Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[∫unk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMoWCivG0x4#t=1m3s

LOOOOOOOOOOOL

mk's shuttle loop is ridiculous

 

[kr3wman]

No DI is ridiculous

 

[infomon]

I think MK has the potential to be broken someday; his frame data is crazy.
But we just don't have the results to support it yet, IMO. And we prolly never will.

So don't ban him. And stop banning stages / edge-grabbing / chaingrabs / other random stuff you feel like banning, until we've actually proven that they're broken.

I'd rather ban a character than impose artificial and arbitrary limitations on his ability to play the game.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

No DI is ridiculous

i think the better phrase is, being able to DI when you least expect yourself to be sent flying

 

[POKE40]

i think the better phrase is, being able to DI when you least expect yourself to be sent flying

The best phrase is Brawl is ridiculous.
jk





On Topic:

Hypothetically speaking, if MK is banned would someone like Ike (for mk being 70:30) would go up on the tier list (obviously more than +1)? Or is it possible for someone like Ike to remain in the same spot?

It is all hypothetical.


Also, do you guys think they'll lock this discussion after the poll reaches its closing?


Just a curiosity.

 

[Palpi]

MK is not the only match up that shuts Ike down. Falco, Olimar, and D3 are just as bad. I don't think he would benefit that much, considering those are 3 characters people would flock to, to find new mains.

 

[Masmasher@]

In realty this debate means nothing cause more then half of the people voting wont even look at this thread... they will just vote. It seems that anti ban is catching up.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

The best phrase is Brawl is ridiculous.
jk

I thought it was the following;

"Too good, John's, Planking, or Something negative about Meta Knight"

??

 

[Kinzer]

I thought it was the following;

"Too good, John's, Planking, or Something negative about Meta Knight"

??

Money back.

 

[Laijin]

People WON'T find new mains.
They will play a better game.
The community will get destroyed.
Why would anyone want to keep playing this game if they can't win as easily?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Also, do you guys think they'll lock this discussion after the poll reaches its closing?

Just a curiosity.[/COLOR][/B]

I hope so. He WON'T get banned since pro-ban didn't get sufficient vote percentage.

All of the important things that have been said have already been said from both sides and everyone is starting to repeat themselves to the point where both pro and anti are sounding like a broken record.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Money back.

I forgot Sandbagging

and possibly johning for others which in some posts i've read in here, had done so already

since there doesnt seem to be any raging debate about us yet;
anyone care to start us off with some deliciously angry pet peeve about meta knight, that you TRUELY believe is numb mindlingly broken and stupid?

i mean, why not continue down this idoicracy we've built in this thread-- hell its been about 5 days and 400 pages of angry lets not stop the anger train we have going here :bandwagon:

 

[kr3wman]

On Topic:

Hypothetically speaking, if MK is banned would someone like Ike (for mk being 70:30) would go up on the tier list (obviously more than +1)? Or is it possible for someone like Ike to remain in the same spot?

It is all hypothetical.


Also, do you guys think they'll lock this discussion after the poll reaches its closing?


Just a curiosity.

Ike will most probably remain in the same spot.

Yes, they probably will.

 

[link2702]

I hope so. He WON'T get banned since pro-ban didn't get sufficient vote percentage.

All of the important things that have been said have already been said from both sides and everyone is starting to repeat themselves to the point where both pro and anti are sounding like a broken record.

The results of this poll will count towards the SBR decision. One vote will be added for the side that reaches majority and an additional vote for every 2.5% past 50%.

part of the reason the pro side hasnt got so much vote percentage is cuz alot of the anti ban sides started creating alts like mad to boost up the votes, OR they grabbed people from the melee scene, to boost up their votes(i know the pro ban side probably had folks creating alts too to try and boost their votes as well, but I doubt it was to the the extent that the anti ban probably has.)

 

[Espy Rose]

Then Meta Knight gets unbanned, everyone has forgotten the matchup with him because they didn't care about him and the whole fuss starts from the very beginning.

That's silly, and you should feel silly for honestly believing that that would happen, and would impact the community in any way that's not some minor issue.

 

[Alus]

part of the reason the pro side hasnt got so much vote percentage is cuz alot of the anti ban sides started creating alts like mad to boost up the votes, OR they grabbed people from the melee scene, to boost up their votes(i know the pro ban side probably had folks creating alts too to try and boost their votes as well, but I doubt it was to the the extent that the anti ban probably has.)

