Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Sorto]

I understand what you're saying but I don't think we would be able to really compare unless we started playing on only Bf,FD,Yoshis for a long period of time as they do because with our current ruleset Their unexpected MK still won.

Its very possible if we played on only 3 stages Mk would be a little less dominant here and vice versa if they started playing with counterpicks MK would be more dominant there. But from the looks of it seems the community would definitley favor an MK ban over resorting to 3 stages.

He was unexpected to win. But he is still very good and was expected to do well. And it is my understanding that he beat nienteno on relatively neutral stages.

Also, as a person which is more fair? Removing stages or characters. In the past aka melee, stages were banned not characters.

3 stages is super small. But perhaps a more neutral stage list, somewhere inbetween us and Japan would be a better choice.

As a community we have solutions that may avoid the need for a ban. But we avoid using them.

Japan came here and olimar got second out of how many competitors? Even with our ridiculous stage list and not normally playing on those stages. There metagame is way beyond ours bc olimar got taken to random stages he doesn't play on and still won sets. Or how about robs, oli, pika, ic, diddy all in the top rankings with a weird stage list.

We have options that may not be so extreme that could keep mk unbanned. We should atleast look into them. What about 5 or 7 legal stages? Ya know?

 

[Sorto]

Umm What, Did it not just happen at Apex???? M2k,Ally,Anti,Otori? possibly even tyrant is better than nairo.

And yes I understand what happened lmao that doesnt disprove what I said. It takes being the Top 1,2,or3 of another top tier character to compete at the highest level with mk it does not.
We see Gnes,Esam,DEHF,Razer,Haze etc failing to not make top 4 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000X more than we see it happen To M2k,Ally, or Anti.

M2k and ally are generally considered better players then the others you mentioned above. Just saying. Ally was making top 4 consistently with snake before his mk days.

 

[CO18]

I think "the community" would favor an MK ban over banning Brinstar/RC.

We shouldn't go there.

What? If the community would favor an MK ban over banning brinstar and RC, I highly doubt they would favor banning even MORE stages than banning MK.

@ ZMX, I think you completely missed the point of my post.
@ Cassio, Nairo being the highest placing MK at apex doesnt make him the best. What Kind of sense does that even make. Fact is Nairo would be considered about 5th best Mk and he got top 3. Otori isnt the best japanese player at apex because of one tournament. Im simply stating that players not in the top 1,2,of 3 of MK can get top 3 at nationals as Nairo did whereas that won't be happening for any other character.

@GHEB what you're saying is true, Our Non-MK players definitley don't have those sort of dominating records against MKs though they do frequently beat them, gnes included. In the end, they still use 3 stages. Things would be much harder for MKs trying to defeat ADHD,Gnes, or Larry if they could only play on FD, BF, or SV.

Im guessing Japanese players dont ban stages in their ruleset which would mean MKs would be FORCED to play against them on FD as well.

@ Sorto I dont really have an opinion on whether MK should be banned over stages, as I said I dont really have that much care in that matter I was just speaking from what it seems the community would prefer.
Also, yes I definitley agree Nietono is the best olimar but Richbrown has had a similar performance at an MLG in the past and the stages at MLG were even worse than those at apex. One tournament shouldnt be weighed so heavily. Also allys results started to become way less consistent with snake which is obviously part of the reason he switched to mk.

 

[Sorto]

What? If the community would favor an MK ban over banning brinstar and RC, I highly doubt they would favor banning even MORE stages than banning MK.

@ ZMX, I think you completely missed the point of my post.
@ Cassio, Nairo being the highest placing MK at apex doesnt make him the best. What Kind of sense does that even make. Fact is Nairo would be considered about 5th best Mk and he got top 3. Otori isnt the best japanese player at apex because of one tournament. Im simply stating that players not in the top 1,2,of 3 of MK can get top 3 at nationals as Nairo did whereas that won't be happening for any other character.

