Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[AlphaZealot]

We'd rather have more stages. It makes more sense to ban a character 3 years into the game than to remove a few funky stages.

Brinstar and RC were banned at Apex and MK was just as dominant in the top 8 as ever.

 

[Sorto]

It is only a single tournament guys... Some people have off-days and some people have on-days. I think we are all taking ONE tournament a little too seriously. For the betterment of the US metagame, Meta-Knight is being banned to force the evolution of other characters. MK has evolved far beyond most other characters in the states, and the ban will make people choose other characters and develop them. I say once people up their game with the rest of the cast, I think MK could be reintroduced and mesh a little bit better, and not take 50% of the earnings throughout tournaments.

Forcing us to play with other characters is meant to counter the seemingly "insta-win" that is MK.

A lot of the Top MKs will just quit as well. M2K said hed quit. And he is at the very least top 3 in U.S. in brawl. So you lose a lot of the best players for the possible betterment of other characters. When MK is reintroduced he may nullify these characters.

MK has been legal in Japan the whole time and there metagame is doing fine. It is most likely better than ours. But at the very least equal.

An mk legal metagame can reach our levels and even higher levels. That is what Japan proved.

 

[SpongeJordan]

Banning a character isn't temporary. That's why the temp-bans were suggested and people didn't go for it. Now those people are introducing it as their own idea... pro-ban falters.

To develop new tactics to expose MK, we need to have him around to be exposed, so that we don't show to every international event (on our own soil) in such bad form. We were showed that even our MKs have room to level up, and that our other characters need some real lab time so that next time we don't end up giving all the placing money to the Japanese.

You know, this could be related well to US being Vegeta and Japan being Goku... in fact, way too well.

 

[Omni]

Brinstar and RC were banned at Apex and MK was just as dominant in the top 8 as ever.

Damnit, AZ. Why bother posting if you're just going to take the cherry pick route?

You -cannot- say MK was just as dominant. If RC and Brinstar were on, I guarantee you more of our top US MK's would have been in the Top 8 then what was shown.

Regardless, you're just making general statements that don't actually touch or respond to the subject that we got outclassed two nationals in a row.

You literally have said nothing over the past two pages.

 

[CO18]

lol, I dont understand, out of all their players in attendance. Their MK is still the one that won.
Every single person on that list up there lost to mk.
Ocean who I keep hearing about which from all accounts is definitley the best ROB beat m2k, probably largely in part because m2k never played a rob at that level. Ocean still Immediately lost to kakera's MK after that match showing an MK that does know how to fight him will win.
From what I know Kakera only used ICs against esam and lost and looking at Allys bracket I dont really even see where he would've used snake unless he dittoed razer or something which I still find unlikely.

Nietono who i Keep seeing being brought up as showing USA needs to learn how to master their characters better to beat MK and is also definitley the best olimar still lost to two MKs.. One being Nairo who isnt considered a top 3 MK in NA and admits to not practicing much for this tournament and then Otori.

I also dont understand the "Otori doesnt win regionals argument" because Nietono from what Im hearing along with 9b is considered to be Japans 1st/2nd best player still got waxed by him so it is very possible and also likely Otori got better? And as a result Japans potential best player lost to him convincingly.

I dont really care what happens tbh as I dont play this game anymore but I just fail to see how in anyway these tournament results can be used to help the Anti-ban argument. "The Japans Superior Metagame shows mk isnt dominant" isnt at all apparent from what Im seeing.

 

[Sorto]

@Az

You don't have to reply. Because we already both know the truth.

Apex is NOT proof of anything.

But Apex showed that it is possible that Japan may be at a higher level then the U.S.

Honestly, it seems likely based on the results that Japan is better. But let's just call them even for argument sake. I say this, because calling there metagame less evolved would be counter logical and against any proof.

They have a fully functioning and equal or greater than metagame to ours with MK being legal.

It is my opinion, as I hope it is yours, that banning a character should be a LAST RESORT.

Japan has shown that an MK legal metagame can work. This should be enough to keep him around. It is not proof the MK is not broken or banworthy. But it is more then enough proof to show that he MIGHT not be broken or banworthy (at the very least)

 

[Deleted member]

Brinstar and RC were banned at Apex and MK was just as dominant in the top 8 as ever.

Interesting point that hasn't been brought up yet.

I'm not understanding why there is all this anti-ban fuel. Like I posted earlier, you guys need to let some results come in now that the ban is official. See how the NA Metagame fares then.

 

[Nicholas1024]

If you want to talk about experience, then lets also bring up the obvious advantage Esam had since we were using the American stage list.

Sure. The Japanese love neutral stages. The IC's generally do best on neutral stages. Guess who that favors? The stream also mentioned that the Japanese ran some tournaments with the APEX ruleset specifically so they'd be prepared, and that they'd arrived a week early for even more practice. And stages are in general a lot less complicated than matchups, so what you're bringing up is a small point anyway, especially since Brinstar and RC were banned.

 

[Cassio]

Your argument is, based on a sample size of one tournament, that the US metagame is substantially behind Japan's metagame, and since we are behind we clearly don't know if MK should be banned. Further, since Japan has chosen to not-ban MK, and they are ahead of us, then clearly we should also not ban MK.

