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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


  • Total voters
    3,010
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

MorphedChaos

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
1,231
Location
CT / United States
I don't want Meta Knight to be banned because an incredible amount of people will be upset as a result, especially every single person who plays Meta Knight because they like him as a character, and those who have been playing Meta Knight since the game came out. As well as everyone who feels very strongly against banning him. Such a large amount of people will no doubt segregate themselves from the rest of the community, running their own tournaments and disregarding the other half's opinions on matters.
You could think of it this way too...

Because of MK, people who want to play the characters they love can't play them, and have to play MK or Snake or other high tier characters.

Hm.... You know, I personally think the tier list is all about MK. I mean, look at snake. Hes no. 2 because hes called the 'MK counter', he is also no. 2 because MK scares off the characters that counter him. Wario is No. 3 because he has a decent matchup vs MK as well as having a good matchup vs Snake and Falco. Falco is no. 4 because he has a decent time with MK as well. Same for Diddy at no. 5. D3 has the no. 6 spot just due to how well matchups can go for him, and he doesn't have too bad of a time vs MK.

Maybe the Tier list itself is centered around MK, as Snake would drop down a few spots with more DKs, D3s, Pikas, and other characters that MK gets rid of. Sonic might go up a few spots with his big counter gone, as well as Marth.

(Note that each character listed is at a disadvantage to MK, but some more then others.)
 

Thunderbolt333

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
168
Location
NC
whhhhoooaaaa you found it out dude^^
so to prevent that all competitve player kills each outher we must.........kill sakurai!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad::mad::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::chuckle::chuckle:
10agrees.We should have a poll to ban sakurai from touching the next smash game.
 

JUDGE

Smash Lord
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
1,015
vote for banning sakurai^^muhahaha^^

@morphed chaos

hmmm.... this is an interresting point of view my friend^^
 

PolMex23

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
2,536
Location
Passion Central
Hippie your the ****ing man!!!! Luigis are the ****ing best, no doubt. Mario bros in general (Much love to Marios and Docs). Including the fat ***.

You could think of it this way too...

Because of MK, people who want to play the characters they love can't play them, and have to play MK or Snake or other high tier characters.

Hm.... You know, I personally think the tier list is all about MK. I mean, look at snake. Hes no. 2 because hes called the 'MK counter', he is also no. 2 because MK scares off the characters that counter him. Wario is No. 3 because he has a decent matchup vs MK as well as having a good matchup vs Snake and Falco. Falco is no. 4 because he has a decent time with MK as well. Same for Diddy at no. 5. D3 has the no. 6 spot just due to how well matchups can go for him, and he doesn't have too bad of a time vs MK.

Maybe the Tier list itself is centered around MK, as Snake would drop down a few spots with more DKs, D3s, Pikas, and other characters that MK gets rid of. Sonic might go up a few spots with his big counter gone, as well as Marth.

(Note that each character listed is at a disadvantage to MK, but some more then others.)
You just said...I repeat.

THIS MAN^^^^^^UP HERE...

Is speaking the truth. A legacy has spoken
 

Thunderbolt333

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
168
Location
NC
Im begining to feel sorry for the ppl that main MK because of all the work they put into him just for him to get banned.Is it really that he's truly broken or is it just he's overcentralized.Either way its 2/3 for him to be banned I dont see ban MK getting to 66% IMO.
 

HugS™

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
Messages
1,486
Location
DBR
holy ****, told you hugs, when you're pro people john for you.

fu k your1969 mlg bs
LoL *****, i never disagreed with that. In fact i probably said that at some point.

They john for you, and they brag for you. So you just chill and play.
*****, don't try to show me the ropes, remember where you came from, and why you chose to play this game to begin with.

I'll show you pro. Haha
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
We're not talking high level here, SuSa. Snake is probably one of the deepest characters in the game; I can't fathom the zoning Ally does consistently. It's rare that you do something he didn't want you to when he's in control of a match.

