

Pandering to emotions in a debate=doesn't work 99% of the time.

Also, how did you manage to change the subject between people who don't like playing against MK and top players? Are you saying top players all use MK and don't mind fighting him, while all mid level players feel the opposite? If so, then lol.

So you take action because it's too late, right? Want me to bring up real-time events such as global warming? Use common sence, c'mon! We don't ban things after they hapen, we ban thing to avoid such situations from happening!

NO

First off:

1) You compared banning a character in a fighting game to global warming.

In a fighting game, you wait until the thing in question is proven to be banworthy before you ban it. If it isn't banworthy or is debatable, you don't ban it. Why? Because if you ban it prematurely and it turns out that the thing wasn't banworthy, then congratulations, 22% of the playerbase were screwed out of their main because of people acting prematurely.

Furthermore, if you just wait until the thing is banworthy, there isn't harm done. Oh no, MK completely dominates tournaments for 2-3 weeks! That isn't something that will kill the game, considering that you can just ban it afterwards.

Now with global warming (lol), if you wait to see if it's true and the problems take place, you can't reverse everything with a simple statement of a "ban" on global warming. That's silly. In that case, you have to act prematurely to be safe in order to avoid permanent damage, whereas if you wait to ban in a fighting game, permanent damage doesn't happen (while permanent damage happens with a ban alltogether, which funnily enough if you do it prematurely...yeah)

Wario wouldn't be considered for a banning because he has obvious exploitable weaknesses. Not even Fiction (crazy Wario, I enjoy his matches) can avoid being grabbed, and he has
Sound familiar?

hurr MK hitting diddy's shield when he has a banana hurrrr killing MK off the top hurrr

That wasn't your initial argument. You originally said that, "Everyone would use MK, and he would dominate," as basis for a ban, nothing to do with match-ups. So I countered to what you just said. If the overcentralization isn't forced, you don't ban it. If all of midwest picked up MK, you don't ban him, because it isn't forced and there are other viable options. If all of midwest picked up Wario, you don't ban him, because it isn't forced and there are other viable options.

And nothing will continue to stop people from using him after the ban is passed or not. It's just a suggestion for a ruleset the SBR is promoting.

Didn't counter the point I made.

And TOs enforcing the rules will.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Then again a ton of attacks beat G&W's Dair lol.

is there a list about this? i'd like to read up on it

 

[cutter]

is there a list about this? i'd like to read up on it

From the top of my head:

- Link's Uair
- TL's Uair
- MK's Uair
- Marth's Utilt
- Marth's Up B
- Olimar's Uair
- DDD's Uair
- MK's Up B
- MK's Utilt

 

[AvaricePanda]

Fine you got me. I actually lol'd at that cuz of how obvious that position is.

Still, MK has a way easier time avoiding that position than practically the rest of the cast. MK takes to the air, dair camps, then lands with a tornado away from ICs in the perfect height as to land without lag, then dsmash to push ICs away if they get too close, and that's one scenario that IC's will have some serious trouble going past.

At that height, ICs can just run and grab him. When he's falling to the ground from that height, that's considered lag too, even if there isn't lag when he hits the ground.

IDK who keeps saying cp'ing is unimportant but stop. Top snake CP'd me with MK. Top mario Cp'd my friend with G&w. I CP'd a luigi with MK.

Again, most people don't use the character CP system unless

1) The character they're going to use is their good secondary.
2) They're facing a notably bad match-up without CPing.

I'm not sure who your friend was, but I'm pretty sure Candy's MK doesn't suck and he's practiced it, so him switching to MK vs. a Fox would actually give him an advantage rather than staying Snake. And Fox vs. Luigi is pretty bad for Fox (like 65:35 bad) so CPing is a logical choice.

My original statement was that at mid to high levels of play, the CP system isn't used often enough for MK to require a disadvantageous match-up. You didn't really refute either of those statements, you just said, "I've seen people CP characters who are good so lol."

lol.
fun is not a viable argument because fun is an opinion. Opinions are not facts.
Uair is a viable argument because it is a fact that uair ends before you airdodge does, and it's not like uair has pisspoor range either.

Fun is not an argument. Fun is a noun.