The problem is 1) the sample size of meeting Japan once a year is incredibly low. 2) Japan had how many players enter? How many did well? To say we are substantially behind I think would be an overstatement, especially considering in all other previous contests ever, going as far back as Melee, the US has been ahead. Finally, 3) A Japanese MK won...So even the best Japanese player is winning using which character? MK.

I think all the japanese players that made bracket hit top 16. Also everyone knew the stakes of this tournament. The overwhelming majority of the 500 tournaments cited dont come close to top level play and arent even worth discussing or mentioning.

This is Apex. This is the representation of the highest level of play, and everyone knew it beforehand. Your claim looks even weaker considering you nor anyone else had attempted to downplay the results until after the fact when it didnt support your opinion.

Also the best japanese player is an IC, the second best is an olimar.

I also dont understand the "Otori doesnt win regionals argument" because Nietono from what Im hearing along with 9b is considered to be Japans 1st/2nd best player still got waxed by him so it is very possible and also likely Otori got better?

So youre going to use random assumptions to support your random argument? k

 

[Omni]

lol, I dont understand, out of all their players in attendance. Their MK is still the one that won.
Every single person on that list up there lost to mk.
Ocean who I keep hearing about which from all accounts is definitley the best ROB beat m2k, probably largely in part because m2k never played a rob at that level. Ocean still Immediately lost to kakera's MK after that match showing an MK that does know how to fight him will win.
From what I know Kakera only used ICs against esam and lost and looking at Allys bracket I dont really even see where he would've used snake unless he dittoed razer or something which I still find unlikely.

- Ocean was used to show that the Japanese metagame is highly developed. Regardless if MK knows the match-up or not, US ROB's would rolflmao the thought of even punting a dent into M2K. Which just shows the calibur of players in the ROB database.

- Their MK won, yes. But it's important to note that Nietono also outplaced the US.

Nietono who i Keep seeing being brought up as showing USA needs to learn how to master their characters better to beat MK and is also definitley the best olimar still lost to two MKs.. One being Nairo who isnt considered a top 3 MK in NA and admits to not practicing much for this tournament and then Otori.

I also dont understand the "Otori doesnt win regionals argument" because Nietono from what Im hearing along with 9b is considered to be Japans 1st/2nd best player still got waxed by him so it is very possible and also likely Otori got better? And as a result Japans potential best player lost to him convincingly.

- He lost to Nairo, and then he beat Nairo. In the end, he outplaced Nairo and lost for the first time against a player he regularly beats.

- Otori's win is also important. It shows that even our MK metagame has room for improvement. There aren't any johns about us not knowing the Olimar match-up considering we have good Oli's all over the place.

 

[SpongeJordan]

It's more that we should take a lesson from sensei.

MK the character might be ban worthy, but the US hasn't achieved that level yet. According to Japan, they haven't achieved that level yet either. He's just an incredibly strong character. We should be doing everything in our power to make sure our next encounter ends with them packing, not avoiding the problem till we do this again and end up getting the balls.

 

[Sorto]

lol, I dont understand, out of all their players in attendance. Their MK is still the one that won.
Every single person on that list up there lost to mk.
Ocean who I keep hearing about which from all accounts is definitley the best ROB beat m2k, probably largely in part because m2k never played a rob at that level. Ocean still Immediately lost to kakera's MK after that match showing an MK that does know how to fight him will win.
From what I know Kakera only used ICs against esam and lost and looking at Allys bracket I dont really even see where he would've used snake unless he dittoed razer or something which I still find unlikely.

Nietono who i Keep seeing being brought up as showing USA needs to learn how to master their characters better to beat MK and is also definitley the best olimar still lost to two MKs.. One being Nairo who isnt considered a top 3 MK in NA and admits to not practicing much for this tournament and then Otori.

I also dont understand the "Otori doesnt win regionals argument" because Nietono from what Im hearing along with 9b is considered to be Japans 1st/2nd best player still got waxed by him so it is very possible and also likely Otori got better? And as a result Japans potential best player lost to him convincingly.

I dont really care what happens tbh as I dont play this game anymore but I just fail to see how in anyway these tournament results can be used to help the Anti-ban argument. "The Japans Superior Metagame shows mk isnt dominant" isnt at all apparent from what Im seeing.

The argument is.. Japan has a succesful and further evolved metagame then the US and they kept MK legal. So it is unfair to MK players for the US community to ban MK, when a more developed metagame community believes he is fair. US can still reach Japans level and maybe at that level they will not find MK to be as dominating or unfair. They are beyond us, they might know a little better. Just like with any advancement we should take heavy consideration on those who know better or are more developed then us.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

From my post on page 2:

Japan stomped us. I've been saying this for quite a while, but our metagame has room to grow. Lots of room. I mean, for ****'s sake, Mew2King lost to OCEAN. A ROB MAIN! Otori and Nietono essentially crapped on almost everyone they met in the bracket. And they earned it – Nietono was showing off a degree of mastery with Olimar that we have never seen before, and Otori basically pulled a Salem on us... with the character we thought was done evolving. If this isn't time to take a step back and reevaluate our metagame and how we view the game as a whole, I don't know when is.