However, in terms of fair-weather players, Snake's basic game is far easier than D3's. Throw nades, tilt, use c4s is far easier than tech chasing and timing your moves.
yeah, because none of snake's game is based on tech chasing and timing either, OH WAIT

seriously I feel let down by the internet here because their is no facepalm pic that is adequate for how stupid this was

If the SBR ignores the common smasher in this final poll, then the wrong people have been trusted with SBR membership. This poll is the final poll, and the last chance to see the community's opinion. It doesn't matter what the top players think, in this case - it matters what the average player thinks. The player you're most likely to see at a tournament. If all of them get frustrated and leave, there will be no more Brawl competitive scene anymore.
Yay for sensationalism! IF WE DON'T BAN META KNIGHT BRAWL WILL DIE EVERYONE WILL LEAVE. Because it's not like the other 45% cares about the issue at all either and we should alienate them too. It's not that simple, and given the amount of alt votes being made, this is a horrible horrible idea.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
I mean, look at snake. Hes no. 2 because hes called the 'MK counter', he is also no. 2 because MK scares off the characters that counter him.
No, Snake is #2 because he's the second-best character. His matchups are very good throughout the whole cast, not only against Meta Knight - you're overexaggerating.

Wario is No. 3 because he has a decent matchup vs MK as well as having a good matchup vs Snake and Falco.
Wario is third because he's the same as Meta Knight matchupwise, just with a couple disadvantaged and even matchups. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight himself.

Falco is no. 4 because he has a decent time with MK as well.
Falco is fourth because he's an amazing character with the best projectile and one of the best grab games in Brawl, additionally to having many good matchups. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight.

Same for Diddy at no. 5. D3 has the no. 6 spot just due to how well matchups can go for him, and he doesn't have too bad of a time vs MK.
No, and no.

Maybe the Tier list itself is centered around MK, as Snake would drop down a few spots with more DKs, D3s, Pikas, and other characters that MK gets rid of.
Uhm, no? lol. That's dumb, Snake wouldn't drop. Maybe a spot or so, but definitely not a "few". Snake is still one of the best - if not the best - character if Meta Knight gets banned, and his status as "Meta Knight counter" will not change that fact. That's just you being silly.

Sonic might go up a few spots with his big counter gone, as well as Marth.
Wait, what? Sonic's worst matchup is a slight disadvantage? Why isn't he High Tier or at least on the brink to High Tier, then?
Stop spitting lies.

(Note that each character listed is at a disadvantage to MK, but some more then others.)
That's an opinion, and I disagree with it, HEAVILY.
 

MorphedChaos

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
1,231
Location
CT / United States
No, Snake is #2 because he's the second-best character. His matchups are very good throughout the whole cast, not only against Meta Knight - you're overexaggerating.
Snake has bad matchups vs Wario, D3, DK and Pika. MK scares off everyone but Wario. If MK is gone, Snake's position would drop a few spots easily, as more of his counters would be around.

Wario is third because he's the same as Meta Knight matchupwise, just with a couple disadvantaged and even matchups. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight himself.
This has quite a bit to do with MK, as if Wario had his current matchups as they were, but an 8:2 in Meta's favor, Wario would be mid-tier. When Wario was thought to have an even matchup with MK, He moved up many spots.

Falco is fourth because he's an amazing character with the best projectile and one of the best grab games in Brawl, additionally to having many good matchups. That has nothing to do with Meta Knight.
So... If Falco had an 8:2 in MK's favor, he would still be where he is? I doubt it.

Uhm, no? lol. That's dumb, Snake wouldn't drop. Maybe a spot or so, but definitely not a "few". Snake is still one of the best - if not the best - character if Meta Knight gets banned, and his status as "Meta Knight counter" will not change that fact. That's just you being silly.
Snake will drop more then you think with his counters running around free of MK's tyranny. Marth or Wario would probably take top, and Snake would be 3rd or 4th. You can't tell for sure all because MK still exists.

Wait, what? Sonic's worst matchup is a slight disadvantage? Why isn't he High Tier or at least on the brink to High Tier, then?
Stop spitting lies.
Oh, I don't know. I'm not in the Back room like you are. Go post every log for all character discussions for all of Brawl's history, and then we can make a decent conversation. Its like Superman vs spiderman, one has too many unfair advantages due to their spot. Don't accuse me of spitting lies when you have more information then I do, your just making yourself look like a ******* when you do.

Sonic would jump up a few spots, thats for sure. His worst matchup is also the most common one he'll face, that weighs heavily with his spot.

That's an opinion, and I disagree with it, HEAVILY.
Alright, so you have your own opinions then. But then what with all the matchups? Do Match up numbers mean absolutely nothing then?



Also, since your so on the defensive when I just said this casual idea, I think I may have stumbled upon a huge asset to the Pro-ban side that you don't agree with due to being anti-ban. You shoot so much hate off in my direction for saying something that I had just thought of... So I pretty much found something that the Anti-ban side has a huge problem dealing with since it is TRUE? Hm....
 

