Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The claim that Japan is not better than the rest of the world in brawl is, after this tournament, ridiculous. I'm sorry, but "just one tournament" where they step all over essentially every one of the best players in the USA?

 

[AlphaZealot]

MK just took more than half of top 8 and 2 of top 3 at the biggest national...and somehow people think this is a case for him getting unbanned?

Just because the Japanese don't want to ban him (which we have always known) doesn't mean anything here in America where we, once again, have a tournament dominated by MK. We've always had a player or two break into things too - this isn't ESAM's first time in top 4 at a huge tournament, or an Olimar's first time doing work (Brood, Rich Brown, even Dabuz recently). Nothing's changed: if anything the argument for pro-ban is even stronger when you consider anti-ban's entire stance pre-tournament was "what will happen if MK loses?". MK didn't lose: he won and he dominated. Again.

 

[M@v]

The claim that Japan is not better than the rest of the world in brawl is, after this tournament, ridiculous. I'm sorry, but "just one tournament" where they step all over essentially every one of the best players in the USA?

They're definitely better, but not by leaps and bounds. ESAM and Nairo held their own against them, especially Nairo beating Nietono.

 

[Cassio]

AZ that was one of the most distorted interpretations of Apex Ive seen, and I just saw several Niddo posts, lmao. Pretty much every professional Ive seen thus far has disagreed with you.

You cant treat America as its own isolated metagame anymore. Youre trying to do this to save face and it looks really silly.

 

[AlphaZealot]

No. Everyone just keeps saying what the Japanese think, when we already knew
1) They don't have MK banned
2) They were on par with the US

You cant treat the US as its own isolated metagame anymore.

1) It is its own isolated metagame: unless you are also advocating the entire world use the exact same ruleset as the Japanese use
2) One tournament a year when we interact with the Japanese should not dictate what the other 500 tournaments a year do.

 

[Nicholas1024]

@AlphaZealot
I believe the argument goes something like this.

1. The Japanese MK's are clearly just as good as our MK's.
2. The Japanese MK's do not dominate the Japanese metagame.
3. Therefore, if the USA non-MK players were in general as good as the Japanese equivalents, MK would not be dominating our metagame.
4. So, rather than complain about MK being broken, we should suck it up and get better.

Also, does anyone know how close ESAM vs Nietono and ESAM vs Otori were stock-count wise? I wasn't able to watch those sets.

 

[Deleted member]

AZ that was one of the most distorted interpretations of Apex Ive seen, and I just saw several Niddo posts, lmao. Pretty much every professional Ive seen thus far has disagreed with you.

You cant treat America as its own isolated metagame anymore.

You're really saying that America's Metagame = Japan's?

Do you realize what you're saying? Look at their stagelist. Look at their best characters.

 

[Cassio]

AZ; Saying that the argument is about what the japanese think is a major distortion.

And no one is advocating that the world use the same exact ruleset, but tbqh the fact that YOU of all people say this is BS (no offense). If thats the case why are you taking such drastic measures to eliminate ruleset variation when the coasts play just as infrequently as we play the japanese? Do you know that only 40% of socal wants MK banned? 75% want RC and Brinstar banned? Tell me why dont your "isolated metagames" come into play here?

That aside, the point is that as Americans were missing something that the japanese have, and as a result our metagame has become inferior. Not acknowledging this when we decide to ban MK essentially turns brawl into a casual fighter as a result.

 

[Meru.]

That aside, the point is that as Americans were missing something that the japanese have, and as a result our metagame has become inferior.

Has become? What makes you think it wasn't inferior in the first place?

 

[Cassio]

Good point, lol

 

[Omni]

I just don't get why you wouldn't ban ridiculous stages like Brinstar/Rainbow as opposed to banning Metaknight. Or at least try and test the results.

I could see Metaknight being banned over Brinstar/Rainbow < 1 year into the game. But 3 years in? The metagame is heavily volatile and removing stages at that point makes much more sense to upholding the metagame than removing Metaknight.

Nietono the best in Japan. Nietono outplacing the entire US region. Otori catching a break and beating Nietono (which normally does not happen). The fact is our metagame is stale because we don't have players like Ocean or Nietono or Kakera or Brood taking their characters to completely new levels. US flock to Metaknight but that doesn't constitute him banworthy simply because the mass are too lazy/untalented to level X's metagame.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

MK just took more than half of top 8 and 2 of top 3 at the biggest national...and somehow people think this is a case for him getting unbanned?

