Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[MorphedChaos]

This is bull****.

First, STOP CUSSING, your bad at it.

Second, if MK had an unwinnable matchup like DK vs D3, he would be MUCH MUCH lower on the tier list. You are basically saying he would be #1 even if such a matchup existed?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Agreed on the marth vs. MK deal; marth has about 3 bad matchups, invalidates a ton of characters, and is high tier, not top tier.

 

[deepseadiva]

Why is nobody considering a handicap? MK destroys the CP system and has no bad matchups. So why let him CP? Proposal: if you are playing MK in a match, you have to single-blind. You don't know what your opponent is choosing. Then, you get neither a stage ban if you win nor a counterpick if you lose. IMO, that would at least make the issue less dramatic.

We either come to the conclusion he's broken, or he's not. We're not going to go ahead and say "kinda" and give him a handicap. If we admit that he needs a handicap, we admit that he's broken - and so we go ahead and ban him. We don't dance around it by not letting him counterpick stages, or having him start with 30%, or some garbage like that.

 

[Red Arremer]

Anyway if your Character is good vs. MK but bad vs. Ganon he would be higher than if he would be bad vs. MK but good vs. Ganon... o.o

How many Ganondorfs do you see placing in tournaments? Is Ganondorf a good character?

Answer these questions and then think about your statement.

Second, if MK had an unwinnable matchup like DK vs D3, he would be MUCH MUCH lower on the tier list. You are basically saying he would be #1 even if such a matchup existed?

No, that wouldn't be the case. Proof: Dedede, who's getting utterly ***** by the Ice Climbers.

He might not be the first character if such a matchup was existing, but he definitely wouldn't drop a lot.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I corrected myself x)

MK vs Marth is debatable 55:45 but NOT 65:35. ROB is very bad against MK... when did you see the last Rob doing well in a tourney (bigger ones) ?

Also High Tier =/= Top Tier. And Marth is good (Or even) vs. everyone else. So you see how much MK matters.

No. Marth MK is nowhere close to 55:45, most Marths agree it's 65:35.

Marth isn't good or even vs. D3 or Snake.

Now stop making **** up.

 

[MorphedChaos]

While that's true that he is a safe choice, he's never the best choice.
Every character has a matchup that is harder or just as hard as Meta Knight (usually Snake, sometimes other Top or High Tiers).
There might be a handful of exceptions, but I could only think of one (R.O.B., and even there I'm not sure considering Zero Suit Samus' Footstool combo and whatnot).

So if Meta Knight is gone, for most viable characters (meaning S through C Tier), a slightly disadvantaged matchup is gone. While he is common, hardly any character has so much trouble against him - I can count these viable who do characters on one hand.
They will still have harder matchups, and since the Meta Knight players who continue to play will simply switch to other Top or High Tiers (logically thinking, I doubt good players will switch to Low Tiers, really), there is only an increase of Snakes, Warios, Falcos and other Top/High Tiers. Which means that if you play Mr. Game & Watch or Donkey Kong (two characters who actually do okay to well to Meta Knight), chances of running into a Snake or Dedede respectively have become higher than before.
There will neither be an increase of Low or Mid Tier mains placing - these characters aren't viable anyway.

The only thing that'll happen is that the top placings go either all to one character (Snake is suspected to become the next dominating character, here), or they split up on S Tier (which is a bit more reasonable).

There would be more diversity though, which you can't argue is a bad thing.

Statistically speaking. (This is just from matchup numbers) MK should win every matchup if they are equal due to having slight advantages. (This is more of a joke argument, ignore it XD.)

Though, if MK is the safest choice, doesn't he break the counterpick system? There is no downside to choosing him at all, while choosing other characters there is the chance of their counter being chosen. Or their counter stage, which MK doesn't have one. MK makes the counterpick system void pretty much due to having no disadvantages.

Since I voted Anti-Ban for a completely different reason than most other Anti-Ban voters, I can't tell you. I just don't know. Ask others.

Alrighty.

No, that wouldn't be the case. Proof: Dedede, who's getting utterly ***** by the Ice Climbers.

He might not be the first character if such a matchup was existing, but he definitely wouldn't drop a lot.

Yeah, but he wouldn't be no. 1, which is what you were saying unintentionally and what we were getting at. And if such a matchup did exist, my theory would be disproven, but it doesn't so it can't be disproven fully.

As for the D3/IC matchup, I think that's because ICs aren't all that common and their infinite is moderately difficult to do compared to D3's.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

We either come to the conclusion he's broken, or he's not. We're not going to go ahead and say "kinda" and give him a handicap. If we admit that he needs a handicap, we admit that he's broken - and so we go ahead and ban him. We don't dance around it by not letting him counterpick stages, or having him start with 30%, or some garbage like that.