Ijimero

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 9, 2009
Messages
1
i've read both essays... voting pro-ban

when brawl came out everyone keep saying: "Wow, we have a lot of characters, we're gonna see a variable number of characters in pro side of the play, unlike melee who is only fox/marth"

i always disagree with that kind of thinkind relationed to melee, okay, it basically resumes itself in Fox, Falco, Mart, Sheik, Peach, Samus and Cpt. Falcon... but we have a great number of great players playing greatly with all this characters, and some more playing with other chars like Jiggly...

bue in Brawl, whos has a larger option of cast, what we all see is MK! MK MK MK MK... it's even WORSER that it was in Melee... ¬¬"

i don't know if i made myself right clear, im a brazilian player and i've learned english by myself =p

oh, and what i'm saying here, is based by what i've saw here in brazil and what i know of other contries by this fórum and videos... =)
 

Mit

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
947
Location
Southeast Michigan
You could think of it this way too...

Because of MK, people who want to play the characters they love can't play them, and have to play MK or Snake or other high tier characters.

Hm.... You know, I personally think the tier list is all about MK. I mean, look at snake. Hes no. 2 because hes called the 'MK counter', he is also no. 2 because MK scares off the characters that counter him. Wario is No. 3 because he has a decent matchup vs MK as well as having a good matchup vs Snake and Falco. Falco is no. 4 because he has a decent time with MK as well. Same for Diddy at no. 5. D3 has the no. 6 spot just due to how well matchups can go for him, and he doesn't have too bad of a time vs MK.

Maybe the Tier list itself is centered around MK, as Snake would drop down a few spots with more DKs, D3s, Pikas, and other characters that MK gets rid of. Sonic might go up a few spots with his big counter gone, as well as Marth.

(Note that each character listed is at a disadvantage to MK, but some more then others.)
Um, yes, and that's everything I brought up in my first point of why I would want him banned. On one side I think more characters would get a shot at tournaments, and we'd see a lot more variety and life in Brawl tournaments. On the other hand, a massive amount of people would be pissed that he was banned, and would continue to play MK anyways, and hold tournaments where he isn't banned, and forever argue with the people who think the ban should be upheld.

The safer option right now seems to be to not ban him, for the sake of the community, but I myself am much more interested in what would happen if he was banned.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
11,437
Location
Vienna
Snake has bad matchups vs Wario, D3, DK and Pika. MK scares off everyone but Wario. If MK is gone, Snake's position would drop a few spots easily, as more of his counters would be around.
This is BS. Snake has arguably only a few slightly disadvantaged matchups, and Donkey Kong is definitely not among them.


This has quite a bit to do with MK, as if Wario had his current matchups as they were, but an 8:2 in Meta's favor, Wario would be mid-tier. When Wario was thought to have an even matchup with MK, He moved up many spots.
But you're saying that:
Snake will drop more then you think with his counters running around free of MK's tyranny. Marth or Wario would probably take top, and Snake would be 3rd or 4th. You can't tell for sure all because MK still exists.
Logic?

If Meta Knight matters so much to Wario's position, then if he is gone... WHY WOULD WARIO RISE?

So... If Falco had an 8:2 in MK's favor, he would still be where he is? I doubt it.
If Falco would have a **** matchup against the best character in the cast, he probably wouldn't be a High Tier character to begin with, simply because the chances that this is his only bad matchup would be nil.
If you want to be a ***** about this, check out all matchups with characters, not just Meta Knight.

Of course, if you're wanting to make a conspiracy out of this ****, then clearly, you only have to look at their matchups against Meta Knight. But then... why aren't Bowser, Sonic, Ness and other Mid and Low Tier characters that fare rather well against Meta Knight - meaning they only have a slight disadvantage - High Tiers? Going by your logic, if the matchup vs. Meta Knight would matter so extremely much, they would be at least High Tier, if not Top Tier.
Why are Marth and R.O.B. High Tier, if the Meta Knight matchup matters so much? Those two have Meta Knight (supposedly) as one of their worst or absolutely worst matchup. Considering that matchup matters oh so much and indicates where a character stands on the tier list - why are they in High Tier?