And it gets worse. You know how Japan finds our "ban MK" ideas somewhere between "hilarious" and "sad"? Well guess what: this was Otori's first tournament win. He has never won a tournament before. They have to deal with multiple MKs of that caliber (him, Kakera, Masashi) at pretty much every tournament, and they beat them to the point where banning MK seems unthinkable to them. Holy ****, guys! If I was one of the top pro-ban players, especially one who uses ROB, ICs, Falco or Olimar, I would seriously be wondering what the **** I am doing wrong.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Sure. The Japanese love neutral stages. The IC's generally do best on neutral stages. Guess who that favors? The stream also mentioned that the Japanese ran some tournaments with the APEX ruleset specifically so they'd be prepared, and that they'd arrived a week early for even more practice. And stages are in general a lot less complicated than matchups, so what you're bringing up is a small point anyway, especially since Brinstar and RC were banned.

Stages do make a huge difference especially the stages they where playing on. Both players had advantages over their opponents, but it's clear that Nietono was the better player

 

[CO18]

@Sorto Yes, I understand but Japan still only uses 3 stages, we do not.

@ Omni I understand but this entire "Their metagame is more developed" is still taken out of hand a little bit. Yes, Ocean is better than any ROB in the U.S but people are still forgetting the characters we have that are more developed than theirs. From what I see, they dont have a Pikachu on Esam's level, Diddy on wyatt's level, marth on mikehaze's level etc. It goes both ways. At the end of the day Ocean still lost to Kakera's Mk which isnt surprising because Im sure Kakera is used to fighting his rob where as m2k was not just. Its not the first time someone came along with an uncommon character and started beating top MKs afterwards they just adapted.

I also understand Nietono beat Nairo afterwards but their set split was still 1-1 and considering Nietono is the best olimar, probably by a decent margin and Nairo is not the best mk or even top 3 for that matter really isnt helping the case.

Im hearing too much "Japan proves MK is beatable" when I dont recall that being the issue as to why we banned him. We have always known MK is beatable. He has multiple matchups that are close therefore, Dehf, Adhd, Esam,Richbrown and a slew of other players in the U.S consistently defeat top level MKs.

I thought the argument was that MK is by far the most dominant and Apex results doesnt do much to disprove that.

 

[Flayl]

lol, I dont understand, out of all their players in attendance. Their MK is still the one that won.
Every single person on that list up there lost to mk.
Ocean who I keep hearing about which from all accounts is definitley the best ROB beat m2k, probably largely in part because m2k never played a rob at that level. Ocean still Immediately lost to kakera's MK after that match showing an MK that does know how to fight him will win.
From what I know Kakera only used ICs against esam and lost and looking at Allys bracket I dont really even see where he would've used snake unless he dittoed razer or something which I still find unlikely.

Nietono who i Keep seeing being brought up as showing USA needs to learn how to master their characters better to beat MK and is also definitley the best olimar still lost to two MKs.. One being Nairo who isnt considered a top 3 MK in NA and admits to not practicing much for this tournament and then Otori.

I also dont understand the "Otori doesnt win regionals argument" because Nietono from what Im hearing along with 9b is considered to be Japans 1st/2nd best player still got waxed by him so it is very possible and also likely Otori got better? And as a result Japans potential best player lost to him convincingly.

I dont really care what happens tbh as I dont play this game anymore but I just fail to see how in anyway these tournament results can be used to help the Anti-ban argument. "The Japans Superior Metagame shows mk isnt dominant" isnt at all apparent from what Im seeing.

That's exactly how I look at it. The only motivation for unbanning MK is to get more practice to face Japan, the tournament didn't show MK's less powerful than we thought in any way at all.

 

[Omni]

I think the biggest argument pro-ban makes is that Metaknight is overcentralized and too dominant.

And my response is that isn't MK's fault; it is the player's fault. It isn't MK's fault that we have a bunch of character cop-out's who fall to MK and place Top 64 with MK next to their name followed by their original main.

Metaknight is the best character in the game. Hell yes, he will be dominant; especially with a widespread stagelist. But I don't think he would be nearly as dominant if the player base for other characters were more spreadout.

There isn't enough talent being put into the other characters. You don't try to force that by removing Metaknight. It defeats the purpose.

 

[Sorto]

@ co18 and flayl.

Japan is more evolved then us. They didn't prove MK was beatable, they proved a more evolved metagame can develop with MK being legal. That is the argument.

If MK was unfair or overpowered then Japan would have banned him. But they did not. They believe he is fair.

Till we are at Japans level we should not jump to the conclusion that mk is unfair or damaging to the metagame since japan proves otherwise.

Also, I know they have a lower stage list. There has been a lot of discussion from anti ban and players in general about lowering the stagelist. Not to japans levels but to less ridiculous levels. Regardless even with the american stages being legal japan still beat us. Just add that to another disadvantage they had.

Banning a character should be an almost last resort. All Apex proved is that the MK ban may disserve more looking into and time before it goes into effect.

Also top 8 and top 16 are less mk dominated then usual.

Top 8
mk
oli
mk
Ic/mk
pika/ic
snake/mk
Next 2 are 2 of the following non mk characters. Im not 100% sure on the placing.
diddy Rob oli falco snake

Or something similar to this. I am not 100% sure on results. Az just cut it off at a very biased place when he showed his list. I don't want to be biased so check top 8, top 16, top whatever and the results are not as MK dominated as usual.

 

[Juushichi]

What. Omni. What.

