Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Red Arremer]

I just meant in general that no one really bothers to learn Peach because she's owned by the game's most dominant character, even though without MK, the game would benefit from Peach being used.

4 Peach mains in the SBR who also place well are inclined to disagree.

 

[Suspect]

People only deserve to have a character name next to theres (if only used once) if they used that character cause they felt they NEEDED to.

Totally different with someone going falcon just to embarrass a scrub.

 

[:mad:]

Diddy's always gonna be top 8, because the entire tournament is just full of Diddy dittos.

Name those 4 Peaches? I didn't know any of them placed well. News to me. Sky is only in the Broom because of his commentary. Truefax.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

4 Peach mains in the SBR who also place well are inclined to disagree.

They don't place well at big tournaments, but had one gone to WHOBO, that might not have been true given the abundance of Diddy players. Peach has the potential to keep Diddy in check, as does Luigi. These characters haven't really had a chance to grow though.

You can't seriously be arguing that Diddy "dominating" would be in any way similar to MK dominating when Diddy has counters that would be otherwise tourney viable in an MK-less metagame, right?

 

[Kinzer]

I just meant in general that no one really bothers to learn Peach because she's owned by the game's most dominant character, even though without MK, the game would benefit from Peach being used.

I don't think a character having one or a couple of reasonably disadvantaged (I don't wanna hear anybody telling/countering me with "Ganon being viable with a couple!") is going to stop developing.

A.K.A. you better learn about Wario/Diddy as top tier, and I know there are other character that have made big jumps, Sonic/Peach/Olimar/(ZSS?) to name a few.

 

[Red Arremer]

Name those 4 Peaches? I didn't know any of them placed well. News to me. Sky is only in the Broom because of his commentary. Truefax.

Praxis does well in his area.
KOS-MOS does well in general, so does Edreeses.
Sky - yea, maybe you're right.

It still was mainly meant to be poking fun at holes in Pro-Ban's argument.

 

[Zajice]

People here are all joking about Diddy. I don't think anybody here is actually serious about him "dominating."

And I agree with people like Peach not really getting to grow, actually.



Yikes. I got a spam warning in here. Less joking, more serious. >_>

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lee Martin used Meta Knight in one single match at WHOBO, too, and still got marked as Meta Knight in the Top 8.
If you do it for Meta Knight, do it for Diddy, too.



I disagree here.
There's 5 Diddys in this tournament's Top 8. That's not much diversity if you ask me.

I also disagree on the matchups, but that's subjective.



She's getting wrecked by Meta Knight in a Meta Knight-banned tournament...?
Logic?

1. But look at Metaknight's history though. As I said, most Metaknight tournaments are usually 4 Metaknights, 2 Snakes, and two being a combination of either a random high tier character, a wild card character (like FOW with Ness), or both. This tournament was two Diddys, a Snake, a Lucario, a Marth (without a secondary I might add), a Diddy/Kirby comination, and a Diddy/!!YOSHI!!/Dedede combination.

2. Again, four with two of them using other characters.

3. Well then that's your problem now isn't it?

4. She's saying that Peach did bad because nobody plays as her at the moment BECAUSE Metaknight ***** her. As said before, she's Diddy's worst match up despite it mostly only being known by Diddy and Peach players.

 

[Suspect]

spadefox, i didn't say what you quoted

>_>

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't think a character having one or a couple of reasonably disadvantaged (I don't wanna hear anybody telling/countering me with "Ganon being viable with a couple!") is going to stop developing.

A.K.A. you better learn about Wario/Diddy as top tier, and I know there are other character that have made big jumps, Sonic/Peach/Olimar/(ZSS?) to name a few.

All of those characters were never that bad to begin with. As a matter of fact, most of them had some really weird/bad/underrated facet that made their more subtle strengths less obvious so they were overlooked. In the case of ZSS, she was "ALL SIDE B AND TETHER RECOVERY LOL" for the first year of the game and is only now starting to actually develop. Olimar is similar, "lol tether" without looking at any of his other strengths. I suspect Link will one day have a similar movement, but not for a while.