Oh, yea, right. In fact, the SBR knows that, and we just placed some characters wrong in order to make you think that some other things but how the characters fare vs. Meta Knight matters.
<- sarcarsm


Oh, I don't know. I'm not in the Back room like you are. Go post every log for all character discussions for all of Brawl's history, and then we can make a decent conversation. Its like Superman vs spiderman, one has too many unfair advantages due to their spot. Don't accuse me of spitting lies when you have more information then I do, your just making yourself look like a ******* when you do.
You can look up the character discussions in the Tactical Discussion board. Do it yourself.
But I know - coming from tournament results and Sonic mains - that Meta Knight is not his hardest matchup. In fact, it's one of his easier matchups through High Tier. He has so much more trouble vs. other characters. Banning Meta Knight will not help Sonic like... at all. If you want to get more information on Sonic vs. Meta Knight, go to the Sonic boards or ask knowledgeable Sonics (Kinzer and ShadowLink are good places to go for that, for instance).

Sonic would jump up a few spots, thats for sure. His worst matchup is also the most common one he'll face, that weighs heavily with his spot.
Stop. Spitting. Lies.

Alright, so you have your own opinions then. But then what with all the matchups? Do Match up numbers mean absolutely nothing then?
They do matter, but ONE SINGLE matchup doesn't mean the whole tier list position. Saying that is DUMB.

Also, since your so on the defensive when I just said this casual idea, I think I may have stumbled upon a huge asset to the Pro-ban side that you don't agree with due to being anti-ban. You shoot so much hate off in my direction for saying something that I had just thought of... So I pretty much found something that the Anti-ban side has a huge problem dealing with since it is TRUE? Hm....
Oh God, no, just when I got Xyro to shut up about conspiracies. -_-
No, I have a "huge problem dealing with it" because you're being an IDIOT.
 

yummynbeefy

Smash Champion
Joined
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DEY TUK ER JERBS!!! (Tampa, FL)
if meta was gone then there would be a more reasonable counterpicking system instead of him countering everyone and going even with 2 chars it would be a REAL cp system which meta totally breaks in bolth ways you simply cannot counterpick him in either way because of stage banning so he can ban fd for falco for example oh god his options are alreaddy limited now hes got japes but o wait meta is still good on this stage

thats the biggest problem i have he has no counters in stages or characters

if it were characters only and he didnt have the advantage on some stages then it would be fine and i really wouldnt care at all

but because of brawls cp system its better for the health of the community for him to be banned
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
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Berlin
MorphedChaos is imo right, not you, Spadefox -_-

If you look at the difficulity of MKs Match-Ups, it really has a handful of similarities to the tier list...

S-Tier Character can fight well against him (Maybe not DDD). A-Tiers have their problems. The others arent important.

Snake & Wario are the most even MUs for MK with Falco (Match up is too CG-dependend) and Diddy (Relativily Stage Dependend) behind.

IC's were thought too have trouble against him, but Lain showed the opposite. Today many people think ICs are S-Tier material and that they will rise next tier List. Same thing happened with ZSS.

DK was said to be even against MK in the beginning, he was relativily high, MU was 50:50. Today the MU is more in MKs favour because they learned it and you see where DK is now...

It's also true that MK is good against a lot of Snake's more even or disadvantaged Match-Ups (DDD, Olimar just to name two).

Maybe it's just random that it seems that the tier list is based of the strenghts against MK. But in Theory it's clear why it is so. MK is good in nearly everything. To keep up with him your Character has to have significant strenths and not many flaws. Snake has his grenades and tilts. Wario has his Dair & Fart. Falco has his CG und lasers. Diddy has his nanerz. ICs have their infinite. Other Characters have nearly nothing, which doesnt get countered by one or more of MKs move.

~xDD
 
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They do matter, but ONE SINGLE matchup doesn't mean the whole tier list position. Saying that is DUMB.
No, but it can mean the whole placement of yourself on the tournament rankings/placement. With MK around I fail to see how many of the other character really have a chance to make it up there. Unless you can get by MK free, or have someone else take out your bad MUs for you, those characters are unlikely to place high if they have an MK barring there way from the top position.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 27, 2005
Messages
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Vienna
MorphedChaos is imo right, not you, Spadefox -_-

If you look at the difficulity of MKs Match-Ups, it really has a handful of similarities to the tier list...
THEN WHY ARE BOWSER AND SONIC NOT IN HIGH TIER?!

OF COURSE - if a character is good he will fare well against other good characters! But saying that only Meta Knight's matchups would matter somehow, and everything else doesn't is DUMB. It's WRONG.
 