You know, if I didn't know better, I'd assume that you hadn't actually read the arguments being presented.

@AlphaZealot
I believe the argument goes something like this.

1. The Japanese MK's are clearly just as good as our MK's.
2. The Japanese MK's do not dominate the Japanese metagame.
3. Therefore, if the USA non-MK players were in general as good as the Japanese equivalents, MK would not be dominating our metagame.
4. So, rather than complain about MK being broken, we should suck it up and get better.

Also, does anyone know how close ESAM vs Nietono and ESAM vs Otori were stock-count wise? I wasn't able to watch those sets.

Actually, it gets better. The Japanese MKs are not just as good, they're really kinda on another level. Like, seriously, look at Otori's movement and tell me that doesn't make you think of the Concentrate tournament where Salem came out of left field and made his character look like a cross between Melee Fox and Nick Riddle. Nietono is kinda similar, although it shows itself not by showing entirely new dimensions of movement and accuracy, but rather in just overall mastery of the character. Oh yeah, and Otori has never won a tournament in Japan. Let that sink in for a moment – this guy essentially destroyed the most stacked US tournament ever, and he can't win a regional in his home country.

Of course, that's just one argument – the other one is that our metagame is simply not there yet, especially our non-MKs. Nobody in the states comes even close to the same level of mastery that Nietono has over his character with anyone other than MK, and even that is questionable. NOBODY. Maybe, just maybe, if people would decide not to take the easy way out and instead really work, put the same work in that any other top player can and should, we wouldn't have this problem!

 

[Omni]

My face when I saw BPC say almost the same thing as me.

 

[M@v]

@AlphaZealot
I believe the argument goes something like this.

1. The Japanese MK's are clearly just as good as our MK's.
2. The Japanese MK's do not dominate the Japanese metagame.
3. Therefore, if the USA non-MK players were in general as good as the Japanese equivalents, MK would not be dominating our metagame.
4. So, rather than complain about MK being broken, we should suck it up and get better.

Also, does anyone know how close ESAM vs Nietono and ESAM vs Otori were stock-count wise? I wasn't able to watch those sets.

I was the one recording esam vs otori. I believe game 1 was a 2stock and game two was a 1 stock..i'll have to double check when I'm home. On that note too, I'm going to get those sets up tonight.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nobody in the states comes even close to the same level of mastery that Nietono has over his character with anyone other than MK, and even that is questionable. NOBODY.

How do you justify making such a sweeping, drastic statement?

 

[Cassio]

On stream they said ESAM Otori was really close.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

My face when I saw BPC say almost the same thing as me.

<3


Seriously guys, taking this as "oh my god japan is so right we have to unban" is just as idiotic as ignoring the results out of hand for being "just one tournament". Even if the problem really is with the American metagame and the American mindset, that's not something that will fix itself overnight. But there are still important lessons to be learned here, and you'd have to be an idiot to not see it.

@Reflex: look at those ****ing sets.

 

[iRJi]

How do you justify making such a sweeping, drastic statement?

I wouldn't worry, it's the basic hype train. Remember when someone does something that interrupts the normal flow of how the game has operated, but then in 3-4 months gets shutdown? I remember when people said snake was a counter to MK, then it was diddy, then it was IC's, and well... You get the point.

 

[Omni]

I wouldn't worry, it's the basic hype train. Remember when someone does something that interrupts the normal flow of how the game has operated, but then in 3-4 months gets shutdown? I remember when people said snake was a counter to MK, then it was diddy, then it was IC's, and well... You get the point.

wat?

The hype train has been up and running for Nietono/Brood/Olimar for quite sometime now. Especially in Japan. It isn't interrupting the flow of the game; it is dictating the flow of the game.

 

[Kewkky]

Don't worry Omni, that's my face too when I saw you and BPC saying the same thing as me.

 

[AlphaZealot]

1: Otori==
2: Nietono==
3: Nairo==
4: ESAM==/
5: Ally==/
5: Kakera==/


1. Kakera & Otori==/
2. Mew2King & Anti==/
3. Gnes & Razer==/

And this is somehow going to be the results anti-ban leans on. There are an awful lot of masks in these results...