Why no grey area? The opinion that he is broken may not be shared by anyone, but the idea the he's too good is more adaptable. With the no CP/ban rule then maybe Metaknight wouldn't be that dominant. Think about the Diddy vs. MK example. Round one diddy and MK go to final destination, where dididy has the advantage, if only slightly, and wins. Round two, Diddy bans RC and MK takes him to the next worst place and ***** him. Then game three diddy has to choose a stage... but the one "good" stage against MK for him gets banned by MK.
With the rule in place, game one they go to FD, game 2 they go somewhere of diddy's choice that isn't unwinnable, and if that loses, game three they go to a third place of diddy's choice (can't choose the same stage more than once in a set unless both agree). It also means that MK can't take one of the many stages where he absolutely ***** everyone (there's more than one) as a counterpick...

 

[xDD-Master]

No. Marth MK is nowhere close to 55:45, most Marths agree it's 65:35.

Marth isn't good or even vs. D3 or Snake.

Now stop making **** up.

Then you marths have a ****ing problem cause I read other things, Dont change your minds every week <,<

How many Ganondorfs do you see placing in tournaments? Is Ganondorf a good character?

Answer these questions and then think about your statement.

This is what I said o.o

The MK MU is more important than the Ganon MU...

No, that wouldn't be the case. Proof: Dedede, who's getting utterly ***** by the Ice Climbers.

He might not be the first character if such a matchup was existing, but he definitely wouldn't drop a lot.

DDD vs. IC is never unwinnable. It's bad, but so are others MUs (Olimar... <<)

DDD is NOT a good main to go all tourney with him. But he is good as a Main if you use a good 2nd or better than that: DDD is a very solid second for many characters (Maybe the best behind MK).

 

[Red Arremer]

DDD vs. IC is never unwinnable. It's bad, but so are others MUs

It's one of Dedede's hardest matchups. It's not unwinnable, but neither are pretty much all of Meta Knight's matchups (for the other character, that is).

Dedede does have a few bad matchups, but he still is in S Tier. Do you really think that's only because he's only slightly disadvantaged to Meta Knight?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I agree with the argument stating that MK isn't always the best choice (despite not having lower than 50/50). There are better choices to make against Snake and Wario that are not MK. And a lot of people are arguing the play-to-win strategy behind always picking MK. However, if you really want to play to win, you'd pick a character to yield better than 50/50.

I've said so before, but it's probably buried... but I consider myself mid-level and I have my MK wrecked pretty hard by IC's and Falco. The player behind these characters also has spent less cumulative time on either character than I have on MK. I'd like to emphasize the IC's. Watching pros avoid the grab is one thing, but it's quite another for someone who's skill is many grades lower than M2K.

 

[deepseadiva]

Why no grey area?

Because it doesn't exist.

The question is whether MK is broken. Saying yes, to any degree such as saying "kinda" is still saying yes. When we admit that he's broken, just go ahead and ban him. We're not going to dance around the issue.

He's beatable, or he's not.

Very plain. Very simple.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I agree with the argument stating that MK isn't always the best choice (despite not having lower than 50/50). There are better choices to make against Snake and Wario that are not MK. And a lot of people are arguing the play-to-win strategy behind always picking MK. However, if you really want to play to win, you'd pick a character to yield better than 50/50.

Double blinds. Regardless who you pick, there's a chance your opponent will pick his/her counter.

@Meno: I just don't see why. Saying that he's overpowered to the point of being broken doesn't mean that we can't take measures to make him less broken as opposed to just removing him from the game.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm sure noone would want him banned if he really had a hat.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hm... Another thought. Even though MK isn't a character's worse matchup. Think of this, If someone wanted to use the absolute character to counterpick another character, they would need to learn all the ATs and aspects of that new character, which does justify them changing. Or they can stay MK and have guaranteed good matchups vs other characters, but not always the best.

Which do you feel would spur a more competitive metagame? Staying one character with 6:4-7:3 with everyone, or learning the character that has a guaranteed 8:2 vs another character, but can be 8:2'ed themselves?

@spadefox.

I like MK as a character, don't get me wrong, but hes like a Ret paladin or Deathknight in World of Warcraft (Patch 3.0-3.1), very very powerful and simplistic to play. Since you can't patch SSBB, he has to be banned for a more balanced game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Spadefox: Project SA anyone? :V

I agree morphed chaos, playing to win and picking someone other than MK unless you are 100% sure your opponent is playing a certain character is wrong.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Double blinds. Regardless who you pick, there's a chance your opponent will pick his/her counter.