LewsTherin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
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30
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British Columbia
THEN WHY ARE BOWSER AND SONIC NOT IN HIGH TIER?!

OF COURSE - if a character is good he will fare well against other good characters! But saying that only Meta Knight's matchups would matter somehow, and everything else doesn't is DUMB. It's WRONG.
He never stated that MK matchups = tier list. He said that the tier list shows similarities to MK's matchups, is that not different?
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
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Messages
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Vienna
I see. He does raise a good point though, even if he exaggerates it(not overexaggerates, which isn't a word, though it does sound cool).
Well duh.
If a character fares bad against good characters, he's clearly bad. Meta Knight is no exception, he's a good character too, so if a character fares well against him and other characters, too, he's a High Tier character, easily. If he fares well against a lot of other good characters and only does bad against Meta Knight, he still is High Tier (R.O.B., Marth). If a character fares well against Meta Knight, but bad against other good characters, he's Mid/Low Tier (Bowser, Sonic).

It's not that hard to see, it's just basic logic. No conspiracies. Only common sense.
 

xDD-Master

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
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Location
Berlin
MorphedChaos said Meta Knight matchups = tier list positions.
He agreed with MorphedChaos.
I just agree if you look at the S and A tiers. Yeah I havent mentioned it like that, but both of you mostly discussed the S-Tiers ;)

The characters lower on the tier list are that low because they have other really dumb match-ups. They get infinited by DDD, CG2Daired by Falco, totally outranged by Marth, totally outpriorized by Gaws Bair + other things or they get gimped by MK.

Sorry for the little confusion. I didnt want to say that your words are wrong (You take facts and thats OK). I just think that their is some truth in the Tier List = MK Match-Ups theory ;)

Oh and before I forget. Falco for example has bad MUs vs. IC and some others, but HE STILL IS that high on the tier list. And it is because he is good against MK, but also against Snake, DDD, Wario and Diddy (The other S-Tiers).
 

MorphedChaos

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Location
CT / United States
This is BS. Snake has arguably only a few slightly disadvantaged matchups, and Donkey Kong is definitely not among them.
Maybe I'm misinformed on DK, but the point still stands that Snake has more bad matchups then Wario, and DEFINITELY more then MK. He is far more balanced then MK in this regard.

If Meta Knight matters so much to Wario's position, then if he is gone... WHY WOULD WARIO RISE?
Simple, MK would be out of the way, Wario has an advantage vs Snake, and the only character that Wario has a remote difficulty with is Marth. Marth might take the no. 1 spot due to his only counter missing, but Wario would be a tight no. 2.

If Falco would have a **** matchup against the best character in the cast, he probably wouldn't be a High Tier character to begin with, simply because the chances that this is his only bad matchup would be nil.
If you want to be a ***** about this, check out all matchups with characters, not just Meta Knight.

Of course, if you're wanting to make a conspiracy out of this ****, then clearly, you only have to look at their matchups against Meta Knight. But then... why aren't Bowser, Sonic, Ness and other Mid and Low Tier characters that fare rather well against Meta Knight - meaning they only have a slight disadvantage - High Tiers? Going by your logic, if the matchup vs. Meta Knight would matter so extremely much, they would be at least High Tier, if not Top Tier.
Why are Marth and R.O.B. High Tier, if the Meta Knight matchup matters so much? Those two have Meta Knight (supposedly) as one of their worst or absolutely worst matchup. Considering that matchup matters oh so much and indicates where a character stands on the tier list - why are they in High Tier?
You know what? I'm ALLOWED to make a conspiracy since the Back room, that you are in, is so separate from the rest of the brawl community its disgusting. Example? You don't post everything that goes on back there. So until you make the Back room read-only to every member on this forum, you can withhold information to yourselves and thus deprive the community of information that you guys can use whenever you want or make claims to that the community knows nothing about. Post all the logs of what goes on in the backroom, or leave EVERYTHING that goes on in the backroom out of this discussion, since I am not 'allowed' to view such information.

If Falco got utterly destroyed by MK, the most common character at tournies, he wouldn't be in the S tier, he would be in the A tier with Marth, or the top of the B tier. MK is a huge deciding factor of tier placement, denying such means that either you are just bias, or you are withholding information that your not sharing, which is just as bad if not worse.


Oh, yea, right. In fact, the SBR knows that, and we just placed some characters wrong in order to make you think that some other things but how the characters fare vs. Meta Knight matters.
<- sarcarsm
How should I know? I'm not PART of the backroom. If I was then maybe my replies would be much different, but since I'm NOT in the backroom like you, they are as they are.