You know what, I'm not even going to touch that.

 

[zmx]

First off Sorto if you were going to paraphrase everything I said in my post in the Apex Results topic at least credit me!

No, but seriously I'm glad someone took the time to read my post and made a topic. I was hoping it would generate some buzz.

So yeah, there's no justification whatsoever to keep MK banned now in singles.

Let's sum up our argument for those that still don't understand:

1. Japan didn't ban MK
2. US claimed this was because their metagame wasn't as developed as much as theirs and they didn't have US level MKs to dominate all the wins.
3. This is a no longer valid justification because of two reasons. An olimar out-placed every US player including all the best MKs US claims to have. A Japanese MK proved that US does not have the best MKs.
4. When asked, the Japanese themselves considered their best players to be Nietono/9b overall. Neither of which main MK. In fact Otori has NEVER won 1st place in any tourny before this (most he's gotten is second).
5. Therefore the US needs to humble itself, realize it has a lot to learn and unban MK for singles.

 

[CO18]

I think the biggest argument pro-ban makes is that Metaknight is overcentralized and too dominant.

And my response is that isn't MK's fault; it is the player's fault. It isn't MK's fault that we have a bunch of character cop-out's who fall to MK and place Top 64 with MK next to their name followed by their original main.

Metaknight is the best character in the game. Hell yes, he will be dominant; especially with a widespread stagelist. But I don't think he would be nearly as dominant if the player base for other characters were more spreadout.

There isn't enough talent being put into the other characters. You don't try to force that by removing Metaknight. It defeats the purpose.

See this is what I disagree with, I definitley dont see it that way. Just as they have some characters that are more developed than ours I still feel as if we have the same. It is very possible if that one of our obscure characters went to japan they would beat many players that would be unexpected.

Its still alot of emphasis put on one tournament, If Nairo had gotten that last hit in game 5 instead of Otori there would be no "Nietono outplaced all US Mks" etc then Otori would be at a disadvantage having to win two sets and then everyone would be saying that a player who hardly if at all wins in america > Japan just as what theyre saying about Otori.

All in All Apex definitley didnt prove anything different IMO.

Everyone expected Nietono to do well, Alot of people picked him to win the tournament.

Noone expected Otori to be in Winners Finals considering he doesnt win in Japan, Noone also expected the same from Nairo.(One thing they both did have in common is MK however and you definitley wont see the 3rd best of any other characters zipping their way to winners finals at nationals unexpectedly.) **** happens. One hit is all that could have been needed for Nairo to have won the tourney then what would be saying? Nairo ****ted on japan and that a player not even in our top 5 wrecked all their players.

I do still feel like japan is slightly better than us as a whole but I dont think its signifcant at all and I definitley dont feel as if they did anything to prove something we didnt know about mk.

Many people expected Nietono to win so his second place finish isnt something surprising if anything at all could be said is that two players that noone expected made Top 3 with the aid of MK.

 

[Omni]

I'm just sayin', CO.

Top 8 had Olimar, Pika, Diddy, and Snake mains. Top 16 had an even larger array. All of which never touched Metaknight and yet they advanced pass the hordes of MK mains and PocketKnights and they do so on a consistent basis. The only thing that is keeping people back from doing the same is being as talented/hardworking as them.

Our player skill base sucks, IMO.

Seriously, how is it that ADHD/GNES are still the only Diddy's that are still putting in dents in tournament results? Why is there literally one Falco in the US that matters? Or one Pikachu? And after all this time no new or upcoming players have been able to match the top outliers. That, IMO, is pathetic.

 

[Sorto]

First off Sorto if you were going to paraphrase everything I said in my post in the Apex Results topic at least credit me!

No, but seriously I'm glad someone took the time to read my post and made a topic. I was hoping it would generate some buzz.

So yeah, there's no justification whatsoever to keep MK banned now in singles.

Let's sum up our argument for those that still don't understand:

1. Japan didn't ban MK
2. US claimed this was because their metagame wasn't as developed as much as theirs and they didn't have US level MKs to dominate all the wins.
3. This is a no longer valid justification because of two reasons. An olimar out-placed every US player including all the best MKs US claims to have. A Japanese MK proved that US does not have the best MKs.
4. When asked, the Japanese themselves considered their best players to be Nietono/9b overall. Neither of which main MK. In fact Otori has NEVER won 1st place in any tourny before this (most he's gotten is second).
5. Therefore the US needs to humble itself, realize it has a lot to learn and unban MK for singles.

I saw a few discussions on this and considered it myself. Sorry for no credit tho.

Check the OP its fixed.

 

[zmx]

See this is what I disagree with, I definitley dont see it that way. Just as they have some characters that are more developed than ours I still feel as if we have the same. It is very possible if that one of our obscure characters went to japan they would beat many players that would be unexpected.

Its still alot of emphasis put on one tournament, If Nairo had gotten that last hit in game 5 instead of Otori there would be no "Nietono outplaced all US Mks" etc then Otori would be at a disadvantage having to win two sets and then everyone would be saying that a player who hardly if at all wins in america > Japan just as what theyre saying about Otori.

All in All Apex definitley didnt prove anything different IMO.

Everyone expected Nietono to do well, Alot of people picked him to win the tournament.