@GHEB what you're saying is true, Our Non-MK players definitley don't have those sort of dominating records against MKs though they do frequently beat them, gnes included. In the end, they still use 3 stages. Things would be much harder for MKs trying to defeat ADHD,Gnes, or Larry if they could only play on FD, BF, or SV.

Im guessing Japanese players dont ban stages in their ruleset which would mean MKs would be FORCED to play against them on FD as well.

@ Sorto I dont really have an opinion on whether MK should be banned over stages, as I said I dont really have that much care in that matter I was just speaking from what it seems the community would prefer.
Also, yes I definitley agree Nietono is the best olimar but Richbrown has had a similar performance at an MLG in the past and the stages at MLG were even worse than those at apex. One tournament shouldnt be weighed so heavily.

Im weighting it heavily for this reason. And this is my reasoning and we may agree/disagree here.

A character should be banned if without a doubt he is found to be unfair. Like a criminal convicted of a crime.

This tournament is like evidence, that maybe our accusation was wrong. It is not proof but it provide a decent possibility.

In a future, not to far off metagame, mk might not be op. The best character, but not op.

The burden of proof is on the accuser trying to prove mk is banworthy without a doubt.

Well I have doubts. And after apex, alot of people should. And perhaps if people stop and think, its almost like we have a hung jury.

Which a hung jury would be means for unbanning him.

You follow?

 

[Cassio]

CO18 youre doing a poor job of explaining why its MK that allows these players to do well and holds back other characters; as opposed to MK simply being extremely popular among skilled players and the skilled players simply outplaying those who dont play MK. Those are essentially two equally valid conclusions, and the results of Apex seem to heavily imply the latter.

I saw ADHD, an American using the second best character in the game and who has a ton of experience vs olimar, get decimated by an olimar. I cant say I believe in the skill of our non-MK players over the japanese to reflect the peak of brawls metagame. Or our MK players for that matter.

 

[wendell]

if america run less and play more they would beat japan,the timer is the problem
10 min timer

 

[Kewkky]

Why would I want to waste time learning other characters when MK is the best option? It is smart to choose the best option, so I'm using MK from now on. /sarcasm

That may have been sarcasm, but it's the truth. Why waste time with less effective options when we can learn MK, the best choice? Or at least keep him as a secondary. That's why our metagame can't develop much, we have people flocking to MK like bees on honey instead of staying with their character or choosing a different top tier. What we get is a bunch of MKs fighting each other, knocking everyone else off the bracket, except the select few who can win tourneys with non-MK characters. We stagnate ourselves by choosing the best option, this isn't like Melee where the rest of the top tiers and some of the high tiers have an edge over each other in certain regards, here MK is the easiest to improve with AND the best as an overall option. In Melee Fox isn't like Falco or Jiggs or Peach or Sheik or Marth, they're all strong and weak in different areas. MK is just the best choice, clearly.

This ban can be temporary if people show desire to change back to how it was before. A temp ban would've had a set date, a normal ban just needs a supermajority to change the status quo. No ban is truly permanent until the next installment coms out and the game's competitive scene dies while the ban is still in effect.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That may have been sarcasm, but it's the truth. Why waste time with less effective options when we can learn MK, the best choice? Or at least keep him as a secondary. That's why our metagame can't develop much, we have people flocking to MK like bees on honey instead of staying with their character or choosing a different top tier.

Why doesn't this happen in every fighting game? Why, after it was determined without a doubt that Sagat was the best in SF4, were there still Akumas, Ryus, Balrogs, and god knows how many other characters running around in the metagame? Why, in Guilty Gear, did anyone not use Eddie? Why, in AE, were there only two yuns in evo grand finals despite yun clearly being the best character in the game?

Why does this only seem to be a problem in the American Brawl community?!

 

[Kewkky]

I can tell you I honestly have no clue. :L

 

[Xnpio]

I feel like now would be a perfect time to post the video that Cassio posted in a different thread last night:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw2g1PRYPrA

Speaks of EXACTLY what we're talking about right now.