LOL what...

You guys are all dumb for thinking that this poll would be taking that far...

i hope...

 

[Syde7]

I agree with the valid, and well-written points each side has taken the time and energy to write out to support their arguments. That is to say, I think BOTH sides make a good argument, although I wound up voting "pro-ban" based off of the points they made, as well as some personal observations.

On the subject of over-centralization:

1) Take a look at most of the character boards. Usually, when starting a matchup discussion/re-discussion thread, Metaknight is far and away the usual "first character" chosen. While I can concede that one can argue that this is because he is the "best & most used character" and that "everyone needs to know the matchup", that alone should say SOMETHING about the current metagame. While in and of itself it is a trivial, cloudy point at best- when combined with other things (listed below) it becomes more readily apparent that the metagame IS revolving around MK.

2) A fair bit ago, there was a big uproar about the 'broken-ness' of tornado, so much so that M2K actually wrote an article/guide/whatever on the moves that BEAT the tornado. To my knowledge, during my time in the smash community there has never been such emphasis on "beating" ONE move. Even now, during "How to deal with (insert move)" threads on various character boards, the tornado is usually the first or nearly the first one used.

3) Every time anything new that is found (chaingrabs, infinites, locks, glitchy character buffs), the first question is "Does it work on Metaknight?". Not "does it work on this char's WORST matchup" (which may or may not be MK).

4) As said before, it appears that the tier list is reflective of how well said character does against MK. And, this is a double-edged point. With MK being the most used character (and if any other char were the most used, the same would still apply) it makes sense intuitively to base character rankings on how well they perform against him. "Oh, well, character X gets ***** by character Y, but... you never see character Y because he is essentially non-viable thanks to MK, and so we'll put character X a bit higher up on the tier list".

Inversely though, I was under the impression that the tier lists were comprised of tournament performance and analyzing where/how the character's individual metagame fits in with the game's metagame as a whole, among other things. The fact that MK has *become* the metagame to some degree, has turned it into a "how well does Character X do in tourneys, and how well does Character X do against MK"

People point to Wario, Diddy, Snake, and a few other chars to strengthen BOTH sides of this argument:

Anti-Ban: "Well, they would be that high up if MK were banned anyway, because they have these bad/good matchups and have these good/bad things going for them"

And, I personally am not arguing that they would still be high up on the list. Some may rise, or fall. However, its important to see why they would be there in the event MK was banned. Generally, the big 'Selling Point' for these chars is their performance against MK (you can't argue that people didn't flock to Wario or Diddy or ICs the moment it was purported that they went even/close to even with him). However, if MK is banned, they would hang around their same tier placement for OTHER reasons. And of course, they may move up/down as more emphasis is placed on characters learning those SET of matchups instead of just one.


On The Subject Of "Quit Crying and Get Better Scrubs"

I think that it is safe to say that people HAVE been trying to get better. The time and effort people have put into analyzing the MK matchup should be PLENTY enough evidence to support the concerted effort of the community to "get better". In essence, the former point leads to this one: If MK *HASN'T* been over-centralizing the game, then WHY has there been so much concerted effort to find ways to BEAT him. And, the fact that such time and effort has been put into finding ways to beat him directly translates to people TRYING TO GET BETTER.

Also, the former point leads to this one: there HAS been such an effort to "find a way to beat Metaknight" that some people (individually), and some groups/character boards altogether have become unfocused on their other matchups. This leads to a lack of knowledge of said MU all across the board (some more than others) and can lead to players boxing themselves in and getting bracket-blocked by characters they shouldn't.

Ex: Members in character board A (who gets utterly ***** by MK) have focused a lot of time talking about Metaknight and how to deal with/beat him and such. Character board B (who gets beaten by MK, but to a lesser degree) has expended effort on the same subject, but markedly less than character board A. Now, character B user has a far greater understanding of the matchup against character A than does character A user. The result? Character A user loses a MU he SHOULD win, simply by not knowing the matchup due to the time spent analyzing the MK matchup.

The above both stagnates the player, and the character to a certain degree. They may get marginally better at the MK matchup, but it comes with a trade-off of getting better overall (usually). Like someone a few posts ago said concerning a temp ban of MK (and I am paraphrasing, I apologize if I get it grossly wrong, I'm just shooting to get the same gist) "If you ban MK for 6 months, then everyone will forget how to fight him, and all this arguing will start again". Having MK around has already DONE that, but to other MUs. Other characters have "forgotten how" to play against other chars because MKs dominance/overuse/superiority/whateveryouwanttocallit has more or less "banned" ("banned" used for illustrative purposes, and used loosely) some of these chars in tournament play.