Noone expected Otori to be in Winners Finals considering he doesnt win in Japan, Noone also expected the same from Nairo.(One thing they both did have in common is MK however and you definitley wont see the 3rd best of any other characters zipping their way to winners finals at nationals unexpectedly.) **** happens. One hit is all that could have been needed for Nairo to have won the tourney then what would be saying? Nairo ****ted on japan and that a player not even in our top 5 wrecked all their players.

I do still feel like japan is slightly better than us as a whole but I dont think its signifcant at all and I definitley dont feel as if they did anything to prove something we didnt know about mk.

Many people expected Nietono to win so his second place finish isnt something surprising if anything at all could be said is that two players that noone expected made Top 3 with the aid of MK.

It proved one thing without a doubt that certainly no US player would have agreed with. It proved that "US has all the best MKs by far" is completely and utterly false.

I've lost track of how many times I've heard this argument when Euro/Japan not banning MK was brought up.

Even if Japan is only slightly better than America (though I'll explain why this isn't likely true either), if a slightly better region doesn't need to ban MK, America has zero justification for it.

The reason this isn't likely true (Japan only being slightly better) is America had pretty much every one of their top players at that tourny. Japan only had a handful. For instance, 9b wasn't there who's often considered the best in Japan and he doesn't main MK. In other words, the odds were heavily in America's favor to win. They had all their guns. But they didn't anyway.

 

[Tomato]

A lot of the Top MKs will just quit as well. M2K said hed quit. And he is at the very least top 3 in U.S. in brawl. So you lose a lot of the best players for the possible betterment of other characters. When MK is reintroduced he may nullify these characters.

MK has been legal in Japan the whole time and there metagame is doing fine. It is most likely better than ours. But at the very least equal.

An mk legal metagame can reach our levels and even higher levels. That is what Japan proved.

In my opinion, if you're going to quit a game because a character you're familiar with is banned, you're pretty foolish. A real gamer (Not gamer in the sense of one who plays games, but someone who is competitive) would overcome this change and pick up someone else and continue to play and strive to get better. Catering to people who will simply give up obviously aren't the kind of people you want around anyway. It's all speculation, I understand that, but I think (or would at least like to think) that most people who main MK won't quit when he gets banned. They're just saying that so people take their anti-MK ban sentiments more seriously, because they have a sense that the community needs them.

Give the US Japan's stagelist and see what happens then. If they are really more developed than us, we should be following in their footsteps.

 

[zmx]

In my opinion, if you're going to quit a game because a character you're familiar with is banned, you're pretty foolish. A real gamer (Not gamer in the sense of one who plays , but someone who is competitive) would overcome this change and pick up someone else and continue to play and strive to get better. Catering to people who will simply give up obviously aren't the kind of people you want around anyway. It's all speculation, I understand that, but I think (or would at least like to think) that most people who main MK won't quit when he gets banned. They're just saying that so people take their anti-MK ban sentiments more seriously, because they have a sense that the community needs them.

Give the US Japan's stagelist and see what happens then. If they are really more developed than us, we should be following in their footsteps.

"Catering to people who will simply give up obviously aren't the kind of people you want around anyway."

I'm going to let you figure out why this statement and to an extent your entire argument is so hypocritical.

 

[CO18]

I'm just sayin', CO.

Top 8 had Olimar, Pika, Diddy, and Snake mains. Top 16 had an even larger array. All of which never touched Metaknight and yet they advanced pass the hordes of MK mains and PocketKnights and they do so on a consistent basis. The only thing that is keeping people back from doing the same is being as talented/hardworking as them.

Our player base sucks, IMO.

Seriously, how is it that ADHD/GNES are still the only Diddy's that are still putting in dents in tournament results? Why is there literally one Falco in the US that matters? Or one Pikachu? And after all this time no new or upcoming players have been able to match the top outliers. That, IMO, is pathetic.

How is this an argument though? If anything I strongly feel as if this favors pro-ban because being rediculously good is quite simply what type of skill level that is needed just to be able compete in the MK dominated metagame. It takes the top 1,2 or 3 players of a particular other TOP TIER character to compete with the 20+Mks that can place just as well as them.

It isnt pathetic at all, You act as if Japan has like 10 pits,10robs,10olimars,diddys etc that can compete at a top level here. It isnt just the U.S, thats just the nature of the game.
It takes being a top 2 ICs, falco, diddy, snake etc All top tier characters just to have a chance at placing in the top 5-8 of a national where as that isnt the case for MK.

If we were to go down the list in attendance at apex we had most likely
The Two Best Diddys, The FIVE best snakes , the Two best Falcos in NA, the SIX best Marths, 3 of the Best Warios(gluttony wasnt here), 3 of the 4 Best Ice climbers(9b not here), The FOUR best olimars, The best pikachu, The two best lucarios, The two best dededes, The Two best ZSS's, The Best GaW, The best Toon Link, 3 of the top 4 NA Foxes, The Best NA wolf, Best peach, Best DK, Best Kirby, Best ROB, Best Sonic, Two Best Ikes, Best Luigi, Best Ness, Best Yoshi, Best PT

That is pretty rediculous IMO and what happens with this as a result. Two Metaknights that was on hardly anyones list to take top 8 end up in top 3.