 

[zmx]

Why would I want to waste time learning other characters when MK is the best option? It is smart to choose the best option, so I'm using MK from now on. /sarcasm

That may have been sarcasm, but it's the truth. Why waste time with less effective options when we can learn MK, the best choice? Or at least keep him as a secondary. That's why our metagame can't develop much, we have people flocking to MK like bees on honey instead of staying with their character or choosing a different top tier. What we get is a bunch of MKs fighting each other, knocking everyone else off the bracket, except the select few who can win with non-MK characters. We stagnate ourselves by choosing the best option, this isn't like Melee where the rest of the top tiers and some of the high tiers have an edge over each other in certain regards, here MK is the easiest to improve with AND the best as an overall option. In Melee Fox isn't like Falco or Jiggs or Peach or Sheik or Marth, they're all strong and weak in different areas. MK is just the best choice, clearly.

This ban can be temporary if people show desire to change back to how it was before. A temp ban would've had a set date, a normal ban just needs a supermajority to change the status quo. No ban is truly permanent until the next installment coms out and the game's competitive scene dies while the ban is still in effect.

This same logic can be applied to any fighting game but they don't think like that and neither should the smash community.

I repeat: Nietono/9b are considered the overall best players in Japan and neither uses MK. As was mentioned earlier 9b has a winning record against all the best Japanese MK players.

So it's obvious this mentality of choosing the best character because no other character is worth learning will not lead to success.

And even with MK legal not all top American players think like this. Esam/Razer out-placed nearly every "top US MK" with Pika/Snake.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I can tell you I honestly have no clue. :L

The point I'm trying to make is that the problem isn't the character: this could happen to any top-tier, "best in the game"-style character. The problem is simply with the mindset that the American brawl (not even smash – melee doesn't really have this problem either) community has. I don't understand it, and it's not going to be easy to fix, and until it is, I don't really see how we can keep MK legal in the states.

 

[CO18]

CO18 youre doing a poor job of explaining why its MK that allows these players to do well and holds back other characters; as opposed to MK simply being extremely popular among skilled players and the skilled players simply outplaying those who dont play MK. Those are essentially two equally valid conclusions, and the results of Apex seem to heavily imply the latter.

I saw ADHD, an American using the second best character in the game and who has a ton of experience vs olimar, get decimated by an olimar. I cant say I believe in the skill of our non-MK players. Or our MK players for that matter.

It is definitley a fact that mk is what allows them to do so well, its the reason they're using them. This is obvious and isnt really arguable. I definitley do agree they are still top players but mk obviously helps them achieve consistent results they would otherwise not be able to achieve. He is the best character so using him is more advantageous. That isnt deniable.

Nietono is the best olimar, noone is disputing that so its not unreasonable he beats adhd possibly even badly but its still one match and we still have players that are ahead of the japanese at an array of characters. Ocean is definitley the best Rob, I dont think anyone would dispute that especially since him beating m2k "shows our non-mk metagame is underdeveloped" and he got DOUBLE three stocked by ADHD according to what people are saying, however i doubt anyone would place a bet the same result would happen next match.

Too much emphasis is being placed on one tournament, which some think is justifiable which is fine by me I just disagree. Rain and especially Brood dominated last apex where as they did MUCH MUCH worse this time. Otori and Nietono getting 1st and 2nd doesnt mean U.S metagame is like in a depression as you guys are making it seem. It isnt that surprising as they are top players and anyone can lose to anyone on a given day.

Their ruleset is still different and thus their results regarding MK will be different, 9b would have a much more difficult time if otori was able to take him to RC.

I would not at all be surprised to see Ally,ADHD,Anti,and M2k travel to japan and 2 of the 4 taking top 2. Its just A LOT of emphasis being put on one tourney.
Again, I do think Japan is better but ultimately Japan being better doesnt mean their opinion on Metaknight should change ours. Their opinions are skewed because of the fact they play on 3 stages thus he isnt as dominating and still with our ruleset an Mk won which does nothing to disprove mk should be banned.
Him winning and japan potentially being better than NA even by a significant margin doesnt change the fact their ruleset involves 3 stages which would significantly alter mk's dominance.