On The Subject Of Character Diversity:

While character diversity is a moot point in terms of competitive play, I feel that it should be mentioned as its a point that people have addressed.

Should MK be banned Snake would be the best.
-->ROB goes even with Snake
---->GaW counters ROB pretty hard
------->GaW is countered hard by Snake
-->Olimar does well against Snake
----->Marth counters Olimar
-------->Marth countered by DeDeDe
-------->Marth countered by Snake

And it goes on and on and on. We get the "triangle counter" system from melee, but with a wider array of characters turning it into a counter system similar in structure to a color wheel. Because of this, tournament placings will be more diverse, and the char portraits by people's names won't be "main/MK", but instead "Main/odd secondary/odd tertiary" or "Main/whatev"


On The Subject Of MK is beatable

It has more or less been beaten to death; MK is a **** good character in the game of Super Smash Brothers Brawl. He is "designed" (I use the term loosely to mean the "standard things which we can't change" as well as "discoveries" we as the community have made concerning him) to counter almost every possible situation.

He has a plethora of recovery options (multiple jumps, drill rush, cape, glide, shuttleloop, shuttleloop glide, tornado) to neutralize gimping. You generally will not gimp a MK unless he messes up or you take a very high risk course of action, because generally speaking no character has the tools to do it consistently.

He has a superb gimping game (disjointed & fast F-air, D-air, U-air, SL that can kill at around 60%, U-air chain to tornado for early KOs + the recovery options to make it back to the stage safely) to neutralize superb recovery options.

He lives much longer than his weight should allow when momentum cancelling/DI are taken into account. The "weight to percent KO'd" ratio, if I were to hazard a guess is superior to any character which neutralizes the built in trade off between maneuverability/small size vs ability to live.

He even "breaks" (to a minimal degree) the more or less standard "lightweights can't outright KO well" with his D-smash, F-smash, Shuttleloop to some degree, and even U-tilt if its fresh and the two are on a high platform. Couple that with the gimping + recovery, and MK has no problems netting kills.

MK has the ability to be incredibly offensive in a very defensive game, and his offensive options are generally much safer.

MK does not have a projectile, but his small stature, multiple jumps, option to powershield (universally available) and overall speed make getting around most projectiles child's play. In essence, he trumps projectiles (a generally defensive tactic) with his offense. The only exceptions I can think of are grenades, bananas, and (Falco) lasers.

Put all of this together, and you get a VERY, VERY good character. I concede that MK is beatable, but he is beatable not because of one character having implicit advantages over him, but because the player using MK has to make a mistake. To me, the character is designed as "perfectly" (in terms of being designed to be dominant) as one could hope for.
...
...
Flipping the script for a moment and moving from a "character only" assessment to the application.

The players who play MK are beatable, which is evidenced by tourney placings. But, as Fiction mentioned in his blog entries and such: MK *generally* only loses to MK. Out of each tournament, look at the well-known+top+better than mediocre MK players and see how many times they were either sent to loser's or out of the tourney by an MK, either by losing to an MK once, or twice in dittos.

You will occasionally see a well-known MK losing to a char that he should destroy, but we only see the posted result in text form, and not the match itself in its entirety ("real life" things that may affect the player). Was thehe MK player could have been playing badly? Or was the opponent playing exceptionally well? Did the MK player SD at a low percent? A myriad of things can explain this. And, I do not want to come across as applying these external aspects to strengthen the "pro-ban" argument. I concede that the SAME could be said for the player who LOSES to the MK player. But, in a MU that is 70-30, if the disadvantaged character user wins, it deserves more scrutiny and analyzing than if the advantaged one won- simply because it went against the norm. There needs to be assessment to see what caused that "blip" in the norm, to see if it was some sort of applicable, tangible evidence or something more abstract and irreplicable.


On The Subject Of "Ally/M2K"

Really, this in and of itself is somewhat enigmatic. While I realize that these two players are operating at the peak of the current metagame (and to some degree evolving it with each match they play), it is still hard to separate the player from the character. Ally has beaten legit people with Captain Falcon, does that mean Captain Falcon is suddenly leagues better than the matchup discussions and assessments make him out to be? No. He beat them because he is a vastly superior player. M2K has wrecked low-tier tourneys using Ike against low-tier mains. Does that mean Ike vs _______ is now in his favor, or even? No. M2k was simply a far superior player.