 

[Kewkky]

To be honest AZ, once you narrow it down to top 16 in singles and top 8 in doubles it doesn't seem THAT bad. But then again, there are circumstances that make this a funny tourney results turnout, like a ban looming over the horizon.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

1: Otori==
2: Nietono==
3: Nairo==
4: ESAM==/
5: Ally==/
5: Kakera==/


1. Kakera & Otori==/
2. Mew2King & Anti==/
3. Gnes & Razer==/

And this is somehow going to be the results anti-ban leans on. There are an awful lot of masks in these results...

Yes, because you seem to be intentionally missing the point.

 

[Sorto]

1: Otori==
2: Nietono==
3: Nairo==
4: ESAM==/
5: Ally==/
5: Kakera==/


1. Kakera & Otori==/
2. Mew2King & Anti==/
3. Gnes & Razer==/

And this is somehow going to be the results anti-ban leans on. There are an awful lot of masks in these results...

Who placed the next 2 spaces?

Or top 16?

Ocean, Adhd, richbrown, dehf, something like that?

And did ally use more snake or mk? And same for kakera?

My main argument is... how can we decide what is broken when it is clear that we are not at the top of the world in the metagame. Why not listen to a country that knows a little more about brawl then we do?

 

[Nicholas1024]

@Omni
Haha, I know what you mean. In the debate hall BPC and I are on complete opposite ends of almost every argument.

@BPC
I think you're exaggerating a bit here. Although the Japanese did some amazing things this tourney (Nietono made ADHD look silly in loser's bracket), Nairo performed on the same level as the Japanese, beating Kakera, beating Nietono (although he got revenge), and going very even with Otori before finally losing. ESAM also beat Kakera (in IC dittos), had close matches with Otori, and lost to Pikachu's worst matchup as well as one he doesn't play that regularly.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Omni
Haha, I know what you mean. In the debate hall BPC and I are on complete opposite ends of almost every argument.

@BPC
I think you're exaggerating a bit here. Although the Japanese did some amazing things this tourney (Nietono made ADHD look silly in loser's bracket), Nairo performed on the same level as the Japanese, beating Kakera, beating Nietono (although he got revenge), and going very even with Otori before finally losing. ESAM also beat Kakera (in IC dittos), had close matches with Otori, and lost to Pikachu's worst matchup as well as one he doesn't play that regularly.

You forget to mention that Esam also has ICs which is one of Olimar's bad match ups. He tried to go ICs against him and still got beat

 

[AlphaZealot]

Your argument is, based on a sample size of one tournament, that the US metagame is substantially behind Japan's metagame, and since we are behind we clearly don't know if MK should be banned. Further, since Japan has chosen to not-ban MK, and they are ahead of us, then clearly we should also not ban MK.

The problem is 1) the sample size of meeting Japan once a year is incredibly low. 2) Japan had how many players enter? How many did well? To say we are substantially behind I think would be an overstatement, especially considering in all other previous contests ever, going as far back as Melee, the US has been ahead. Finally, 3) A Japanese MK won...So even the best Japanese player is winning using which character? MK.

 

[Sorto]

You forget to mention that Esam also has ICs which is one of Olimar's bad match ups. He tried to go ICs against him and still got beat

If you wanna talk about impossible matchups then talk about rob beating our best MK.

Overwhelming matchups japan wins.

Unfavorable matchups japan wins.

Even matchups japan wins.

It didn't matter.

Nairo did great. And he showed a much more important truth. And that is, that only our MK metagame is at japans level. The rest of our characters are lacking. But as japan showed, other characters have much more evolution and metagame advancement left. Rob, Olimar, IC, etc

 

[SpongeJordan]

We're not looking at the results for characters, so much as results for location.

1st, Japan. 2nd, Japan. Every top US Brawl player just realized they're that much further from being the best.

I see no reason why we should limit our own metagame so that any other international events end in the same results. In fact, I think this will probably reinvigorate the anti-ban with a very valid point: We want to win. If Japan can expose our MKs, so can we. To ban is to give up.

 

[otter]

So you guys have been arguing about this ban for three years, finally decide on something, and now question yourselves based on the results of one tournament!? Not to mention that MK did extremely well at said event....

Don't start this **** again.