True. I suppose it's nice for any match you may have lost (you see their pick first) or if you already know that person plays one character (which... is rare? i'm not sure :-p)

I'll hop back in the conversation later. it's almost 5AM here.

 

[LewsTherin]

The only thing better than MK is if you main both wario and marth, strictly speaking in terms of matchups. However that's 2x the work for a negligable advantage. 62 average for them combined unless I counted wrong, only 60 for meta. ( I only used their row, not their columns, as I am too lazy to do that half of the matchup chart, but I doubt much of a change would happen)

 

[Allied]

You keep centering around MK though. Use a different character that has no bad matchups then you can get somewhere. (Wait, you can't, so yeah. MK has no bad matchups, so he is the perfect thing to use as the big measure of placement.)




BE NICE. It isn't that hard >.>

You're a fool.

Why are you bothering spadefox leave him alone

don't answer me back on this either because i'm getting off this thread

 

[MorphedChaos]

The only thing better than MK is if you main both wario and marth, strictly speaking in terms of matchups. However that's 2x the work for a negligable advantage. 62 average for them combined unless I counted wrong, only 60 for meta. ( I only used their row, not their columns, as I am too lazy to do that half of the matchup chart, but I doubt much of a change would happen)

O.o, I should get better with Marth then! I suck as marth >.>

But yes, MK does have to do less work in order to succeed compared to other characters due to always having the advantage no matter the matchup, that means something.

 

[deepseadiva]

@Meno: I just don't see why. Saying that he's overpowered to the point of being broken doesn't mean that we can't take measures to make him less broken as opposed to just removing him from the game.

You act like he's broken at all. When's something's not broken, we don't touch it. But if he is broken, just throw it away - we are not going to duck tape the shambles in an attempt to make it work for sentimental reasons.

 

[LewsTherin]

O.o, I should get better with Marth then! I suck as marth >.>

But yes, MK does have to do less work in order to succeed compared to other characters due to always having the advantage no matter the matchup, that means something.

Yea, marth gives you a good advantage that you wouldn't get with wario over, Falco, GW, Pika, ZSS, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Ike, and of course cancels your terrible matchup versus himself. But I don't see it helping that much as the time spent on him could be spent furthering your wario. Not to mention at any time you use him to counter they could just use metaknight the next round and wipe the floor with you :/

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You act like he's broken at all. When's something's not broken, we don't touch it. But if he is broken, just throw it away - we are not going to duck tape the shambles in an attempt to make it work for sentimental reasons.

...

This is stupid.

 

[lucha5]

Seriously its not like the best mk users are scrubs ppl there actually really good. and if your referring to anybody can pick him up then yea they can, but if there facing anybody good most of the time there lose.
Mk has tough matchups like snake,wario,diddy I know for a fact alot of mk's hate playing a good wario.
And Seriously its a excuse to say the metagame is messed up because him, Its our choice to not use other chars.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm trying to revert to simpler and simpler analogies for your sake.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Seriously its not like the best mk users are scrubs ppl there actually really good. and if your referring to anybody can pick him up then yea they can, but if there facing anybody good most of the time there lose.
Mk has tough matchups like snake,wario,diddy I know for a fact alot of mk's hate playing a good wario.
And Seriously its a excuse to say the metagame is messed up because him, Its our choice to not use other chars.

I doubt M2K, Azen, Dojo and the like would be where they are if they mained Ganondorf, Player skill has a HUGE factor, but it isn't everything. MK is a pain at high levels because he breaks the counterpick system and never has an uphill battle (Matchup number wise), and at mid levels hes like hitting the nitro, he gives you the edge to win.

EDIT: Ok, I'm confused now. Why did I mention M2K and them?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seriously its not like the best mk users are scrubs ppl there actually really good. and if your referring to anybody can pick him up then yea they can, but if there facing anybody good most of the time there lose.

True. Now tell me why as a starting player I should not take metaknight.

Mk has tough matchups like snake,wario,diddy I know for a fact alot of mk's hate playing a good wario.

If by tough matchup you mean "almost fair" then you could be right; MK does not have tough matchups.

And Seriously its a excuse to say the metagame is messed up because him, Its our choice to not use other chars.

See above. There is no reason, if you are playing to win, to not main MK.

 

[Red Arremer]

I doubt M2K, Azen, Dojo and the like would be where they are if they mained Ganondorf, Player skill has a HUGE factor, but it isn't everything.

If M2K, Azen, Dojo and the like would be so silly to use a Low Tier character, they wouldn't place, that is correct.
However, if they play other High Tier characters, their results would not be that different from their current ones.