I dont really understand what you expect. There arent going to be a bunch of falcos on Dehfs level, or pikachus on Esam level etc because they are top players and it takes being a top player and the best player of another top tier character to compete at the highest level in this game. You cant be the 5th best Pikachu or Diddy or Falco and get top 3 at a national.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@CO18

Kakera never beats Ocean with MK. If he beats him, he only does so with ICs. There's a video of about an hour of footage where Kakera plays 10 games vs Oceans ROB with MK and Ocean wins 7-3 or something.

All of the japanese MKs have losing records against non-MK players in Japan: Otori vs Kuroobi, Rain's Falco and Nietono [Apex was the 2nd set ever that Nietono lost to Otori], Kakera against SLS and Ocean, RAIN against Shu, Brood, Masashi and Yui, El against Shu, Yui, Nietono and 9B. That's 10 different japanese, non-MK player that have a winning record against their own MKs. The whole point isn't that MK isn't too good or not anymore ... but that the USA doesn't play on a level to even know whether it's true or not. You're basically taking a shot in the dark ... banning a character out of sheer ignorance.

 

[Cassio]

I thought the argument was that MK is by far the most dominant and Apex results doesnt do much to disprove that.

This is something different. I think everyone recognizes that MK is too popular in the US. The issue is in regards to the US's mentality that we simply rely on powerful characters and tactics to win as opposed to personal skill; so people flocked to MK. Meanwhile in Japan they focused on becoming good at the game, and demonstrated that powerful mechanics don't hold up to player skill. Banning a character for being too popular was never an argument that would hold up on its own.

Also most of your statements consist entirely of assumptions and "what ifs". If nairo had won, if the US had a weird character go to Japan, etc etc. None of this stuff happened, what did happen is Japan came to the US and showed they are better than us.

You cant be the 5th best Pikachu or Diddy or Falco and get top 3 at a national.

Implying this happens with MK, lol. You forgot to go down the list and mention that the "best" MK in the US got 13th, and the second best got 5th.

 

[CO18]

@CO18

Kakera never beats Ocean with MK. If he beats him, he only does so with ICs. There's a video of about an hour of footage where Kakera plays 10 games vs Oceans ROB with MK and Ocean wins 7-3 or something.

All of the japanese MKs have losing records against non-MK players in Japan: Otori vs Kuroobi, Rain's Falco and Nietono [Apex was the 2nd set ever that Nietono lost to Otori], Kakera against SLS and Ocean, RAIN against Shu, Brood, Masashi and Yui, El against Shu, Yui, Nietono and 9B. That's 10 different japanese, non-MK player that have a winning record against their own MKs. The whole point isn't that MK isn't too good or not anymore ... but that the USA doesn't play on a level to even know whether it's true or not. You're basically taking a shot in the dark ... banning a character out of sheer ignorance.

Im pretty certain Kakera beat Ocean with MK at this tournament. Someone correct me if Im wrong though.

And Yes but Majority of our Mks here still lose to our top Non-Mk players like ESAM,Gnes,ADHD,Dehf,TKD etc. It isnt much different here and I dont think people see that, they are too immersed in what is happening with japan.

Also there is still The that they dont use counterpicks. RC and brinstar are somewhat of an issue but there are still many other stages that favor mk over other characters unless we suggest changing to only neutrals like them.
RC and brinstar were banned at apex, yet with the remaining counterpicks we still see two of the rare occurances GHEB is mentioning happen with Kakera over Ocean and Otori over nietono.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Im pretty certain Kakera beat Ocean with MK at this tournament. Someone correct me if Im wrong though.

wrong .

 

[CO18]

This is something different. I think everyone recognizes that MK is too popular in the US. The issue is in regards to the US's mentality that we simply rely on powerful characters and tactics to win as opposed to personal skill; so people flocked to MK. Meanwhile in Japan they focused on becoming good at the game, and demonstrated that powerful mechanics don't hold up to player skill. Banning a character for being too popular was never an argument that would hold up on its own.

Also most of your statements consist entirely of assumptions "what ifs". If nairo had won, if the US had a weird character go to Japan, etc etc. None of this stuff happened, what did happen is Japan came to the US and showed they are better than us.

Implying this happens with MK, lol. You forgot to go down the list and mention that the "best" MK in the US got 13th, and the second best got 5th.

Umm What, Did it not just happen at Apex???? M2k,Ally,Anti,Otori? possibly even tyrant is better than nairo.

And yes I understand what happened lmao that doesnt disprove what I said. It takes being the Top 1,2,or3 of another top tier character to compete at the highest level with mk it does not.
We see Gnes,Esam,DEHF,Razer,Haze etc failing to not make top 4 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000X more than we see it happen To M2k,Ally, or Anti.

 

[Sorto]

How is this an argument though? If anything I strongly feel as if this favors pro-ban because being rediculously good is quite simply what type of skill level that is needed just to be able compete in the MK dominated metagame. It takes the top 1,2 or 3 players of a particular other TOP TIER character to compete with the 20+Mks that can place just as well as them.

It isnt pathetic at all, You act as if Japan has like 10 pits,10robs,10olimars,diddys etc that can compete at a top level here. It isnt just the U.S, thats just the nature of the game.
It takes being a top 2 ICs, falco, diddy, snake etc All top tier characters just to have a chance at placing in the top 5-8 of a national where as that isnt the case for MK.