As I said, IDC but I doubt the community would rather resort to 3 stages over overturning the ban but in all other regards these results have done nothing to disprove MK should be banned.

 

[zmx]

It is definitley a fact that mk is what allows them to do so well, its the reason they're using them. This is obvious and isnt really arguable. I definitley do agree they are still top players but mk obviously helps them achieve consistent results they would otherwise not be able to achieve. He is the best character so using him is more advantageous. That isnt deniable.

Nietono is the best olimar, noone is disputing that so its not unreasonable he beats adhd possibly even badly but its still one match and we still have players that are ahead of the japanese at an array of characters. Ocean is definitley the best Rob, I dont think anyone would dispute that especially since him beating m2k "shows our non-mk metagame is underdeveloped" and he got DOUBLE three stocked by ADHD according to what people are saying, however i doubt anyone would place a bet the same result would happen next match.

Too much emphasis is being placed on one tournament, which some think is justifiable which is fine by me I just disagree. Rain and especially Brood dominated last apex where as they did MUCH MUCH worse this time. Otori and Nietono getting 1st and 2nd doesnt mean U.S metagame is like in a as you guys are making it seem. It isnt that surprising as they are top players and anyone can lose to anyone on a given day.

Their ruleset is still different and thus their results regarding MK will be different, 9b would have a much more difficult time if otori was able to take him to RC.

I would not at all be surprised to see Ally,ADHD,Anti,and M2k travel to japan and 2 of the 4 taking top 2. Its just A LOT of emphasis being put on one tourney.
Again, I do think Japan is better but ultimately Japan being better doesnt mean their opinion on Metaknight should change ours. Their opinions are skewed because of the fact they play on 3 stages thus he isnt as dominating and still with our ruleset an Mk won which does nothing to disprove mk should be banned.
Him winning and japan potentially being better than NA even by a significant margin doesnt change the fact their ruleset involves 3 stages which would significantly alter mk's dominance.

As I said, IDC but I doubt the community would rather resort to 3 stages over overturning the ban but in all other regards these results have done nothing to disprove MK should be banned.

You ignored my point. I'm going to assume you missed it. Japan beat US at Apex and there were a lot more than 3 stages available. They won crucial matches on Frigate.

So please don't claim to unban MK we need to leave only 3 stages. The only ones that arguably need to be taken off are RC and Brinstar.

And last I checked it makes far more sense to take off 2 over-polarizing stages than a whole character.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

I'm in favor of the ban still. No opinion changed. Although, if he were to be unbanned, i'd like to see him almost have a 25% handicap or something around that area.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The timer should at least be increased to 9 min before banning MK. 3 min a stock

 

[CO18]

You ignored my point. I'm going to assume you missed it. Japan beat US at Apex and there were a lot more than 3 stages available. They won crucial matches on Frigate.

So please don't claim to unban MK we need to leave only 3 stages. The only ones that arguably need to be taken off are RC and Brinstar.

And last I checked it makes far more sense to take off 2 over-polarizing stages than a whole character.

No I didnt ignore your point as what you said has absolutely no effect on my argument. Nor Did I ever say to unban MK we need to leave only 3 stages.

If this is what you want I change my stance.

JAPAN IS BY FAR AND AWAY better than the u.s in every aspect of brawl.
With this said, considering they play on 3 stages, Mks dominance as a result will be different than if they used counter picking stages therefore their opinions on MK dominance will be different and cant really be used as a basis for our decisions.

Apex otherwise did nothing to disprove MK should be unbanned as he dominated in both singles and doubles.

So unless someone can provide evidence that playing on 3 stages has 0 effect on MK dominance as opposed to our current ruleset its /thread and I find that unlikely to happen.

And last I checked I said I didnt care what you think makes sense in regards to banning stages or MK. I simply stated that it is unlikely the community will choose the former.
I may be wrong but unless a new poll is created and the community does then there is 0 reason to unban him at this point.