 

[etecoon]

If M2K, Azen, Dojo and the like would be so silly to use a Low Tier character, they wouldn't place, that is correct.
However, if they play other High Tier characters, their results would not be that different from their current ones.

yep, azen didn't even use MK before he quit for a lot of months, he used a ton of random characters. dojo went to an MK banned tournament and got fourth using a mid tier that he presumably wouldn't practice nearly as much.

 

[lucha5]

True. Now tell me why as a starting player I should not take metaknight.

I've played more then enough starting mk's who complain about Snake being cheap then mk themselves.

If by tough matchup you mean "almost fair" then you could be right; MK does not have tough matchups.
I would say 50/50 with snake and wario a tough considering both players know the matchup well, after that its up to you who is the better player.



See above. There is no reason, if you are playing to win, to not main MK.

That maybe True but Even if mk is Banned that leaves d3 back on top? which is just cging and bairing. or Falco who can camp hard too. or even g&w who can plank.

 

[MorphedChaos]

If M2K, Azen, Dojo and the like would be so silly to use a Low Tier character, they wouldn't place, that is correct.
However, if they play other High Tier characters, their results would not be that different from their current ones.

Yeah, I know. I was confused as to why I used them actually >.>.

I really do dislike how MK totally voids the counterpick system due to not having anything that could harm him at all. The only thing that could harm him is not having the 'Best' matchup against a character, but he still has an advantage over all characters, so why take the risk to have a 'best' matchup when you are guaranteed to have a positive matchup against everyone and no negatives?

 

[WheelOfFish]

Remember everybody, playing as Metaknight takes more practice than pressing the z-button repeatedly (excluding ICs once again).

 

[MorphedChaos]

Remember everybody, playing as Metaknight takes more practice than pressing the z-button repeatedly (excluding ICs once again).

Yeah, He needs to push the B button and C stick too

 

[Red Arremer]

Yeah, He needs to push the B button and C stick too

If you get beaten by a Meta Knight who only spams Mach Tornado and DSmash, you don't deserve to win anyway.

 

[MorphedChaos]

If you get beaten by a Meta Knight who only spams Mach Tornado and DSmash, you don't deserve to win anyway.

So true XD. Ah, but it is funny to see people like that though, no?

By that, I mean B/Cstick spamming MKs. Ah well, destroy them by aircamping and they learn eventually...

 

[deepseadiva]

When most of them come back to the internet and complain about it and demand the character be banned, not really, no.

 

[Palpi]

True. Now tell me why as a starting player I should not take metaknight.

Your logic in ******** if you actually think you're trying to prove something. Metaknight is the ****ing best character in this game. Even if you thought he wasn't ban worthy, and was just the best character in the game, HE WOULD STILL BE THE BEST CHARACTER TO PLAY BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST.

If metaknight got banned you could ask the same question and people would say, snake is the best character therefor you should play him if you are serious about winning.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Your logic in ******** if you actually think you're trying to prove something. Metaknight is the ****ing best character in this game. Even if you thought he wasn't ban worthy, and was just the best character in the game, HE WOULD STILL BE THE BEST CHARACTER TO PLAY BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST.

If metaknight got banned you could ask the same question and people would say, snake is the best character therefor you should play him if you are serious about winning.

If MK was banned, the 'best character' thing would be up in the air. There would BE no best character anymore! Every character would have advantages and disadvantages, MK only has advantages. (Matchup wise.) So you could say D3 was the best because he ***** most of the tier really well. Or you can say Wario is the best because he can camp like no other, or Snake, but it would be up in the air.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Your logic in ******** if you actually think you're trying to prove something. Metaknight is the ****ing best character in this game. Even if you thought he wasn't ban worthy, and was just the best character in the game, HE WOULD STILL BE THE BEST CHARACTER TO PLAY BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST.

If metaknight got banned you could ask the same question and people would say, snake is the best character therefor you should play him if you are serious about winning.

Fine. How about this: "Tell me why I shouldn't play metaknight instead of anyone else if I want to play in a tournament in any given situation where I'm not 100% sure what the opponent is going to use".

 

[jbandrew]

If metaknight got banned you could ask the same question and people would say, snake is the best character therefor you should play him if you are serious about winning.

But Snake WOULDN'T be the best character in the game if meta was banned. He gets ***** by DDD. Falco and Wario can do well vs him too. I think the tier list would actually change if meta was banned, Snake would NOT be the best in the game tho.... at least in my opinion.

 

[Palpi]

D3 doesn't by all means **** him. And him you don't let falco get the chaingrab isn't the match up like even?

Regardless who would be second what I said would still apply.

@Budget. As the best character in the game, he has the best chance of winning in a blind pick, as he should have.