You can look up the character discussions in the Tactical Discussion board. Do it yourself.
But I know - coming from tournament results and Sonic mains - that Meta Knight is not his hardest matchup. In fact, it's one of his easier matchups through High Tier. He has so much more trouble vs. other characters. Banning Meta Knight will not help Sonic like... at all. If you want to get more information on Sonic vs. Meta Knight, go to the Sonic boards or ask knowledgeable Sonics (Kinzer and ShadowLink are good places to go for that, for instance).
Maybe MK isn't Sonic's worse matchup, but it is his most common one. And your saying the Character discussion topic is the exact one from the Backroom? That still means little, since I can't see the entire forum.

Maybe I am misinformed on Sonic a bit, but you haven't really given a good counter example, you just say it isn't his worst. So we are both being lazy.

Stop. Spitting. Lies.
Counterexample please? And stop being so spiteful, Karma will destroy you mate. Your better then that.

They do matter, but ONE SINGLE matchup doesn't mean the whole tier list position. Saying that is DUMB.
Make the SBR Read-only, otherwise you can't disprove this conspiracy theory.

MK is the most common character at tournies, he has the most sway of character placement on the list, which is why it can be said it centers around him. He holds the most cards due to being so common, as well as being the best character in the game. Denying such is ignorance.

Oh God, no, just when I got Xyro to shut up about conspiracies. -_-
No, I have a "huge problem dealing with it" because you're being an IDIOT.
[/quote]

until the SBR is read-only to all members, conspiracy theories are allowed as you can withhold things in the SBR. I'll say this, Make the SBR read-only, and conspiracy theories disappear as they have no credit.

And be nice mate, you are not making yourself look like the 'almighty BRommer' that you should be. I will not cuss or insult you, but do the same in return, or is that too much to ask?

EDIT: xDD master is right, I do mention mostly the S and A tiers, but those are the ones that matter the most, it even says in the tier list topic that "Long story short, if the character is in S or A tier, order matters a lot. If the character is not, then unless it's at the top of the tier and another is at the bottom of the tier, there's not that huge of a difference." In its own way. For a tier to have such huge differences means that it is more important, as there will be more discussion on it.

I do not mention the C and lower tiers, as MK has good matchups vs all of those characters already, they just get screwed by other higher tiers.


I'll actually say... xDD master says my theory better then I do somewhat.
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
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8132-9932-4710
*facepalm*

I think I'm pretty much anti-ban now.
 

Red Arremer

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Messages
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until the SBR is read-only to all members
The SBR will never be completely transparent. And people like you are the exact reason for it.

It's not like I didn't try to have the public know what we are doing, but the antipathy among the other SBR members is not allowing this to happen. Don't say I'm being a secretive ****er, because I actually am posting here and discussing with the public and, additionally I'm standing for informing the public further! Not with complete read-only SBR to the public, but mainly with a compromise that both keeps the public informed and spares SBR members getting BS. But I'm not the SBR alone, and if the other SBRoomers don't agree with me, then I can't change it. So stop giving me ****, since I could simply NOT post in here and correct your misconceptions and wrong information.

Also, we don't have any special information. We're not the CIA.

For the rest of your posting:
Well duh.
If a character fares bad against good characters, he's clearly bad. Meta Knight is no exception, he's a good character too, so if a character fares well against him and other characters, too, he's a High Tier character, easily. If he fares well against a lot of other good characters and only does bad against Meta Knight, he still is High Tier (R.O.B., Marth). If a character fares well against Meta Knight, but bad against other good characters, he's Mid/Low Tier (Bowser, Sonic).

It's not that hard to see, it's just basic logic. No conspiracies. Only common sense.
 

JUDGE

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*facepalm*

I think I'm pretty much anti-ban now.
hahaha^^ i am exactly the opposite of you^^
what morphed chaos said let me think over this topic twice
i dunno....maybe he should be banned....but still.......i am for not banning him
 

MorphedChaos

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The SBR will never be completely transparent. And people like you are the exact reason for it.

It's not like I didn't try to have the public know what we are doing, but the antipathy among the other SBR members is not allowing this to happen. Don't say I'm being a secretive ****er, because I actually am posting here and discussing with the public and, additionally I'm standing for informing the public further! But I'm not the SBR alone, and if the other SBRoomers don't agree with me, then I can't change it. So stop giving me ****, since I could simply NOT post in here and correct your misconceptions and wrong information.