 

[Cassio]

It is definitley a fact that mk is what allows them to do so well, its the reason they're using them. This is obvious and isnt really arguable. I definitley do agree they are still top players but mk obviously helps them achieve consistent results they would otherwise not be able to achieve. He is the best character so using him is more advantageous. That isnt deniable.

Why would anyone take this as undeniable fact when we just saw these MKs get stuffed by the japanese? Like I said theres two plausible options and you want me to ignore all evidence and simply claim MK is the cause just because?

It wasnt just one set that the japanese dominated our non-MKs, they sat on our two best ICs and our best falco too. They beat esam, dabuz, larry, m2k, adhd, basically every top player you listed. And your argument is that next time maybe theyll win; or maybe our MKs would go to japan and win when theres not even a shred of evidence for any of this.

I dont understand how you can expect your argument to hold weight with all these assumptions. I understand if this is your opinion and personal beliefs but it contradicts results.

 

[CO18]

Why would anyone take this as undeniable fact when we just saw these MKs get stuffed by the japanese? Like I said theres two plausible options and you want me to ignore all evidence and simply claim MK is the cause just because?

It wasnt just one set that the japanese dominated our non-MKs, they sat on our two best ICs and our best falco too. They beat esam, dabuz, larry, m2k, adhd, basically every top player you listed. And your argument is that next time maybe theyll win; or maybe our MKs would go to japan and win when theres not even a shred of evidence for any of this.

I dont understand how you can expect your argument to hold weight with all these assumptions. I understand if this is your opinion and personal beliefs but it contradicts results.

Not really going to argue anymore as all of that is opinion is irrelevant. If you can prove my previous post is incorrect which I know you cant. Ill take a look at this thread again because Im tired of arguing about who is better since frankly it doesn't matter.

 

[Cassio]

Youre correct, I cant prove speculation and assumptions wrong. The irrefutable arguments

 

[zmx]

CO18 in a nutshell:

Whatever you say (like the fact that the Japanese beat every top US MK) is irrelevant because it's just an opinion.

Whatever I say (surely if our players went over there they could win too) is clearly an irrefutable fact and not pure speculation with no basis.

 

[CO18]

Youre correct, I cant prove speculation and assumptions wrong. The irrefutable arguments

Yeah you cant, you also know it to be true but since you can't come up with a valid argument as it is impossible at this point so I'm not surprised this is your response. There is absolutely noone who can say Mk is just as good on BF,YI, and FD only as he is with counterpicks unless they are actually mentally ******** and Im going to bet on you not being a ******.

CO18: In a nutshell now.

"Prove MK is just as good on BF,YI,and FD only as he is on CPs." "Oh wait not gonna happen"

/thread

/logs off

 

[Nicholas1024]

I think banning Rainbow cruise and Brinstar would reduce MK's dominance by a fair bit, since they're VERY strong counter picks against a lot of characters, and you can't ban both of them. If both players are the same level (which is what would happen at the very top of the tourney scene), it's just very unlikely for an Olimar/Falco/Diddy/Snake/IC's (which have some of the best match ups against MK) to win on either of those. This means that in a 2/3 match, you almost have to win games 1 and 3 on a neutral (or near-neutral) stage to actually take the set, OR pull out a second character who you can win with on that stage. Just look at the loser's finals from last APEX, although M2K could time out Brood on Rainbow cruise (his first counter pick), Brood had the lead the entire last game on Delfino Plaza (M2K's second counter pick.)

 

[Cassio]

I dont understand what your fixation is with just "expecting" us to believe things are true. That sort of mindset is ignorant (no offense, it just is).

 

[zmx]

"you also know it to be true"

We know your entire argument which is based off of "What-if scenarios" is true?

America needs to stop deluding itself.

Here's the thing. We don't NEED to disprove ANYTHING. It's you that needs to first present proof which you haven't done for the notion that Japan would've banned MK if they had our stage list.