Fun can be used as an opinion or a fact. An opinion is, "MK is not fun to play against." A fact is, "Not everyone uses MK because not everyone has fun with him."

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

A lot of moves "beat" it depending on spacing. For instance, Zelda can usmash Mr. Game & Watch out of the key unless he aims for the vortex of her usmash... which is very possible to do consistently. You can just aim for Meta Knight's side to avoid utilt every time, and speaking of Meta Knight, I'm pretty sure his Shuttle Loop only really works against the key when it's grounded Shuttle Loop (aerial Shuttle Loop is really easy to plow through in general with Mr. Game & Watch). Something like Marth's up special doesn't really "count" since it's just abusing invincibility frames; you could do the same with a ton of moves to beat literally anything if you time them right.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

From the top of my head:


- MK's Up B

Actually, when I dair mk's aerial upb, the dair normally wins.

 

[Clai]

Again, most people don't use the character CP system unless

1) The character they're going to use is their good secondary.
2) They're facing a notably bad match-up without CPing.

I'm not sure who your friend was, but I'm pretty sure Candy's MK doesn't suck and he's practiced it, so him switching to MK vs. a Fox would actually give him an advantage rather than staying Snake. And Fox vs. Luigi is pretty bad for Fox (like 65:35 bad) so CPing is a logical choice.

My original statement was that at mid to high levels of play, the CP system isn't used often enough for MK to require a disadvantageous match-up. You didn't really refute either of those statements, you just said, "I've seen people CP characters who are good so lol."

This essentially sums up everything I was going to say about it. Many players do have a reliable secondary to cover their bad matchups and don't blindly counterpick to the one character that beats the opponent's character the most, like some people are thinking. Thanks, AvaricePanda.

 

[BBQTV]

equip steak

??????????

 

[Inui]

My keen observation and incredible Ivy U. education have shown me the truth. Anti-ban has triumphed and the clearly not banworthy character under discussion will be permitted to continue existing.

 

[Red Arremer]

My keen observation and incredible Ivy U. education have shown me the truth. Anti-ban has triumphed and the clearly not banworthy character under discussion will be permitted to continue existing.

How dare you to use the character I've used for so long?!

 

[BBQTV]

My keen observation and incredible Ivy U. education have shown me the truth. Anti-ban has triumphed and the clearly not banworthy character under discussion will be permitted to continue existing.

making the whole thing pointless is their really going to be another one of these?

 

[Inui]

How dare you to use the character I've used for so long?!

There are...two Wesley Sticklers in this world?

Interesting.

I dare say... The world is not ready for such brilliance to exist at the same time. The advances in science we could achieve together would be limitless. Ivy U. will even have two valedictorians next year!

 

[Genome Squirrel]

so is this really the last mk banning debate until some hypothetical advancement of the metagame
or are they going to make this a yearly event

 

[Dark 3nergy]

From the top of my head:

- Link's Uair
- TL's Uair
- MK's Uair
- Marth's Utilt
- Marth's Up B
- Olimar's Uair
- DDD's Uair
- MK's Up B
- MK's Utilt

ok thanks, gonna write this down

There are...two Wesley Sticklers in this world?

Interesting.

I dare say... The world is not ready for such brilliance to exist at the same time. The advances in science we could achieve together would be limitless. Ivy U. will even have two valedictorians next year!

i have created a monster

 

[Sosuke]

Too many gifs

 

[Dark 3nergy]

??????????

HOW DOES THIS BOY NOT KNOW OF THE STEAK

 

[JUDGE]

From the top of my head:

- Link's Uair
- TL's Uair
- MK's Uair
- Marth's Utilt
- Marth's Up B
- Olimar's Uair
- DDD's Uair
- MK's Up B
- MK's Utilt

you forgot mario's upb

 

[BBQTV]

HOW DOES THIS BOY NOT KNOW OF THE STEAK

enlightened me

 

[Red Arremer]

There are...two Wesley Sticklers in this world?

Interesting.

I dare say... The world is not ready for such brilliance to exist at the same time. The advances in science we could achieve together would be limitless. Ivy U. will even have two valedictorians next year!

To be quite frank...

Yes.