Anyway, the point is those characters were never bad, just perceived that way because of ignorance/misinformation.

It still was mainly meant to be poking fun at holes in Pro-Ban's argument.

Doing a poor job as usual

 

[Red Arremer]

spadefox, i didn't say what you quoted

>_>

Whoops, I wanted to respond to you in the first place, discarded the response and deleted your quote, but accidentally left the redirection to your posting there instead to Straked's.

 

[Kinzer]

Zajice, you shouldn't be getting infracted for even being a little bit silly, so long as your post contains something pertaining to the main topic.

Like this:

All of those characters were never that bad to begin with. As a matter of fact, most of them had some really weird/bad/underrated facet that made their more subtle strengths less obvious so they were overlooked. In the case of ZSS, she was "ALL SIDE B AND TETHER RECOVERY LOL" for the first year of the game and is only now starting to actually develop. Olimar is similar, "lol tether" without looking at any of his other strengths. I suspect Link will one day have a similar movement, but not for a while.

Anyway, the point is those characters were never bad, just perceived that way because of ignorance/misinformation.

So then what's the problem here? characters are still doing well, and it's not like MK has 100-0s MUs on everybody to the point where it literally is "pick MK or lose", so the MK can still legit lose... even if it's only X amount of times less than the other characters with X being any number that isn't 50 or or better; or in the ratio system even, but then that's natural selection isn't it?

Like how only humans can kill other humans the most, while other top tier predators such as lions/sharks/blah blah kill humans less. Bad analogy but I hope you can see where I'm going with this/the comparisons.

As for misinformation/judgment... then that's something that will be corrected with as time goes on by.

 

[Fatmanonice]

All of those characters were never that bad to begin with. As a matter of fact, most of them had some really weird/bad/underrated facet that made their more subtle strengths less obvious so they were overlooked. In the case of ZSS, she was "ALL SIDE B AND TETHER RECOVERY LOL" for the first year of the game and is only now starting to actually develop. Olimar is similar, "lol tether" without looking at any of his other strengths. I suspect Link will one day have a similar movement, but not for a while.

Anyway, the point is those characters were never bad, just perceived that way because of ignorance/misinformation.

Doing a poor job as usual

Not to be rude but it will be a miracle if Link ever develops past what he is right now. ZSS has two methods of recovery and a decent second jump while Olimar has one of the best second jumps in the game. Link is just plagued with a God awful offstage game. Terrible second jump and the worst recovery move in the game. Get him offstage with someone like Kirby or King Dedede and he's essentially SOL. Even with Metaknight gone, he has so many bad match ups that it's doubtful that he'll ever move out of bottom tier unless something is found that radically improves his recovery.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

So then what's the problem here? characters are still doing well, and it's not like MK has 100-0s MUs on everybody to the point where it literally is "pick MK or lose", so the MK can still legit lose... even if it's only X amount of times less than the other characters with X being any number that isn't 50 or in the ratio system even, but then that's natural selection isn't it?

Like how only humans can kill other humans the most, while other top tier predators such as lions/sharks/blah blah kill humans less. Bad analogy but I hope you can see where I'm going with this/the comparisons.

As for misinformation/judgment... then that's something that will be corrected with as time goes on by.

You make a good point, I just don't think those particular characters were good examples because they never really were thought to have bad MK match-ups. I know ZSS pretty well, so I'll say that our best players flip-flop on the match-up a lot because the top MK players aren't really playing against the top ZSS players very often these days. In theory, he should barely have an advantage at all, and in the few instances where top ZSS players have played good MK, it has been pretty even. But that could be any number of things at work.

HOWEVER, overall, ZSS has ALWAYS had an evenish match-up against MK, even when people thought she was bad. Even before Snakeee wow'd people at ECRC last year with his ZSS, the general consensus was that, that match-up was roughly even.