Of course, this begs the question of: "Then shouldn't the better player win, regardless if the other person is using MK?" Not really. Person A may be better than Person B, by a value of "5" (I know, assigning values to something that abstract is silly, but its for illustrative purposes). But, in order to 'overcome' the matchup, where Character X beats character Y by a value of 8, then Player A will not win. He is still better than the opponent, but not "better enough". Of course, this is the nature of character matchups, and is in no way exclusive to MK. However, one can usually improve by picking up another character, stage counterpicking, or actually GETTING BETTER. This isn't applicable with MK (refer to "...get better scrubs") as it has been tried, and tried, and tried.

Back to the point at hand, to surmise: MK being beaten depends more on the MK player messing up than it has to do with the tools the characters have to deal with MK. That isn't a bad thing, if it were applicable across the board so that every char could only beat another char if they outplayed the user. It isn't. MK is the only character that affords the player the ability to play with more mistakes, sloppier, and not as well, and allow them to beat 3/4 of the other viable chars who play a near perfect game. As such, MK losing to someone OTHER than MK is a "blip" in the graph, and these blips need to be analyzed, and are often times done so with no tangible explanation and so it is labeled as "so and so was playing CRAZY GOOD, or so and so was playing poorly, or this happened, or that happened, etc"

Pointing to Ally/M2k as an example for either side is, imo, folly. Because, while they are playing at an obscene level, it is clear that 98% of the players (even regular/well-known) tournament attendees will never reach this level, for a myriad of reasons.


On The Subject Of Comparing Games To Find A Standard:

Let's face it... Smash was not designed to be competitive. We, the community made it as such. Therefore, we simply can not apply criteria used to assess what is/isn't banworthy from other games to this situation.

As much as the community WANTS to be taken seriously by other communities, it really isn't going to happen, regardless of whether MK is or isn't banned- simply because of what the franchise was originally (and still is) designed to be.

Deciding our ban criteria; be it character's, techniques, stages, rulesets... whatever- with any inkling of "What will the SF/GG/insertcommunityhere" in mind is absolutely ridiculous. We are attempting to make a decision that is the best for our community, not what is best for our community's image in the eyes of other communities, and I sincerely hope that the decision is made with that in mind.

 

[Red Arremer]

part of the reason the pro side hasnt got so much vote percentage is cuz alot of the anti ban sides started creating alts like mad to boost up the votes, OR they grabbed people from the melee scene, to boost up their votes(i know the pro ban side probably had folks creating alts too to try and boost their votes as well, but I doubt it was to the the extent that the anti ban probably has.)

Just like the pro ban side had a ton of people voting for the ban simply "because of the lulz" or "to see what M2K mains if he does get banned", etc., and some of them even posted in here stating that.

Saying that this is one-sided is stupid, since both sides are at fault at having biased, stupid, or trollish votes crippling it.
There is no way to tell if it's tilted in either way. So stop making conspiracy theories.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

part of the reason the pro side hasnt got so much vote percentage is cuz alot of the anti ban sides started creating alts like mad to boost up the votes, OR they grabbed people from the melee scene, to boost up their votes(i know the pro ban side probably had folks creating alts too to try and boost their votes as well, but I doubt it was to the the extent that the anti ban probably has.)

are you trolling

 

[MarKO X]

I forgot Sandbagging
since there doesnt seem to be any raging debate about us yet;
anyone care to start us off with some deliciously angry pet peeve about meta knight, that you TRUELY believe is numb mindlingly broken and stupid?

uair.
one way or another, it forces you to get *****.

 

[infomon]

Dull_Razer, most of your over-centralization points are the natural result of the game having a best character. But just because MK is the best character doesn't really mean anything.

Also: "you can't argue that people didn't flock to Wario or Diddy or ICs the moment it was purported that they went even/close to even with him"

ummm what
MK has almost always been known to be IC's worst matchup
without MK, I don't know what would stop them lolol
(ninja-edit: well, snake lol end-edit)
and i don't think ppl are really flocking to Wario, but I could be wrong.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

uair.
one way or another, it forces you to get *****.

surely i was most certain you could come up with Dair,Nado,SL as much more annoying examples

can you not also DI out of uair juggles depending on your % weight?