... ... ...

Amazing!

Imagine the staggering magnificence if two bright minds like us would team up...! The earth Ivy U. was built on would shatter into pieces, the omnipotence of our gloriousity would unite humanity under us, we would be the rulers of this planet, governing it with wisdom and knowledge. United as one, we shall rise and bring a golden era to this world.

 

[Kewkky]

awwwwwwwwww

Ah well, life's life. Guess I'll just wait to see what happens in the future.

 

[TP]

So is the thread gonna be locked soon?

 

[Inui]

ROFLMAO @ Spadefox

I'd continue, but I don't want infractions over something so stupid. People like trying to get me banned.

 

[swordgard]

My keen observation and incredible Ivy U. education have shown me the truth. Anti-ban has triumphed and the clearly not banworthy character under discussion will be permitted to continue existing.

Where exactly does it states pro ban lost ?

 

[JUDGE]

sadaharu inui, and spade fox.......I LOOOVE YOU!!!!!^^

@D.E.

DO NOT FORGET MARIOS UPB WHEN YOU WRITE IT DOWN!!!^^

 

[Dark 3nergy]

ROFLMAO @ Spadefox

I'd continue, but I don't want infractions over something so stupid. People like trying to get me banned.

actually, go start a thread somewhere and we can all RPG using emo-icons

it'l lbe a blast trsut me

sadaharu inui, and spade fox.......I LOOOVE YOU!!!!!^^

@D.E.

DO NOT FORGET MARIOS UPB WHEN YOU WRITE IT DOWN!!!^^

YES DAD OK

 

[betterthanbonds9]

at least MK is fun to play as

also, those gifs are funny

 

[da K.I.D.]

Where exactly does it states pro ban lost ?

in the back room poll...

 

[Red Arremer]

ROFLMAO @ Spadefox

I'd continue, but I don't want infractions over something so stupid. People like trying to get me banned.

Tsk tsk tsk.

Although I'm fully aware of what you have suffered last week, Wiinui, I won't be letting this tomfoolery take my pride and joy. This being said, my penalty level is low enough for me to risk as much.
...Hah!

Where exactly does it states pro ban lost ?

The public poll has been posted after the SBR poll, which is now closed. Pro-Ban can still make an impact of a few votes through the public poll, but it won't be enough votes to overtake Anti-Ban anymore, even if it should reach 55%.
Although it was bad from Inui to spill these beans, it was pretty much clear after his first statement regarding it the SBR poll in here.

 

[Inui]

Where exactly does it states pro ban lost ?

The SBR. It has been officially decided that anti-ban has won. It was explained from the start that this poll wouldn't count for a lot. Pro-ban scored 2 votes from it, but still lost by a lot in the end.

sadaharu inui, and spade fox.......I LOOOVE YOU!!!!!^^

 

[Sosuke]

It was pretty clear as soon as the thread opened, to be honest.

 

[Inui]

It was pretty clear as soon as the thread opened, to be honest.

So true, so true. Justice will always triumph.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

It was pretty clear as soon as the thread opened, to be honest.

so i guess they just needed a reason to argue about MK more?

 

[swordgard]

The SBR. It has been officially decided that anti-ban has won. It was explained from the start that this poll wouldn't count for a lot. Pro-ban scored 2 votes from it, but still lost by a lot in the end.

I wish i was in the SBR T.T



Then again, i guess il just have to step my game and my knowledge up if i want to get in there, no point in whining ^.^



Well, good game pro ban. No rematch.

 

[DemonFart]

Whoa, its finally over?

I don't really care either way. But since Mk is staying, might as well use him.

 

[BBQTV]

It was pretty clear as soon as the thread opened, to be honest.

it sure was

 

[Jack Kieser]

The SBR. It has been officially decided that anti-ban has won. It was explained from the start that this poll wouldn't count for a lot. Pro-ban scored 2 votes from it, but still lost by a lot in the end.

Wait... so why even DO this?! If it was known from the get-go that the SBR had ALREADY DECIDED that MK wouldn't be banned, and if they KNEW that the pro-ban on this poll would need to win by a significant margin in order to effect the SBR results...

Why the hell even MAKE this thread?