So it isn't as though these characters suddenly had match-up changing discoveries, they just evolved separately from MK.

Not to be rude but it will be a miracle if Link ever develops past what he is right now. ZSS has two methods of recovery and a decent second jump while Olimar has one of the best second jumps in the game. Link is just plagued with a God awful offstage game. Terrible second jump and the worst recovery move in the game. Get him offstage with someone like Kirby or King Dedede and he's essentially SOL. Even with Metaknight gone, he has so many bad match ups that it's doubtful that he'll ever move out of bottom tier unless something is found that radically improves his recovery.

I don't know about that. There are certain Link mains that make Link look not only viable, but good. Like mid tier good.

I don't mean to derail, but there's way more to recovery than your jump and up+b. Link lives forever. Like, forever. And gimping him is much easier said than done. He'll always have to live with certain characters who are capable of owning the crap out of his recovery, but the reality is that most characters actually can't and that his match-ups are considered to be bad for reasons other than that, reasons that could change with time.

 

[Kinzer]

People have learned how to play as Master Hand in Melee.

Although very, very, VERY improbable, things can change.

Edit: Mostly directed at FMOI, I've nothing special to say about SFP's post.

 

[Red Arremer]

People have learned how to play as Master Hand in Melee.

Without hacks, I might add.

 

[Zajice]

No infractions. Just a warning.


And I honestly don't see Link doing much better either. Maybe he'll get higher in the last tier, but not more than that. Link makes me sad. He's never been good in any smash game.

But I will always use him anyway.

 

[Fatmanonice]

People have learned how to play as Master Hand in Melee.

Although very, very, VERY improbable, things can change.

Master Hand isn't used in competitive play and he was discovered 8 years after Melee was released and 2 years after Melee's peak. I don't know about you but I don't think the community can stand to wait another 2-3 years just to find a way to counter Metaknight.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No infractions. Just a warning.


And I honestly don't see Link doing much better either. Maybe he'll get higher in the last tier, but not more than that. Link makes me sad. He's never been good in any smash game.

But I will always use him anyway.

Link has more potential than any character in bottom tier by a clear mile. He's at least high low tier, maybe mid tier.

I'm sure you guys have seen Legan play, but if you haven't you should really check him out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Dwyw-HNRs

 

[Kinzer]

Warnings, infractions, it's all the same thing, the difference is the severity of the punishment, and you're doing it wrong if you're regretting your trolling/getting caught/ being punished for having your fun.

Also Spadefox, thanks, I forgot that you could hack Melee to play him. :X

Hmm... what else... uhm... oh you know, I got tired of trying to legit argue in this thread the moment I wanted to say anything more than "anti-ban" and I have my reasons as to why I believe MK needs to stay, but if I didn't hold back on my opinion I would probably get flamed/infracted/shed some bad blood, and I'd rather not do that... I'll just correct when/where needed.

Edit:@ FMOI- if people can play this game gay and time people out by planking/air-camping, I think they can wait for something to happen, and everybody (well most anyone anyway) would be happy to see an AT that works against MK and can't backfire/work into his favor/be used by him as well.

I was also giving an example by saying how ATs/glitches can be found in the most wierdest of places and for no apparent reason/inspiration. I don't know of any AT that was found and game-changing to the point where it became standard play, unless you count things like WDing and L-Canceling in Melee. I'm sure you get the jest.

 

[Uffe]

No infractions. Just a warning.


And I honestly don't see Link doing much better either. Maybe he'll get higher in the last tier, but not more than that. Link makes me sad. He's never been good in any smash game.

But I will always use him anyway.

I can't say I really see any problems with him other than his recovery. I've seen some pretty good Link mains and they make him look better than people make him out to be.

 

[Zajice]

I regret nothing.

I just don't want infractions. >_>

Link has more potential than any character in bottom tier by a clear mile. He's at least high low tier, maybe mid tier.