 

[Red Arremer]

ummm what
MK has almost always been known to be IC's worst matchup
without MK, I don't know what would stop them lolol
(ninja-edit: well, snake lol end-edit)
and i don't think ppl are really flocking to Wario, but I could be wrong.

No, Meta Knight and Ice Climbers are pretty much even - a little stage dependant here, but basically even.

And no, people aren't really flocking to Wario, as far as I know.

 

[Alus]

Why are people so interested in making this game more diverse than it is now?

And how do you make a game that is not intended for competitive play, competitive, if there is no competitive standard?

 

[Syde7]

Dull_Razer, most of your over-centralization points are the natural result of the game having a best character. But just because MK is the best character doesn't really mean anything.

Also: "you can't argue that people didn't flock to Wario or Diddy or ICs the moment it was purported that they went even/close to even with him"

ummm what
MK has almost always been known to be IC's worst matchup
without MK, I don't know what would stop them lolol
(ninja-edit: well, snake lol end-edit)
and i don't think ppl are really flocking to Wario, but I could be wrong.

I was more or less using the instance of where Lain managed to beat M2k... immediately afterward there was a lot of people that I personally knew who were like "Hey, maybe ICs are onto something" and since then (maybe before) it has been considered close to even.

As I mentioned, I concede a fair part of the overcentralization aspect is applicable *because* he is the best char, but when combined with the other aspects mentioned it creates a fuller picture. Essentially, it is the sume of the parts.

 

[infomon]

The "intent" of the game is irrelevant. It is a competitive game, and we have longstanding convention for a general ruleset that prevents degeneracy (items off, and stageban where required).

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Why are people so interested in making this game more diverse than it is now?

And how do you make a game that is not intended for competitive play, competitive, if there is no competitive standard?

I'm not sure if Melee was intented to be competitive. It just happened.

jk, Chuck Norris played Melee.

 

[Syde7]

The "intent" of the game is irrelevant. It is a competitive game, and we have longstanding convention for a general ruleset that prevents degeneracy (items off, and stageban where required).

I assume you were adressing the post a few posts up that wasn't mine... but I want to reply to this too, by saying I totally agree. We made it a competitive game, and the rules we created to govern it are independent to smash, which is why I said that since the rules were developed "solely for smash, with smash in mind" that longstanding convention of looking at THIS game should still stand. Take pointers/ideas from other games, but by no means create standards based solely on those other games.

 

[MarKO X]

surely i was most certain you could come up with Dair,Nado,SL as much more annoying examples

can you not also DI out of uair juggles depending on your % weight?

i was talking about how uair ***** airdodges.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i was talking about how uair ***** airdodges.

ahhhhhhhhh now we're on the same page!

go on

 

[Exceladon City]

surely i was most certain you could come up with Dair,Nado,SL as much more annoying examples

can you not also DI out of uair juggles depending on your % weight?

Uair typically baits airdodges which equals a shuttle loop opportunity, which also leads to you being offstage and then you get gimped. It's a vicious cycle.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Uair typically baits airdodges which equals a shuttle loop opportunity, which also leads to you being offstage and then you get gimped. It's a vicious cycle.

this is why i prefer the ground....

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

All the debate is fine and dandy, but seriously, accusing the other side of unfair voting tactics is as low as you can get.

Have some decency people. Thanks.

 

[WhiteOblv]

This thing is still goin on? My god its been a week when will this be over.

 

[CR4SH]

the midwest is flocking to wario

 

[Exceladon City]

this is why i prefer the ground....

MK's Mach Nado, Uthrow and Shuttle Loop says Hi.

 

[Atlus8]

Justin Waaaaaang!

 

[Dark 3nergy]

MK's Mach Nado, Uthrow and Shuttle Loop says Hi.

my timely shields and spot dodges also say hi
















that is when im not being ********

 

[Exceladon City]

my timely shields and spot dodges also say hi

Once again Mach Nado says "Hi". You'll get shieldpoked eventually and you can't spotdodge a Mach Nado. If ROB can't do it DDD sure as hell can't.

 

[Clai]

For anyone that has gripes about stalling and planking or still believes that TO's put rules such as the ledge grab rule or the ban planking rule just to keep MK from being broken, I suggest you read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=243472

I made it a new thread because stalling and planking are going to be issues long after this debate about MK gets finished with.