If we were to go down the list in attendance at apex we had most likely
The Two Best Diddys, The FIVE best snakes , the Two best Falcos in NA, the SIX best Marths, 3 of the Best Warios(gluttony wasnt here), 3 of the 4 Best Ice climbers(9b not here), The FOUR best olimars, The best pikachu, The two best lucarios, The two best dededes, The Two best ZSS's, The Best GaW, The best Toon Link, 3 of the top 4 NA Foxes, The Best NA wolf, Best peach, Best DK, Best Kirby, Best ROB, Best Sonic, Two Best Ikes, Best Luigi, Best Ness, Best Yoshi, Best PT

That is pretty rediculous IMO and what happens with this as a result. Two Metaknights that was on hardly anyones list to take top 8 end up in top 3.

I dont really understand what you expect. There arent going to be a bunch of falcos on Dehfs level, or pikachus on Esam level etc because they are top players and it takes being a top player and the best player of another top tier character to compete at the highest level in this game. You cant be the 5th best Pikachu or Diddy or Falco and get top 3 at a national.

Mk is the best character. No argument.

The argument is... does he give an unfair advantage? Japan doesn't think so.

This problem is, MKs metagame in US is far more evolved then all the other characters in US. Japan showed that further evolution of other characters and the metagame as a whole can and does exist. Through this continued evolution, Japan does not find MK banworthy.

Japan is at a further level then us, it is important to look at there metagame as well when thinking of bans.

If MK was unfair, could Japan, being further evolved then us keep him legal and have its top players playing rob, falco, ic, olimar as well?

How could you ban a character when it has been shown that as a community we still have a lot of growing to do?

If we get beyond japan and MK seems unfair then, then by all means ban him. Who knows, future metagame developments might make him more overpowered. But as it stands, japan shows that in a further evolved metagame,mk is the best but not banworthy.

A ban should be a last resort maneuver and Japan at apex showed that there may be still a few resorts left.

As hard as it is to hear, the resort may be just get better as community?

 

[Omni]

How is this an argument though? If anything I strongly feel as if this favors pro-ban because being rediculously good is quite simply what type of skill level that is needed just to be able compete in the MK dominated metagame. It takes the top 1,2 or 3 players of a particular other TOP TIER character to compete with the 20+Mks that can place just as well as them

To compete? There are only a small number of MK's that can compete with the top outliers. I think you're exaggerating.

It isnt pathetic at all, You act as if Japan has like 10 pits,10robs,10olimars,diddys etc that can compete at a top level here. It isnt just the U.S, thats just the nature of the game.
It takes being a top 2 ICs, falco, diddy, snake etc All top tier characters just to have a chance at placing in the top 5-8 of a national where as that isnt the case for MK.

That argument was referring to Japan. And that is the case of MK. How many solo-MK mains do you see taking spots? Not many. And did you see the full results and see how many of the "Top MK's" placed below Top 16?

If we were to go down the list in attendance at apex we had most likely
The Two Best Diddys, The FIVE best snakes , the Two best Falcos in NA, the SIX best Marths, 3 of the Best Warios(gluttony wasnt here), 3 of the 4 Best Ice climbers(9b not here), The FOUR best olimars, The best pikachu, The two best lucarios, The two best dededes, The Two best ZSS's, The Best GaW, The best Toon Link, 3 of the top 4 NA Foxes, The Best NA wolf, Best peach, Best DK, Best Kirby, Best ROB, Best Sonic, Two Best Ikes, Best Luigi, Best Ness, Best Yoshi, Best PT

That is pretty rediculous IMO and what happens with this as a result. Two Metaknights that was on hardly anyones list to take top 8 end up in top 3.

Deal. Though Otori was not a random Top 3. Nairo was. But you're not taking into account at all the REST of our MK mains who didn't take Top 3 like Ally, Anti, Mew2King, Tyrant, etc. who were obv top picks for contenders of top 3. That **** kinda' matters alot.

I dont really understand what you expect. There arent going to be a bunch of falcos on Dehfs level, or pikachus on Esam level etc because they are top players and it takes being a top player and the best player of another top tier character to compete at the highest level in this game. You cant be the 5th best Pikachu or Diddy or Falco and get top 3 at a national.

That is my point exactly. You have to be a top player to be on those levels. But there aren't that many compared to Metaknight because more top players are flocking to Metaknight. This is NOT inherently Metaknight's fault as a character; he simply is the best pick. And because there are more top players using Metaknight then it's simple math that he will be the most dominant.

And what I'm suggesting is that the skill gap between #1 Falco and #2 Falco is ginormous. It's like... there are the outliers... then an incredibly large skill gap, then there's the next guy.

So in summary.

The majority of our talented players are migrating to the best character in the game. Thus the best character in the game is dominating the metagame. Thus, somehow, that somehow becomes a reason to ban Metaknight. Yet, there is clear evidence that talented players can do the same with other characters. However, they choose not to do so. These outliers are walking around with a "hey, if i can do it why cant u" sign for 3 years but they simply aren't getting the character talent base to support them.

Being the most popular character in the game to use because you are the best character in the game, in my opinion, is not a solid reason for removing them. He should be dominant and the metagame should revolve around him because he is #1. And yet, there is another population of players (Japan) who have talented players that have migrated to other characters and have shown that it is clearly possible to overcome Metaknight.