I'm sure you guys have seen Legan play, but if you haven't you should really check him out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Dwyw-HNRs

I think you're giving Link too much credit. I don't see mid tier anywhere in his future. His recovery is just to horrible.

On stage he does pretty decent. Off stage and he's as good as dead.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Again, his total recovery package is really only slightly below average. His MC and weight make his DI broken. Link players regularly live to over 200%, even bad/average ones, lol.

Also, I'm OK with being a little optimistic. Someone around here has to be the guy who doesn't take everything at face value.

 

[SuSa]

Link's craptastic recovery is the only reason why he is so low IMO.... get rid of Falco/D3/MK/anyone who can reliably get him offstage, hit him once with a sourspot aerial/spike and recover, then MAYBE he'd be mid tier.

 

[Kinzer]

Why are we talking about Link unless he's a (potential) MK counter to have moar reason to say "get ***** pro-ban?" >.>

Eh, but it's okay I guess, we all need some flavor in this topic, or this just gets mad boring, I know how it is.

You know, I like Link, and I think he's pretty decent onstage, but offstage he's the only character where I stop to think "wow I feel so sorry for this guy trying to recover, do I really want to go out there and gimp him so effortlessly? >.> :/ :l "

 

[Zajice]

SuSa basically summed up my entire take on Link.


And that's a large list of things that would need to be gone.


@Kinzer
This thread is mostly random discussion with some MK banning thrown in here and there.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He's still worlds better than Captain Falcon.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ Kinzer:

With things like Brawl+ becoming more popular and it recently being discovered how to edit and hack characters' movesets, I seriously doubt it. Brawl's metagame has slowed to a crawl and the last major practical discovery being dash canceled up smash which only works for a few characters and was discovered last Spring. Thinking that people will remain interested in this game past 2010 in the current state is a bit too optimistic in my opinion. As a member of and competitor in the online community, I'm not worried a bit due to all the developments that we've had with hacking (some suggest that online Brawl might become the next Mugen) but am concerned of the future of offline vBrawl thanks to the lack of developments you all have had.

@ SMFP:

Oh and Jigglypuff too. Now THAT'S a character that Sakurai royally screwed over.

 

[Uffe]

@Kinzer
This thread is mostly random discussion with some MK banning thrown in here and there.

I have to agree with SuSa. Also, Kinzer, the who MK banning is getting nowhere as far as I'm concerned because we keep spewing the same crap over and over again. Might as well talk about something else.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I hate to make this comparison, but it isn't that weird for fighting games to remain unbroken for several years. Melee was weird, Brawl is closer to the norm.

 

[Kinzer]

Eww, Lag-Fi?

Eh well, won't get into that.

As for development, I can't speak for everybody but you're right about development standing to a crawl. At least general development anyway, I'm sure character development is quite alive for some character (there is no hope for the likes of Ganon and Jigglypuff). Certain other characters also have some reward to playing and a big enough learning cure where you want to keep coming back for more but short enouhh where even if you're not a super computer you can still do well enough (Sonic being the most vivid example to me, I'm sure Snake mains can tell you the same thing about their character when I think of biggest reward to learning curve ratio)

Development coming to a crawl might also be because people are losing interest because all people want to think about is winning and making this game more unbarable than it needs to be... honestly if you know anybody who is famous for this then pity anybody who has/are/will be around them... At least I know I would immedietly lose interest of suddenly all of Vegassmash learned to pick up Game & Watch and camp me all day long, I know I don't want to have to put up with it, and I don't know how the people behind those annoyingly annoying (lol) strategies do it honestly. I know I have the choice to do it, but I can't see myself going out of my way to make this game more ******** for not only the opponent but myself... 8 minutes per game of doing the same junk over and over again... are you kidding me?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I hate to make this comparison, but it isn't that weird for fighting games to remain unbroken for several years. Melee was weird, Brawl is closer to the norm.