Also, we don't have any special information. We're not the CIA.
I can't be sure unless I can read it mate. But then your talking to the guy who thinks the Bush Administration had a role in 9/11, and I have a video that pretty much confirms the conspiracy theory. In fact, its a good idea to have conspiracy theorists, it stops things like Palpotine (The emperor from Star Wars) from happening. (That is actually on my mind when I think about conspiracy theories, so many innocent lives lost... Why did so much pain and suffering have to happen?)

And if your informing the public, then I've got no ill feelings. Sorry if I portrayed any beforehand, I would appriciate it though if you didn't take such an offensive tone with me from this point on. Let bigons be bigons, alright mate? And for giving ya crap, its a common trend that not even I am cure of, yelling your frustration at leadership that keeps things secret from the public at the first voice that comes at you that is part of said leadership.

For the rest of your posting:
Well duh.
If a character fares bad against good characters, he's clearly bad. Meta Knight is no exception, he's a good character too, so if a character fares well against him and other characters, too, he's a High Tier character, easily. If he fares well against a lot of other good characters and only does bad against Meta Knight, he still is High Tier (R.O.B., Marth). If a character fares well against Meta Knight, but bad against other good characters, he's Mid/Low Tier (Bowser, Sonic).

It's not that hard to see, it's just basic logic. No conspiracies. Only common sense.
Right there, you centralize around MK. You just proved my point in that quote. MK is a huge portion of the SBR's decision on tier lists if your quote is true.
 

Red Arremer

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Right there, you centralize around MK. You just proved my point in that quote. MK is a huge portion of the SBR's decision on tier lists if your quote is true.
Uhm, no? He isn't. Read that posting again. Think about it.
All I said is:
If a character does bad against a lot of good characters, he's bad.
If a character does good against a lot of good characters, he's good.

I was giving examples and naming characters that do well against Meta Knight but still are bad and vice versa, because, you know, Meta Knight is the topic here.

So, of course, if a character fares good against a lot of good characters, he's good. And since Meta Knight is a good character, faring good against him gives the character a boon. Just as much of a boon than being good against Snake or Falco would do.
If the character does bad against Meta Knight but still good against other good characters it doesn't make him a bad character - which is proven by the likes of Marth or R.O.B..
If the character does well against Meta Knight but bad against a lot of other good characters, it doesn't make him a good character - which is proven by the likes of Bowser or Sonic.

Top Tiers universally have very good matchups and only a few disadvantaged ones. That doesn't tie them to Meta Knight alone.

I'm sorry Spadefox
You outta be.

I'm done here, this is very energy- and time-consuming.
 
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Why is nobody considering a handicap? MK destroys the CP system and has no bad matchups. So why let him CP? Proposal: if you are playing MK in a match, you have to single-blind. You don't know what your opponent is choosing. Then, you get neither a stage ban if you win nor a counterpick if you lose. IMO, that would at least make the issue less dramatic.
 

MorphedChaos

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Uhm, no? He isn't. Read that posting again. Think about it.
All I said is:
If a character does bad against a lot of good characters, he's bad.
If a character does good against a lot of good characters, he's good.

I was giving examples and naming characters that do well against Meta Knight but still are bad and vice versa, because, you know, Meta Knight is the topic here.

So, of course, if a character fares good against a lot of good characters, he's good. And since Meta Knight is a good character, faring good against him gives the character a boon. Just as much of a boon than being good against Snake or Falco would do.
If the character does bad against Meta Knight but still good against other good characters it doesn't make him a bad character - which is proven by the likes of Marth or R.O.B..
If the character does well against Meta Knight but bad against a lot of other good characters, it doesn't make him a good character - which is proven by the likes of Bowser or Sonic.

Top Tiers universally have very good matchups and only a few disadvantaged ones. That doesn't tie them to Meta Knight alone.
You keep centering around MK though. Use a different character that has no bad matchups then you can get somewhere. (Wait, you can't, so yeah. MK has no bad matchups, so he is the perfect thing to use as the big measure of placement.)


You outta be.

I'm done here, this is very energy- and time-consuming.
BE NICE. It isn't that hard >.>
 

Red Arremer

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You keep centering around MK though. Use a different character that has no bad matchups then you can get somewhere. (Wait, you can't, so yeah. MK has no bad matchups, so he is the perfect thing to use as the big measure of placement.)
Well guess what, the topic name says "Community vote about Meta Knight". You were talking about Meta Knight.