 

[zmx]

This is something different. I think everyone recognizes that MK is too popular in the US. The issue is in regards to the US's mentality that we simply rely on powerful characters and tactics to win as opposed to personal skill; so people flocked to MK. Meanwhile in Japan they focused on becoming good at the game, and demonstrated that powerful mechanics don't hold up to player skill. Banning a character for being too popular was never an argument that would hold up on its own.

Also most of your statements consist entirely of assumptions "what ifs". If nairo had won, if the US had a weird character go to Japan, etc etc. None of this stuff happened, what did happen is Japan came to the US and showed they are better than us.

Implying this happens with MK, lol.

Exactly, the only reason MK is that popular in America is people think he's a win button. If he WAS a win button the top 5 placings of every tourny would be random and different each time. But when it's the SAME 5-8 top MKs that consistently do well this clearly suggests it's the player and not the character.

 

[CO18]

Mk is the best character. No argument.

The argument is... does he give an unfair advantage? Japan doesn't think so.

This problem is, MKs metagame in US is far more evolved then all the other characters in US. Japan showed that further evolution can exist. Through this continued evolution, Japan does not find MK banworthy.

Japan is at a further level then us, it is important to look at there metagame as well when thinking of bans.

If MK was unfair, could Japan, being further evolved then us keep him legal and have its top players playing rob, falco, ic, olimar as well?

How could you ban a character when it has been shown that as a community we still have a lot of growing to do?

If we get beyond japan and MK seems unfair then, then by all means ban him. Who knows, future metagame developments might make him more overpowered. But as it stands, japan shows that in a further evolved metagame,mk is the best but on banworthy, based on the rules they use.

A ban should be a last resort maneuver and Japan at apex showed that there may be still a few resorts left.

As hard as it is to hear, the resort may be just get better as community?

I understand what you're saying but I don't think we would be able to really compare unless we started playing on only Bf,FD,Yoshis for a long period of time as they do because with our current ruleset Their unexpected MK still won.

Its very possible if we played on only 3 stages Mk would be a little less dominant here and vice versa if they started playing with counterpicks MK would be more dominant there. But from the looks of it seems the community would definitley favor an MK ban over resorting to 3 stages.

 

[Cassio]

Umm What, Did it not just happen at Apex???? M2k,Ally,Anti,Otori? possibly even tyrant is better than nairo.

And yes I understand what happened lmao that doesnt disprove what I said. It takes being the Top 1,2,or3 of another top tier character to compete at the highest level with mk it does not.
We see Gnes,Esam,DEHF,Razer,Haze etc failing to not make top 4 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000X more than we see it happen To M2k,Ally, or Anti.

Anti rarely makes top 4. Ally often relies on secondaries. M2k is the only MK solo main whos reliably made top 4. I think youre severly underrating the skill needed to achieve these placements even as MK. I could understand your argument about nairo if any of those 3 showed up in the top 4, but for apex 2012 he was the best MK in the US. Im not sure how thats disputable.

And none of them are on Otoris level apparently.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Im pretty certain Kakera beat Ocean with MK at this tournament. Someone correct me if Im wrong though.

And Yes but Majority of our Mks here still lose to our top Non-Mk players like ESAM,Gnes,ADHD,Dehf,TKD etc. It isnt much different here and I dont think people see that, they are too immersed in what is happening with japan.

But whom of them has a winning record against MKs on the same level?

ESAM - slighly negative vs M2K, losing to Anti and Otori, evenish [?] vs Tyrant
Gnes - he doesn't have a strong history vs MK as far as I'm aware? Idk does he have a winnig record vs somebody good?
ADHD - has lost the last 2391231 sets to M2K and Anti but might have a slight edge over Nairo overall
DEHF - what does he have? Other than SoCal non-Tyrant I see nothing special
TKD - even with Tyrant

... all in all that's really not a lot compared to the records the japanese have vs their MKs:

Nietono - 5-2 vs Otori or better, evenish with Rain, slight lead over El
Yui - ~15-0 vs El, solid winning streak vs Rain [about 6-1 I'd guess], 1 or 2 - 0 vs Otori
9B - between 3 and 5 - 0 against all the MKs in Japan
Shu - about 5-0 vs Eru, 3-1 vs Rain, evenish vs Otori

... that's what I call "positive records" vs MK players. I don't quite see how american non-MKs match those results =/

 

[Omni]

But from the looks of it seems the community would definitley favor an MK ban over resorting to 3 stages.

I think "the community" would favor an MK ban over banning Brinstar/RC.

We shouldn't go there.

 

[zmx]

I understand what you're saying but I don't think we would be able to really compare unless we started playing on only Bf,FD,Yoshis for a long period of time as they do because with our current ruleset Their unexpected MK still won.

Its very possible if we played on only 3 stages Mk would be a little less dominant here and vice versa if they started playing with counterpicks MK would be more dominant there. But from the looks of it seems the community would definitley favor an MK ban over resorting to 3 stages.

3 stages? What exactly do you mean?

The only stages banned for Apex were Brinstar and RC (which many Americans believe should never have been legal in the first place).

Nietono and Otori won on stages like Frigate. They didn't need to John about unfamiliar stages causing them to lose. It was mentioned on livestream that they actually had pre-Apex tournys with Apex rules to practice. They put in the work.