For example, you can't say Unicorns exist because no one has proved they don't. This is called a logical fallacy.

 

[Xyro77]

I voted for the ban and im glad its finally happening.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

For example, you can't say Unicorns exist because no one has proved they don't.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I hate you so much right now.

 

[Chuee]

With this said, considering they play on 3 stages,

Quit throwing this out there, it's wrong.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

I hate you so much right now.

But really, if unbanned, something along the lines of 25% handicap should be acceptable.

 

[CO18]

"you also know it to be true"

We know your entire argument which is based off of "What-if scenarios" is true?

America needs to stop deluding itself.

Here's the thing. We don't NEED to disprove ANYTHING. It's you that needs to first present proof which you haven't done for the notion that Japan would've banned MK if they had our stage list.

For example, you can't say Unicorns exist because no one has proved they don't. This is called a logical fallacy.

When did I say this? Now you're jumping to conclusions based off my argument which definitley wasn't that.

@Chuee ?Please enlighten me to how that is wrong.

 

[zmx]

"So unless someone can provide evidence that playing on 3 stages has 0 effect on MK dominance as opposed to our current ruleset its /thread and I find that unlikely to happen."

With this statement you are implying two things:

1. MK is more dominant with more than the 3 neutrals.
2. This would be enough to warrant Japan banning MK.

But like I've said we are not the ones that need to provide evidence. We are not putting forward a new notion. We are simply stating that as of now MK being banned in singles is not justified for the argument of US having the best metagame/MKs has been shown to be false.

 

[Chuee]

@Chuee ?Please enlighten me to how that is wrong.

because they don't play on 3 stages only?
They play on at least 5 and possibly more.

 

[Nairo]

im prob a top 3 mk now co18 O:

 

[Spelt]

The point I'm trying to make is that the problem isn't the character: this could happen to any top-tier, "best in the game"-style character. The problem is simply with the mindset that the American brawl (not even smash – melee doesn't really have this problem either) community has. I don't understand it, and it's not going to be easy to fix, and until it is, I don't really see how we can keep MK legal in the states.

This is just one giant excuse because you realize banning him is the right choice but you don't want to own up to it.

But really, if unbanned, something along the lines of 25% handicap should be acceptable.

No. Stop it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

im prob a top 3 mk now co18 O:

Gonna have to agree here. Nairo was not considerably below M2K or Ally before APEX. Maybe a step behind, but never by a wide margin, at least not since like August.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

im prob a top 3 mk now co18 O:

There's always room for improvement.

 

[Orion*]

If MK's dominance was because of an under evolved metagame, he was the one causing that, so he should still be banned imo.

He didnt cause our metagame to be under evolved. Our bad attitude torwards improvement did.

 

[CO18]

"So unless someone can provide evidence that playing on 3 stages has 0 effect on MK dominance as opposed to our current ruleset its /thread and I find that unlikely to happen."

With this statement you are implying two things:

1. MK is more dominant with more than the 3 neutrals.
2. This would be enough to warrant Japan banning MK.

But like I've said we are not the ones that need to provide evidence. We are not putting forward a new notion. We are simply stating that as of now MK being banned in singles is not justified for the argument of US having the best metagame/MKs has been shown to be false.

No now you're jumping to conclusions.
I have never said if Japan played with counterpicks they would ban mk.
I simply said we cant base our opinion on whether or not to ban mk because he isnt as dominant in japan. They have a different ruleset, they dont play on counterpicks which it is common knowledge Cps help Metaknight.


@chueee wtf are you talking about rofl. They play on 3 stages.

Stagelist

Final Destination
SmashVille
Battlefield

Reason for this
------------------------------
Japan believes that neutrals are prime because nothing out of the ordinary or transitional happens. It is also been this way since Brawl came out in Japan.

The Simple answer: Nothing about stages has changed.

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=251

 

[Toronto Joe]

I'm in favor of the ban still. No opinion changed. Although, if he were to be unbanned, i'd like to see him almost have a 25% handicap or something around that area.

wtf LMAOOOO