But for the sake of example, I'll give you that one. I'll be using Snake as an example.

If the character does bad against Snake but still good against other good characters it doesn't make him a bad character - which is proven by the likes of Mr. Game & Watch.
If the character does well against Snake but bad against a lot of other good characters, it doesn't make him a good character - which is proven by the likes of Link.
 

Sosuke

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Spadefox is being very nice considering the argument you're giving him.
 

xDD-Master

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But I think it's sure that the tier list must be based on mostly on MK (Campared to other Character). He is the best Character and he is the most played character. If your Character is bad against him you will fail in tournaments <,<

I'm 100% if a there would be a Character with 70:30 on MK but 50:50 to 45:55 against everyone else, he would still be somewhere around S to B tier. Or no, when I think twice, MK would just not be on 1 anymore xD

Anyway if your Character is good vs. MK but bad vs. Ganon he would be higher than if he would be bad vs. MK but good vs. Ganon... o.o
 

MorphedChaos

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Well guess what, the topic name says "Community vote about Meta Knight". You were talking about Meta Knight.

But for the sake of example, I'll give you that one. I'll be using Snake as an example.

If the character does bad against Snake but still good against other good characters it doesn't make him a bad character - which is proven by the likes of Mr. Game & Watch.
If the character does well against Snake but bad against a lot of other good characters, it doesn't make him a good character - which is proven by the likes of Link.
There ya go, that wasn't so hard :p.

There is the thing though, Snake has bad matchups, MK does not.

What do you have to say about MK having 0 bad matchups and arguably very few neutral matchups that aren't himself?

Also, what about MK at Mid-level play? Would you just brush away mid-level play concerns because they are not the top 100?(This is an honest question and still goes to the point, I am not in the Backroom, and the Anti-ban argument does NOT mention mid-level play at all. So what does the anti-ban have to say about this?)
 

Red Arremer

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But I think it's sure that the tier list must be based on MK. He is the best Character and he is the most played character. If your Character is bad against him you will fail in tournaments <,<
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.
Marth and R.O.B. are still high tier.

I'm 100% if a there would be a Character with 7:3 on MK but 5:5 to 3:7 against everyone else, he would still be somewhere around S to B tier. Or no, when I think twice, MK would just not be on 1 anymore xD
This is bull****.

What do you have to say about MK having 0 bad matchups and arguably very few neutral matchups that aren't himself?
While that's true that he is a safe choice, he's never the best choice.
Every character has a matchup that is harder or just as hard as Meta Knight (usually Snake, sometimes other Top or High Tiers).
There might be a handful of exceptions, but I could only think of one (R.O.B., and even there I'm not sure considering Zero Suit Samus' Footstool combo and whatnot).

So if Meta Knight is gone, for most viable characters (meaning S through C Tier), a slightly disadvantaged matchup is gone. While he is common, hardly any character has so much trouble against him - I can count these viable who do characters on one hand.
They will still have harder matchups, and since the Meta Knight players who continue to play will simply switch to other Top or High Tiers (logically thinking, I doubt good players will switch to Low Tiers, really), there is only an increase of Snakes, Warios, Falcos and other Top/High Tiers. Which means that if you play Mr. Game & Watch or Donkey Kong (two characters who actually do okay to well to Meta Knight), chances of running into a Snake or Dedede respectively have become higher than before.
There will neither be an increase of Low or Mid Tier mains placing - these characters aren't viable anyway.

The only thing that'll happen is that the top placings go either all to one character (Snake is suspected to become the next dominating character, here), or they split up on S Tier (which is a bit more reasonable).

Also, what about MK at Mid-level play? Would you just brush away mid-level play concerns because they are not the top 100?(This is an honest question and still goes to the point, I am not in the Backroom, and the Anti-ban argument does NOT mention mid-level play at all. So what does the anti-ban have to say about this?)
Since I voted Anti-Ban for a completely different reason than most other Anti-Ban voters, I can't tell you. I just don't know. Ask others.
 

xDD-Master

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This is bull****.
I corrected myself x)

MK vs Marth is debatable 55:45 but NOT 65:35. ROB is very bad against MK... when did you see the last Rob doing well in a tourney (bigger ones) ?

Also High Tier =/= Top Tier. And Marth is good (Or even) vs. everyone else. So you see how much MK matters.
 
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