Melee was very weird because the mechanics in Melee that became the core of competitive play weren't intentionally put in the game by the developers. With that being said, despite Melee becoming very comparable to other major fighting games, it wasn't made like that on purpose. You also have to consider that the Melee community was maybe less than a quarter of what the current Brawl community is when it first started out so things were discovered at a much slower pace. For example, Shiek was as dominant as Metaknight for a time and it took the community about 10 months to discover shield grabbing which knocked her down a peg. Now look at the Brawl community. Despite being probably five times larger then the early Melee community, it has been a year and two months and we still haven't found a dependable way to counter Metaknight. Throw ontop of that that Brawl definately has less mechanics than Melee did and you can see what this is a problem.

It pains me to say it each time that I do but Brawl is very shallow compared to other fighting games which is why any major breakthroughs are very unlikely unless something drastically changes. The closest thing we've had to a major discovery that would have made the game much more competitive was the infinite ground jump like what Bowser can do with his flying slam claw (B smash). It would have eliminated camping, made chaingrabs/infinites much harder to pull off, and grab releases and ledgecamping obsolete but, unfortunately, it was decided by the community that it was way too hard to do so people stopped researching it.

 

[etecoon]

Diddy Kong could easily be better than Snake. Guess which player who is widely considered to be the best player in the world agrees with me?

has M2K even said this recently? I remember months ago he said something to the effect of "I think diddy, olimar, pikachu, wario, squirtle, and falco are better than snake", this was before ally started giving him such a hard time though, I think he may have refined that point of view. and he actually said that he thinks diddy could be the best character in the game, and I'm pretty sure no one agrees with that...

aside from banana exp it should be noted that diddy is the one pulling the banana's, you only get to use them against him if he lets you, but any little mistake can be catastrophic for diddy, I think diddy played near perfectly could be MK/Snake material but he has so, so much less room for error.

I'm throwing marth into this discussion because I think he's underrated, losing to MK worst and having few active top players hurts him, I think he's better than diddy...no one is taking snake/wario's 2 and 3 spots though IMO, maybe IC's but like no one plays them...I think that's top 4 if MK were ever banned though(obviously he isn't going to be now, this topic is pointless and should be locked)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bowser's IDJ is a piece of cake to do. How could it be too hard? I also don't see how stuff like that would stop CGs/make camping harder.

 

[bobson]

The closest thing we've had to a major discovery that would have made the game much more competitive was the infinite ground jump like what Bowser can do with his flying slam claw (B smash). It would have eliminated camping, made chaingrabs/infinites much harder to pull off, and grab releases and ledgecamping obsolete but, unfortunately, it was decided by the community that it was way too hard to do so people stopped researching it.

In no plausible universe would everyone using the infinite double jump have done any of that. What are you smoking?

 

[Scipion121212]

Bowser's IDJ is a piece of cake to do. How could it be too hard? I also don't see how stuff like that would stop CGs/make camping harder.

I think he meant infinite double jump with aerials (all characters can do that, snake for example with B-air) but I am not sure. Its hard as **** though.

 

[Sosuke]

I find that kind of stuff really easy, tbh. Once you get the timing down for a move it pretty much comes naturally.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol gl doing that **** w/ falco's lasers comin' at you.

 

[Master Raven]

I'm real late but uh

Fatal is another top North-East Snake.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Melee was very weird because the mechanics in Melee that became the core of competitive play weren't intentionally put in the game by the developers.

some developers intentionally leave their software open ended in the game to allow AT's or glitches to exist. If you ever played Black and White 1 the developers left the tattoo portion of the game real open ended so that anyone with photoshop could literally design a 60x60 tattoo png and place it in a certain file [overriding an existing design], load the game and wham they can use their own tattoo on their creature.

I also believe melee being as good as it was competitively, was just a mistake from the developers stand point--due to them leaving their software so open ended + the game engine itself