 

[Nicholas1024]

You forget to mention that Esam also has ICs which is one of Olimar's bad match ups. He tried to go ICs against him and still got beat

Nietono has a ton of experience in that matchup, and although Esam's IC's are good, I wouldn't claim he's the best with the character. Why do you think he went Pikachu the first two games despite Olimar being Pika's worst matchup?

 

[Omni]

1: Otori==
2: Nietono==
3: Nairo==
4: ESAM==/
5: Ally==/
5: Kakera==/


1. Kakera & Otori==/
2. Mew2King & Anti==/
3. Gnes & Razer==/

And this is somehow going to be the results anti-ban leans on. There are an awful lot of masks in these results...

Lol, AZ. You're posting a lot like, Xyro.

Like... deliberately omitting/ignoring important facts and only making arguments based on specific results that support your stance. Sure, let's ignore:

- Japan's ROB taking out M2K's Metaknight
- Two Nationals. Both of which had an Olimar outplace the entire US.
- The fact that Otori never wins in Japan and Nietono is the current best in what seems to be a more developed metagame
- Top 8/16 results and only look at Top 5 (lol)
- Esam

Like... there are clear examples of exceptional players who have clearly mastered their characters and have taken them to an entirely new level that the US has not achieved. And they have proven so by making such remarkable feats. We aren't the dominant country when it comes to Smash, and we should take a lesson or two from the more dominant countries if we want to be able to one day contend against them.

Or we can just ban MK and nullify any kind of real international competition. Ya' know. That sounds cool.

 

[Sorto]

Your argument is, based on a sample size of one tournament, that the US metagame is substantially behind Japan's metagame, and since we are behind we clearly don't know if MK should be banned. Further, since Japan has chosen to not-ban MK, and they are ahead of us, then clearly we should also not ban MK.

The problem is 1) the sample size of meeting Japan once a year is incredibly low. 2) Japan had how many players enter? How many did well? To say we are substantially behind I think would be an overstatement, especially considering in all other previous contests ever, going as far back as Melee, the US has been ahead. Finally, 3) A Japanese MK won...So even the best Japanese player is winning using which character? MK.

Banning a character should be a LAST RESORT.

Our argument in the US always was, we explored the options and MK is clearly banworthy.

Well you better take a second look, because Japan showed us another option, maybe it is time to get better at the game.

Japan beating US showed that there is a chance that at a higher level of play MK is not overpowered. If he was then Japan would have reached this conclusion and banned him.

Your banning MK prematurely. The metagame might have a little more evolution to go through first.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Nietono has a ton of experience in that matchup, and although Esam's IC's are good, I wouldn't claim he's the best with the character. Why do you think he went Pikachu the first two games despite Olimar being Pika's worst matchup?

If you want to talk about experience, then lets also bring up the obvious advantage Esam had since we were using the American stage list.

 

[Sorto]

Ban mk now and as a community, you never have a right to call the US the best at brawl. Japan made it work. They made a metagame with MK work at a level that seems to be higher then ours or at the very least equal to ours.

They proved it could be done. And that should be enough to have any proban that actually is open to suggestion to stop and think, maybe there is something to it. Maybe we are still being a little quick on banning a character.

 

[Omni]

Nah, Sorta.

We'd rather have more stages. It makes more sense to ban a character 3 years into the game than to remove a few funky stages.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There should at least be a new poll. Now, no one can complain that MK players would sandbag since the tournament is already over and they went in thinking their character was going to get banned.

 

[Tomato]

It is only a single tournament guys... Some people have off-days and some people have on-days. I think we are all taking ONE tournament a little too seriously. For the betterment of the US metagame, Meta-Knight is being banned to force the evolution of other characters. MK has evolved far beyond most other characters in the states, and the ban will make people choose other characters and develop them. I say once people up their game with the rest of the cast, I think MK could be reintroduced and mesh a little bit better, and not take 50% of the earnings throughout tournaments.

Forcing us to play with other characters is meant to counter the seemingly "insta-win" that is MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Seriously guys, where's the "Ban RC and Brinstar" poll? Where the **** is the "Ban RC and Brinstar" poll? As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, WC has about the same support for banning those two stages as SWF has for banning metaknight... What's going on? Why does the community opinion suddenly not matter for stages, neither of which were particularly missed at APEX?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How are you going to have character evolution if Brawl without MK is just going to become a game of counterpicks and double blinds?